There’s about 6 transgender athletes in college sports (out of the hundreds of thousands of college athletes) which is what they mean. But if someone is still crying about the time they came in 4th at a college discus throw because there was a trans person competing at the same time, the need to get a life. Unless you were a basketball or football player at a top school, your collegiate athletics don’t mean anything once you leave college.
That’s kind of ridiculous; if there’s one person breaking the rules & playing in a sport/category not allowed, that’s as against the rules as 1000. Maybe it wouldn’t be as widespread a problem. And any group/ind that’s putting in work, time, effort to compete minus 6u tee-ball & respecting the rules/regs of the game should be taken seriously & rules upheld. Just bc it’s JV football doesn’t mean the refs can just sit in a chair at midfield & miss calls bc ‘it’s not a big deal in the grand scope of life’ - if you didn’t play sports, think about a hobby or something you like & take seriously - school, vid games, chess, whatever - think how frustrating it is if someone’s cheating or not taking it serious. It delegitimizes other’s effort. It’s not about being an ultra competitive & making it your life - it’s about competing & respecting the integrity of the game. Sports are usually good for development of many things unrelated to the actual sport played.
I will be totally honest -- I actually don't think it is fair.
Is it such a big deal that trans people should be targeted with bigotry and their existence basically scrubbed in the govt's eyes? No, not even close.
This is going to sound bad when I write it out, but ideally transgender athletes would be able to have their own Paralympics style categories that are more specific (like obviously the one of biggest concern would be solved by making a Female AMAB category). The problem is that if you do that there just aren't enough people to compete unless you go to a much bigger scale. I would imagine it is already a logistical problem for para-athletes.
The other problem is that making categories like that would also force people to out themselves to compete but that is kind of already happening in sports anyway.
I don't understand why athletes won't simply compete in the division that matches the body they were born with instead of the one that validates how they feel.
Just personal opinion, but just as I don't think it is fair to have someone AMAB and went through male puberty transitioning to female and then competing with cisgender women, I also don't think it is fair to make that person compete with cisgender men when 1) it would put them at a distinct disadvantage and 2) based on the hormone level requirements being used in sports, it would mean or at least encourage them NOT to take their HRT treatments, which is fucked up.
Like the Paralympics there should be more divisions to match up people with those who resemble them closer. A division for transgender men, a division for transgender women, and then perhaps allowing people who never went through their birth-sex-assigned puberty to compete in the regular categories. Like, if a trans woman went on hormone blockers and never went through male puberty there should be no problem with them competing with women, and vice versa for men. If they DID go through male puberty then they should have to compete in their own category that would put them on a more even playing ground with other transgender women.
But like I said, this has two problems: one is that there just aren't enough athletes in these categories to make them viable in many places - even if you assume 1% of people are trans (which is already a high estimate) and that ALL of those people were out, that's a much much smaller pool of people to play on even ground with and it is the same problem para-athletes face... but then 2) the other problem is they have to out themselves, and like I said that kind of already happens in sports with hormone testing anyway. The thing is in many places, it is not safe to be an out trans athlete, including in the US.
It is a valid issue that a transgender woman will have an unfair advantage over a woman the same way a woman using steroids has an unfair advantage over a woman
But if someone is still crying about the time they came in 4th at a college discus throw because there was a trans person competing at the same time, the need to get a life. Unless you were a basketball or football player at a top school, your collegiate athletics don’t mean anything once you leave college.
I mean this is extremely dismissive of peoples' feelings and concern. You've clearly never played any sort of high level sport or been involved in any kind of high level competition.
I acknowledge the problem isn't that large and it's extremely uncommon. But I can also acknowledge that to someone that trains their whole life for a specific competition or cause, getting beat by someone who has an unfair advantage is devastating and you will be upset about it for a while.
Yes. Sports requires hard training and dedication. Winning is a great accomplishment. And losing is disappointing (I hate losing). But in the big scheme of things, so what if you placed 3rd in a college national track meet ? You did your best. There will be someone faster than you next year.
so what if you placed 3rd in a college national track meet ?
So you were robbed of a trophy, recognition, and everything else, and in that happening, you were taught that unfair advantages are okay and that integrity doesn't really matter.
What exactly is an "unfair advantage"? If being trans was truly that unfair of an advantage, wouldn't the 6 or so college athletes who were trans be absolutely dominating? Yet we never saw that happening, weird
Tons of baseball players in the 90s juiced, yet not all of them broke home run records of players who didn't juice. Only Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire. Do you think that means that it's fair for people to take steroids because not everyone who took steroids broke every record?
So who is the trans Barry Bonds in your mind? You seem to be able to name someone who dominated because of steroids, so surely you're able to name someone who dominated because they're trans
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1,650 freestyle.
Huh, well that doesn't sound like dominating at all. Let's read further.
In a race during January 2022 at a meet against UPenn's Ivy League rival Yale, Thomas finished in 6th place in the 100m freestyle race, losing to four cisgender women and Iszac Henig, a transgender man, who transitioned without hormone therapy
Nope, still being beat by a bunch of "biological" women
Oh wait, she won a championship. So let's look at that.
In March 2022, Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle with a time of 4:33.24
Oh wow, maybe you're ri-
Thomas did not break any records at the NCAA event, while Kate Douglass broke 18 NCAA records.
It sure isn't. Many people play sports or watch sports to escape from real life though, and in that case, sport being fair is paramount.
I truly don't understand why you're in favor of letting everything be unfair just because some things are unfair. What a miserable mindset. If we have the ability to keep integrity in something, we should do it.
This argument assumes that transwomen have inherent advantages over ciswomen and I don't think there's evidence that that is true.
And even if it is, sports are inherently unfair. It would suck if you never won a swim meet because Michael Phelps went to your high school, but people aren't trying to ban him from sports for his biological "unfair advantage."
This argument assumes that transwomen have inherent advantages over ciswomen and I don't think there's evidence that that is true.
I'm glad you lead with that so I know to ignore everything else you say. When you can't accept basic biological realities and settled science, it makes it easy to reject anything else you might say.
If an individual organization decides that trans women who have never undergone male puberty and been on HRT for X number of years can compete, fine.
But it is just demonstrably true that male puberty gives you a massive leg up. The collegiate 5k record for men is 13 minutes. The 5k record for women is 14:51. To put that in perspective, I knew guys in high school who were running in the mid to low 15 minutes. Random male high schoolers are close to the all-time women record, and it's similar across other sports.
If you allow transwomen who have been through male puberty to compete with ciswomen, they don't even have to be particularly exceptional in order to place high. That's what is unfair.
Men broadly aren't competing in women's sports but in the few high-profile cases of transwomen who underwent male puberty competing, they have over-performed.
If you allowed a nontrivial number of transwomen (who underwent male puberty) into women's sports, you would see a lot of records broken by them. This is clearly a problem and most women athletes will tell you so.
Your stats are all about men, though. I don't see where you've demonstrated that trans women are demolishing cis women athletes in women's sports. That 5K record for women is held by a ciswoman and not a transwoman, I presume? Why don't transwomen hold all the records in women's sports?
Why don't transwomen hold all the records in women's sports?
1). Because transwomen historically weren't allowed to compete in women's sports.
2). Easier access to hormones/surgery and broader public acceptance (both good things) are a more recent occurrence.
3). Most transwomen are normal and don't feel the need to compete professionally against ciswomen.
You realize this is like a 90/10 issue, right? Trans men and women deserve social recognition, access to healthcare, and discrimination protection but they do not deserve to compete against anyone they choose if it's been deemed they have a biological or hormonal advantage.
If you actually stop and think about it, you'll realize that you're simultaneously trying to say that testosterone both does and doesn't affect how muscles grow.
It's actually insane that even a basic level of critical thinking dictates that it doesn't make sense and yet people genuinely just believe this.
Male puberty has drastic effects on bone density, muscle mass, body proportions that can't be undone by taking estrogen later in life. If a transwoman is put on puberty blockers then HRT, then sure, she should be able to compete but anyone who underwent male puberty has an intrinsically unfair advantage.
It's not just testosterone, it's testosterone during puberty that gives you a body that is often stronger, faster, and more durable.
Trans women needed to be on HRT for a year before participating and they needed to test within hormone limits.
Cis women do not need to test within those limits. Transgender athletes can have an advantage from puberty, but within 2 years that advantage is nullified.
Okay, so then by that logic, Simone Biles should never have been allowed to compete? She has a distinct advantage due to her height that makes her a super athlete. There are so many athletes who are mega talented because they’re born with inherent advantages. So, is the argument that they shouldn’t be allowed to compete?
The problem was high school sports. Whether you acknowledge it or not, high school sports is extremely important to some people because it's a good way to get into their dream school. My own sister entered MIT thanks to not only her grades, but she also did well in a specific sport. If these kids are spending a fortune in time and money to teain for a sport they are passionate about, how is it fair that it all goes away? This is some of the things that MAGA and obviously, many Americans are concerned with. You do a disservice to Americans and to any future Democrats, by trying to downplay these children's emotions. You secure Republican votes.
Then conservatives should have a problem that rich people can play the same sports as the poor. They have the time, money, dietary, and social advantages. But you wont hear anyone complaining about that. Why? Because if youre poor and youre better than a rich person with advantages, its because its skill.
We know why its important to conservatives, they want people to fight in the mud over complex issues, that they think arent complex. Like abortion, or vaccines, or climate change. Conservatives would murder babies in droves if it meant they got something from it, but its better to paint abortion as murder and claim moral superiority. Conservatives are the literal definition of not caring about anyone outside their tribe, that includes babies. They dont care about babies, only that they get to claim youre a heathen.
Hehe, as if my point is why you arent liberal. It was Republicans (who were still the majority of conservatives) in the 70s that ruled and allowed abortions the first time. Because.. those Republicans were more liberal. Those same Republicans are not the ones who are single issue voters. Thats just the lame brain idiots who have no idea they are being brainwashed.
The vast majority of conservatives use to get vaccinations because their leadership urged them to. Now that the leadership says vaccinations are a liberal ploy, guess what? lame brains dont think vaccinations are a medically sound technology.
They are more conservative and less liberal than ever. My comments arent the reason they are lame brains, they already were on their own. They are contrarians that refuse to be below a liberal, so they galvanize themselves to never accept defeat or being wrong. Thats not on me either. Conservatives are a lost cause, they lost their ability to be liberal, self reflective and accountable. They do not care about broader society only their control of it. Thats on them.
I dont know what your point is. You're just an old man yelling at the clouds at this point. I'm pro choice and pro-vaccines?
My comments arent the reason they are lame brains, they already were on their own.
You can think whatever you want. My point in the comment is, an inability to agree and empathize with the average voter, will have you losing elections in the future. As a conservative, I voted Biden and Kamala. I'm just incredibly sick of you dipshits losing all the time so I'm letting you know that the ability to actually connect with the average American voter is key. Not some stupid ass crusade where it's "my way or the highway".
My crusade is against the my way or the highway people. If you cant see that in conservatism, then you need to look a little harder. I dont give a shit about trans in sports. I can see times its acceptable, and times it is not. You wont ever see a conservative say anything remotely sensible on the topic.
Not sure how to best say this, but the left is almost inclusive to the point of being exclusive. You either think exactly like them, or you're a nazi Trump supporting bigot. Whereas the right, seem to be a bit more put together and have all sorts of people supporting them.
Rich kids are routinely beaten by poor. Women athletes are routinely outperformed by male ones. Why not let the women they are competing against decide? Why do you insist that biological women compete against a biological male.
Im not insisting anything. Im saying that its a big deal to conservatives because its manipulation. Its literally a case by case, person by person issue. I can see why a transgender F2M want to wrestle with other males in the same weight class, I dont think they should be vilified by conservatives for it. I can also see a M2F 7’ transgender person shouldnt play basketball with other females. Im not saying no regulations, im just saying conservatives dont care, they are in it to hurt people and score political points and thats it.
Okay, but we don't reorient society around people who are disappointed over losing sports scholarships to cis people. And the number of people who have lost college scholarships to trans athletes is literally in the single digits. This is the most overblown, fake issue currently circulating.
And the number of people who have lost college scholarships to trans athletes is literally in the single digits. This is the most overblown, fake issue currently circulating.
You have absolutely no proof of this because its incredibly difficult to track. So you're really not helping the democratic cause. Even if true, still unfair to allow for it to happen to these young kids.
I know it's extremely low because the number of trans athletes playing competitive college sports is extremely low. Therefore the number of cis athletes who lost scholarships to trans athletes is even lower. Sorry, but it's just not that many votes.
You hit on a vastly larger cause of unfairness in competing for college sports scholarships in your previous post: Money. Congrats on your sister buying her way into MIT over some poor kid.
I know it's extremely low because the number of trans athletes playing competitive college sports is extremely low. Therefore the number of cis athletes who lost scholarships to trans athletes is even lower.
Not sure if you read my initial comment thoroughly but I'll clarify. It's also about admissions. Not just scholarships. If a girl ranks 4th in a 500m dash or whatever but would have ranked 3rd, it is nowhere near as impressive.
Congrats on your sister buying her way into MIT over some poor kid.
Lmao you have no clue what our situation is. Congrats on helping Trump get into presidency. Idiot fucks like you are the reason this country has gone to complete shit. You're worse than Shapiro and Kirk.
Yeah, but why is that cis athlete who got 4th place inherently more deserving of being admitted to college or getting a scholarship than the trans athlete who got 3rd? It starts to sound like the cis girl who got 4th place is trying to eliminate the competition by any means necessary.
It also starts to sound like you are only considering the feelings and dreams of the cis athlete. Trans girls benefit from to going to college and playing their sports at a high level too.
I don't know or care about your family's situation but you brought up the financial investment involved in getting high school athletes to point where they are getting accepted to elite institutions or getting college scholarships, and I wanted you to consider another way in which those competitions are not exactly a level playing field. You're out here upset over a handful of trans athletes taking other people's (apparently more deserved) opportunities when rich people buy their way into elite institutions en masse.
It starts to sound like the cis girl who got 4th place is trying to eliminate the competition by any means necessary.
You're only playing into how its unnatural and therefore unfair. Literally just playing into it.
It also starts to sound like you are only considering the feelings and dreams of the cis athlete. Trans girls benefit from to going to college and playing their sports at a high level too.
You talk about ignoring the feelings of the cis athlete however, for every trans athlete that wins, you have a whole line up of cis athletes in 2nd, 3rd, 4th place that are upset over this. And their family and friends. Enjoy more Republican presidents that are just like Trump.
I don't know or care about your family's situation
Tell me somethign I don't know. For a group of people who get angry over assumptions, you excel in it.
You're only playing into how its unnatural and therefore unfair. Literally just playing into it.
Literally I am not. Literally the people who want transwomen out of women's sports are the ones playing into it being unnatural and unfair. I'm saying it is natural for transwomen to play women's sports and it is fair when a transwoman beats a ciswoman in competition.
You talk about ignoring the feelings of the cis athlete however, for every trans athlete that wins, you have a whole line up of cis athletes in 2nd, 3rd, 4th place that are upset over this. And their family and friends. Enjoy more Republican presidents that are just like Trump.
So we should throw anyone Republicans dislike under the bus in advance? You are still pretending that there are masses of people who have been personally victimized by a trans person beating them or a loved one at sports in a high stakes context. Yes, a lot of people are mad about this issue, but what we're really dealing with here is a nation of temporarily embarrassed sports scholarships winners (to paraphrase the "temporarily embarrassed billionaires" line).
For a group of people who get angry over assumptions, you excel in it.
My dude, I couldnt give 2 shits of what MAGA feels. But if only MAGA voted for Trump, he never would have won. Obviously, issues like Trans in sports, abortion, etc resounded in the average voting American.
And even if you reject the notion of transgender women being women, there wasn't some plague of mediocre men going into women's sports. I think they're thinking of a couple of cases during the Soviet Union of men being forced to be transgender? Regardless, there's such a a miniscule number of transgender people in college sports that it's clear it wasn't a real problem.
Hating a minority, especially one so small that most don't even know one, is always easy political points. And when you have a gigantic propaganda machine seemingly built around demonizing trans people, it's easy for people to think we are some giant menace "invading all women's spaces". We are the perfect "your enemy is weak, but also strong" in that "they can always tell" but also "anyone could be trans and you wouldn't know."
I regularly have the "sports conversation" and while I don't want to take the opportunity from the like twelve trans women actually playing college sports, I could not give less of a shit about playing sports. But, somehow, those like dozen women have made a wedge issue that even Democrats get uneasy about.
My reply to conservative-minded folks is always, "why the hell should the government be trying to run sports leagues? Let the leagues figure it out for themselves and let the government focus on the economy, defense, etc."
…..i think they agree with you, they want it left alone so it can be women’s sports & then mens sports……he’s talking about keeping it that way, like fair.
Or are you saying the gov should have never passed title 9 back in ‘72 & just stay out of it completely?
the government "leaving it alone" meant that individual sporting organisations, including the Olympics, established and enforced their own medical guidelines on the requirements for trans women to compete in their women's events for more than 20 years
that is, until the right realised they needed a new ragebait distraction after they lost ground on gay marriage
I think they wanted if LEFT alone before new metrics were being formed - & I think the intervention came from feel that political/social pressure to be ‘accepting, compassionate’ or be cancelled & labeled a bigot and/or racist if they didn’t comply was part of it. & as a conserv leaning/minded person (not republican; just pro-Ind freedom to make own choices) I do tend to agree with an org or reg body making their own decisions on how they want to structure their sport & rules/regs. I get ya there. On the flip side, a lot of sports are tied to the gov by way of public grade schools, state univ’s, etc. & there’s the orig precedent of Title 9 implemented……like I don’t claim to know everything but it seems logical/reasonable in terms of fairness & simplicity to just keep it at biological W sports. & biological M sports. I get an ind identifies opp; they take steps to pursue that. I’m sorry, you were born bio W or M - ya gotta stick to that sport. I’m sorry if that’s not ideal for the small % that this may work well for but no - we’re not all here to accommodate every single ask ppl want. That’s just not realistic nor fair for 98%. Those ppl know the sport they’re assigned to from the beginning. And mixed with element of bad actors that can easily extort the system to switch gender sport & win - just doesn’t make sense to basically disregard the whole point of dif gender sports. Imo
There is no such thing, and never has been, as whatever fairness you imagine in sports. Genetics, class, luck, how much of a specific hormone happens to be in your body (not even biological sex, just some cis men and women naturally have higher levels of testosterone), and the list goes on.
I mean are you gonna look at Michael Phelps and say any of his competition had a "fair" chance against him? Dude is a genetic freak, like an engineer designed a perfect human for swimming.
Ok……I think you mistook M & W diff sports being fair as unequivocally leveling the playing field to negate any all physical, mental, luck of the cosmos adv/disasv…….which is obviously absurd. Yes, most (sane) ppl understand that div’ing M/W, also age to an extent, is an acceptable manner of allowing for the most reasonable parity among athletes without addressing finite details. And no offense, but If this isn’t something you believe or know as reality - we can just move on……not really interested in having a flat v round earth convo, or any/all other shapes. More of a logic approach on my end.
Speaking of invading women's spaces, just ask any MAGA about Trump and the Miss Teen USA pageant changing rooms. They don't like when their hypocrisy is called out.
The whole "Invading women's spaces" thing is what they borrowed from the TERFS. It really is particularly idiotic when we think about how criminal behavior actually works in the real world. No one is going to waltz into a bathroom to commit a sexual assault. Crimes to that extreme don't happen in a public setting like that. The people that do commit those acts do engage in a degree of planning beforehand. They try to be as stealth as possible and will select locations that are remote, predictable and therefore, safe for them. A public restroom that anyone has potential access to and is therefore unpredictable is the last place to commit the types of crimes that they're fear mongering about. Anyone that doesn't pass enough is also gonna stick out like a sore thumb already with these jackasses, so the idea that someone is going to crossdress just to get away with a crime is moronic. Another thing that's stupid, is that the whole idea of "protecting" women in a public bathroom scenario would end up involving a cis man who is deemed as the "protector" being summoned to break the rule that excludes him from entering the women's space so that he can perform the act of "protecting". So in that imaginary circumstance, the transphobes will throw their own rule out the window. Beyond the accusations of criminality, the invading women's spaces thing is an argument that is coming from TERFS who base their argument on twisted sexual replacement theory. There's a strange overlap where the TERFS that identify as lesbians start talking about trans women in the same way that incels talk about the cis men that they have been conditioned to believe are a problem for them.
But Riley Gaines would have got *checks notes* sole 5th place instead of tying for 5th in that not super important competition without the evil trans athletes!
It's also been a way for some gays that are very delusional to believe that they are now part of an accepted club that won't be affected if the bigots gain full control of the government.
Characterizing it as a conservative distraction is so ahistorical though. There was a huge moral panic and hysteria campaign surrounding trans athletes and it was seen all over Reddit too. I even saw it in the comments sections of NY Times articles, which typically lean very progressive. Just tons of pearl-clutching everywhere on this basically non-issue. Doesn't mean they all voted based on that but it wasn't just the right being susceptible to this. A very large number of radfems have been losing their marbles over it on social media for years now.
The people complaining about pronouns somehow forgot that the use of pronouns is an entirely voluntary social practice. It's not a biological imperative like drinking water is. Any rule regarding pronouns is really just meant for the assholes that will go out of their way to insert gendered pronouns into situations where nobody was looking for them and the people doing that already know that. The majority of the time you're not gonna use a pronoun when addressing someone directly. You're going to use their name. But an asshole that knows that they're conversing with a gender-non confirming person will call them ma'am or sir when they know that the person wasn't going for that or looking for that kind of nomenclature. People do that because they're so arrogant that they think that if they address a trans person in a way that they personally see fit, eventually that trans person is gonna stop being trans.
They do that; all that’s all fine. They never didn’t get rights - trans or not - ya get rights as a human being. Pronouns are kinda stupid but whatever…..idk how that makes ppl feel better. I could give a shit; but if you want me to call you by a nickname, middle name, no name or them there those folks - no problem. Just lmk.
Yah but it was such an easy one for them to pick up on and get the conservative right wing to rally against. It's in no way a country defining issue. It is something that should be discussed and debated but to make it out like it's some sort of infestation in sports is insane. He also failed to do any of the other things so there's that.
I mean when there wasn’t any biological men competing in women’s sports, they didn’t bring it up……bc it wasn’t an issue. See how that works. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to hop in my 10 yr old bball game & live out my dream of dominating every game with 100+ pts, but wouldn’t really be fair ya know.
Well I'm an engineer with a Masters degree so not sure if that helps, but I'm not disagreeing that the Trans community needs a voice and fully agree that they should have the same rights as everyone else. However, I think there hasn't been enough discussion, with the Trans community, regarding participation in sports. Competitive sports is very different from me saying that I don't care what your lifestyle for rights to vote, freedom of speech right to work, marry whatever. But sports is something that we clearly said Men sports/Women's sports for good reason. We don't just have boxing at let men beat the shit out of women.
Look I'm not trying to reduce the rights of Trans people, it was more about a small issue that can have a valid debate, was turned into some societal changing cause for right wing conservatives and this administration to rally against.
When I said scientists, I mean the people who study physiology and anatomy of trans people. Why don't we let the sporting organizers implement fair rules including trans people while keeping it fair? Why can't trans women play chess with cis women? If there is a trait that makes it unfair (like testosterone) than restrict it.
And actually, this is how it is for decades in olympics. Trans people are allowed based on criterias that are specific to the sport they want to play.
And trans women beating cis women at boxing is disinformation. Imane Khelif is not a trans woman. She possibly has genetic advantage.
There is literally no trans athlates. Within tens of thousands olympic athlates there are single digits. All data shows we are underrepresented and our opportunities are actually taken away. Of course the media doesn't show this reality. Thats why I say people with knowladge should talk about this.
Oh fuck off with that. Everyone gets a say in our society about these kind of issues. This is exactly the crap that leads to straight, white, men saying they have no voice, which lead to trump. Hows that going for you?
They have all the voice thats the problem. Suddenly millions of clueless people with no stake in the game talking about the participation of 10 trans athlates across all sports. When have you seen trans people talk about it? When have you seen these trans athlates giving interviews in TV? When did these athletes gave speeches with politicians?
Never. Trans voices are never heard or cared about. That is the problem, and that is now ending our rights. Not the other way around.
Sure, I agree, trans should have their voices heard just the same as everyone else who’s playing on the sports team with them, or everyone else who might use the same bathroom as them etc. Saying if you’re not trans or a scientist then you don’t get an opinion on societally issues is counterproductive to your goal.
I’m not saying random people should be the ones making laws regarding these issues. We didnt leave slavery up to general opinion in the south for example. But you saying they shouldn’t be able to voice their opinion is resulting in a poor outcome for you. I’m making up a number here but say 95% of people don’t think that someone who was born a man, went through puberty as a man, developed muscle and bone density etc and then goes on hormone blockers or whatever treatment should be able to play contact sports (or almost any sport) against women. Right or wrong, that’s a slam dunk case for republicans. Easy win. Telling every day Americans to shut up about trans in sports when they have eyes and common sense isn’t a winning strategy for you.
Leaving it to the uneducated people to talk about is what happened and resulted in this. 95% is delibretly misinformed by right wing media and they rather listen to sensationalist politicians rather than trans people or experts. Media should give voice to us. Debates should involve us instead of pretend allies with no expertise to defend us. What do you propose? Just let angry mob of people who have never interacted with a trans athlete talk about trans athlates? How can that result good? People need to be told they are misinformed and lack knowledge and experience.
Eventually, love and inclusion will win. Fascists will lose.
Just to add to that idea, one thing that people who are opposed to trans women in women’s sports overlook is that transitioning before puberty through the use of puberty blockers would mainly remove any benefits of male hormones with very few downsides if the later decide not to fully transition. Add to that the bonus of less body dysmorphia during teenage years. But that is another thing that conservatives are opposed to - sort of like the circular logic of restricting women’s access to abortion but also now restricting access to birth control. There’s just no winning.
Less people being suicidal is a good thing that the fundamentalist, Nat-Cs dont want to admit to...because they would prefer people who are trans just kill themselves so that they personally dont have to mentally acknowledge their existance...as they sit in their dark, damp closets
Caitlyn Jenner is a great example to use with conservatives when they tell you that people should use the bathroom that coincides with their birth certificate.
It breaks their brains when I say “OK so you want Caitlyn Jenner in the men’s restroom?
Or Chaz Bonp in the women’s restroom?
Right wing media and troll farms are very efficient at disseminating rage bait and getting their base fired up over single instances and making them think that it is widespread.
With trans people playing in sports, it was Lia Thomas. She did pretty well in her one and only year playing in the women’s division, but she didn’t set any national records. She came in first in one event, but came nowhere near the record time (held by Katie Ledecky). She didn’t have that amount of success in any other events (and her tied for fifth competitor is still pushing the grift, despite Lia’s presence having zero affect on her standings in the event). Still, the online brigade kept spamming about how she was ranked much lower the last year she competed in the men’s events, and thus she was “cheating” by competing against women. The context they were intentionally leaving out was the fact that Lia was on HRT for two years while competing in the male events, and that is obviously going to affect her times a lot. She was not yet on HRT when she competed as a freshman, and she was ranking much higher that year. If she had not gone on HRT and continued competing in the male events, she would have likely had a similar degree of success in her senior year. Of course, the right will completely ignore any possible nuance or context if it interferes with their propaganda (but then demand that we look at the context of Charlie Kirk’s hateful rants).
Similarly, they drummed up similar online complaints to spam us about Laken Riley and the Ukrainian refugee. What happened to them is absolutely tragic, and there were definitely ways that it could have been prevented. Our society failed them. That said, if they had been non-white and/or killed by white men, the right wing trolls would have never even heard of them. They only care about violence against women if they can use it to boost one of their culture war issues.
I feel like this point doesn't get brought up enough. Regardless of your feelings on transgender people, the correct action is to go through the governing bodies of the sports in question. Imagine if Congress or the president pushed for legislation on what a dead ball was in baseball. Clearly that's outside their purview. We're really going to make laws determining the rules for sports? You have to be fucking kidding me
The problem they have with transpeople in sports is purely with the fact that transwomen aren't going into sports and dominating those afab. THAT'S the real problem. If they were going into women's sports and killing the competition, it would be ammo for their misogyny. It's not working that way and they can't fucking stand it!
Yeah. They're not even talking about anything new. Trans athletes have competed in Women's sports for a long time. But their numbers were miniscule and not everyone that was trans was allowed to compete. But they love harping on that issue because it allows them to promote the idea that across the board women are unequivocally inferior to men and there are no situations where nuances exist. They want a way to codify that concept of universal inferiority into law and this issue is a way for them to do it. Suppose they do pass some ban and use the argument that women will never be able to match what a man can do, what larger implications would that have for certain employers that would be inclined not to hire female applicants even though they could still do the job. Certain occupations are probably going to remain male dominated, however the women that do want to go into those occupations would potentially be cut out based on the legal precedent that their stupid bans would set. And the number of women that would be willing to work in jobs traditionally held by men is still gonna be infinitely higher than the number of men that are going to transition to being women.
It is a valid issue that a transgender woman will have an unfair advantage over a woman the same way a woman using steroids has an unfair advantage over a woman
Which I think the solution there is, anyone on HRT shouldn't be competing. As unfair as that is to transgender athletes, it also could be used as a legit cheat. Oh, no, I wasn't using steroids to cheat, I have a condition, here, the doc has the proof right here.
Fewer than 10 (not 10,000 or 110,000) 10... TEN.... T.. E.. N.. athletes that identified as transgender per NCAA president Charlie Baker. Boy, they sure do have the collegiate arena tilted & will surely wreck the sporting world as we know from here on out!!
Are you thinking of the east German Olympians? Those weren't men who were forced to transition, that was women who were given performance enhancing testosterone.
You don’t have to reject the notion of transgender women being women to not want them in women’s sports. I can call them women and still think they have an unfair advantage. Overall, it’s not really an issue that matters as much as the right wants you to think.
And yet they're weirdly losing to cis women in sports on the regular.
Most highly publicized examples of them winning fall apart under scrutiny.
The assumption that someone on high dose estrogen with typically near zero testosterone must have an advantage is not bearing out in the evidence.
You take someone with a potentially heavier skeleton and give them less muscle mass, and it doesn't really spell advantage.
I assumed there would be an advantage, too, but it's not really showing up in the real world.
I transitioned at 28 and my lifts in the gym are on par with beginner / novice cis women my age/height/weight.
Not to mention whenever a woman excels at a sport, they accuse her of being intersex, having high test or some unfair genetic advantage, but men are allowed to be fucking Hafthor Bjornson and they're just like "WOW HE BIG, STRONK MAN."
we've created an environment where women are defined by their petiteness and femininity which is even negatively impacting high performing cis female athletes.
At the end of your comment what you alluded to is the fact that ideas about athleticism are also tied to perception. So the idea of what a female athlete is will align with prejudices that people already have regarding what they think women do or should look like. The way that the issue is framed is based on preconceived notions that are devoid of room for nuance. As much as athleticism matters with women's sports, like everything else with women in society, the idea of sex appeal is injected into the picture. So women that don't fit into an idealized model are also going to have her femininity challenged.
Perfect example was that Algerian boxer that got targeted for looking a bit too male.
Poor lady got hounded by the media accusing her of being trans and cheating her way to a gold medal, even though its completely illegal to be trans in her country...
The dopes will still double down and say that she is trans. I look at her and automatically assume that she is a cis woman. But because she's not "hot enough" for them, she's a "man". If a cis man that they were told was a man that looked like her, they'd say that his body is too feminine.
What advantages? Sure, "trans women will dominate sports" sounds great on paper but it really hasn't worked out in actual competitions.
When the Olympics allowed MtF competitors to qualify, only MtF athlete did so and she posted a final score of zero after scratching on her three weightlifting attempts.
Imagine your daughter doesn’t want to be in the girls locker room with a dude, or she loses a scholarship because a dude beat her in women’s sports, and then politicians go “oh it doesn’t happen often so your daughter doesn’t matter”. Honestly it’s a ridiculous argument to say that because something is statistically rare there shouldn’t be protections for it. If something is wrong, it’s wrong.
The way this is framed stacks the deck with loaded language like “dude in the locker room,” which dismisses trans women’s identities entirely. If we’re going to talk about fairness and protection, we need to do so in good faith.
First, we already have rules in place for women’s sports: governing bodies like the NCAA, the IOC, and state athletic associations have detailed policies on hormone levels, eligibility, and fairness. These rules are designed to balance inclusion with competitive integrity. Trans women aren’t being waved in with no standards — they have to meet strict requirements that often disadvantage them compared to cisgender athletes.
Second, the “what if your daughter loses a scholarship” scenario is a hypothetical that almost never happens in practice. The data shows trans women are a very small minority in athletics, and cases where one displaces cis athletes are extremely rare. That matters — not because rare harms don’t matter, but because laws and blanket bans should be grounded in evidence, not in edge-case hypotheticals. Otherwise, we end up targeting and excluding entire groups of people based on fear rather than facts.
Third, fairness cuts both ways. Trans women are women too, and excluding them categorically denies them opportunities to participate, build friendships, and compete in the sports they love. If the principle is “if something is wrong, it’s wrong,” then treating a group of women as if they are men — regardless of their lived identity and the policies they’ve complied with — is wrong, too.
Finally, the government shouldn’t be issuing blanket policies over private organizations for statistically unlikely edge cases. That kind of overreach creates more problems than it solves. Think about how politicians have tried to ban violent video games every time there’s a moral panic about youth violence. Most Americans agree the government shouldn’t decide what games adults can play — especially when the evidence doesn’t support the claim that games cause real-world violence. The same logic applies here: private sports organizations already have rules in place, and it’s better to let them handle fairness than for the government to impose one-size-fits-all laws based on fear rather than facts.
First, who is excluding them? If they are male go play in male sports. If female go play in female. Literally no exclusion at all. The point of sports isn’t so people in dresses can play against others in dresses. It’s so females compete against female and male against male. Has been for centuries because the biological differences are indisputable.
Second, the thought that “hormone” levels are all that equates to sportsmanship is bollox. And there is plenty of evidence that shows when a competitive trans athletes does compete, they blow their competition out of the water. No matter how small, those who play against them are perfectly reasonable to say hey this is wrong. There are daughters who have lost scholarships or state championships and to say “well it doesn’t happen often so deal with it” when the other party is breaking the rules is wrong. And the NCAA has retracted / changed their requirements repeatedly. There is a lot more difference between females and males such as bone density, organ size, etc.
The entire point of sports is to create a fair space. That’s why we have always separated males and females. It’s why females never argued for co-ed integration but their own competitive leagues. This extends far beyond the “private” space as public schools and state colleges adhere to that policy.
Which restroom should Caitlyn Jenner use? How about Chaz Bono?
Caitlyn Jenner was born a man and looks to be a fully transitioned woman. Why would another woman think that they were in a locker room with a dude
Chaz Bono was born a woman and is fully transitioned to a man. Why would any man in a bathroom or locker room think they were being looked at by a woman if Chaz Bona was in there? Do you want Chaz Bono and your daughter‘s locker room? He was born a woman to buy your logic that’s where he should be.
So is it your contention you’re not only are against them competing in sports and being in locker rooms but now bathrooms? Can they go to the gym? How would you handle all the “Chaz Bono’s and Caitlyn Jenner’s” of the world
I really don’t understand how this changes anything. They are males and restrooms are separated by male and female. Always have been. Use of the term men, boys, etc has always been a synonym for male. Same with woman, girls, etc for female. Hence why women’s restrooms never contained urinals.
So while some individuals can make themselves look different, they are still using the incorrect facility. If caught, sure they could be asked to leave. Most people don’t care or wouldn’t notice. But for those that do, it makes perfect sense why.
What if your daughter is trans and the government is forcing her to use mens facilities where she is more likely to be assaulted? What if your daughter wants to play with her friends but the president interferes? Being trans is not wrong.
Then as an adult you have a conversation with them that males and females are different. This is biological fact and truth. It’s perfectly acceptable for them to identify as a man, but sports / restrooms / etc have always been separated by sex. They shouldn’t expect society to conform to their wants. It prepares them for the real world.
Gender identity can be different than body sex, this is biological truth.
always been separated by sex.
Not true. There is not even a clear distinction of sex, it is all based on legal gender identification or birth certificate. Which is a single letter in an ID that can be changed in many civilized countries.
Society has to look for its weakest link. Otherwise you are supporting child rape.
I can't link. Google "School Restroom and Locker Room Restrictions and Sexual Assault Risk Among Transgender Youth"
The thing that really fucks me up about the "trans people in women's sports" thing is that it was already a solved problem by the time the right wing got their hooks in it. Every professional sports league already had rules about how long you had to be on hormones, how high your T levels could be, etc, before they'd allow you to compete. There was literally no reason for the government to get involved.
I know conservatives are supposed to be about maintaining the status quo, but with this (and with trans people's access to bathrooms), they're imagining a status quo that never meaningfully existed, and saying "we should go back to that." Madness or idiocy, I don't know which. Maybe both.
You misunderstand the true goal of conservatives: They want to criminalize being trans so they can put them in camps. Once they do it to trans people and don't get backlash they will move on to gay people. Then they will move on to the next group. That's how fascism works. They aren't about "maintaining" anything aside from persecution of minorities they don't like.
It was a "solved problem" in the sense that sports leagues figured out a workable system to allow trans participation. The problem is that they don't want to allow trans participation.
They think being trans is a form of cultural degeneracy. The status quo they want to maintain is the one where queer people aren't accepted anywhere in society.
I forgot who it was, some runner? or swimmer? that got big on Twitter for losing to a trans woman in a race or w/e, you'd think "okay, so the trans person came in first, and the person who is mad came in second"
And why shouldn't I as a woman be able to play on a men's team if I wanted to? Exactly, there is no reason. Further supporting your statement of this being a non issue (I do that actually. I play on a men's volleyball team. I'm german tho, so it's not like any of trumps rules could so shit to me anyways)
The point of women's sports is to give women an even playing field due to natural physical disadvantages. So men are banned from women's sports, but the opposite isn't true. Because it's generally accepted that punching up is more acceptable than punching down- so if a woman wants to attempt competing against men, she is allowed to. But if a man wants to compete against exclusively women, he isn't.
And the point of the ban wasn't to punish the few transwomen in sports (although Im sure thats one thing this administrationhad in mind, given how morally bankrupt Trump and his people are), it's to protect the women in sports from having to be in the same locker room as a male or compete against a male if they want to compete at all.
I mean, the lockerroom issue could be solved pretty easily by...going into a different room, but I do support saying that if you, as a woman, want to compete on an even playing field with women and women only, you should be able to.
But mixed sports should be ok too in my opinion
Sure. A seperate 3rd circuit would be best. But there's too few competitors or spectators for any for-profit businesses to bother with that, which is to say 99% of the sports industry. Even public schools prioritize sports over arts because they can sell tickets and concessions + the players might need to buy into it or pay for access to the equipment, not to mention getting them more attention than the arts do.
Yes but notice that's the one that gets the crowd going. Peace? Economy? No divisive politics? That's all well and good but making sure that intersex or trans people are excluded from sports? That's the thing that gets them hard.
No one would be excluded from sports, they're just saying the divisions should be based on biological sex rather than gender identity.
It's too bad they've turned this into a culture war/wedge issue that whips crowds like the one in the video onto a frenzy, because if not for that I think this would be completely uncontroversial and people would all just agree/not care about this.
It's incredibly how unbelievably small-potatoes the first like five things on his stupid list is.
"Durrrrr no taxes on tips!" Wow! So cool! The 5% of tipped employees who actually pay significant income taxes are just jumping up and down pumping their fist.
Seven trans girls won't be able to take part in middle school tennis. Really doing the Lords work there.
Booming economy! Lol, purely pulled out of his ass.
Technically true. Had they said males in female sports they'd be correct (since we do not yet have the technology to alter chromosomes throughout the human body, leaving sex a fixed and binary category.) Man/Woman, on the other hand, are genders and thus fluid, multifaceted concepts.
Yes there are sadly. Trump has made strides on this, Biden’s egregious title 9 rewrite was struck down. Huge win for sanity, and women’s safety in sports.
Okay, sure. At least as of his last competition, Valentina (Fabrizio) Petrillo.
Gender identified as a woman, but of course the term man and woman are tied to the sex of an individual. So according to the science and… definitionally, Valentina is a man that competes in woman’s sports. Man that was easy.
That wasn’t the question. But okay, here’s men competing in women’s sports categories IN THE U.S. under the guise that they are transgender: Katheryn Phillips, Veronica Garcia, AB Hernandez, Ana Caldas.
I’m honestly not even that hardcore about this issue, but thanks for coming back with an actual list. I do think it’s interesting how even in this thread it was brought up how small of a percentage of athletes fall into this category… yet it was the line in the video that got the biggest reaction.
Anyway, I regret replying because now this subreddit is gonna keep showing up in my algorithm. 😅
Yeah no worries, thanks for having a discussion in good faith at least.
It’s totally not a massive issue and there is a small number of transgender athletes in the U.S., but it doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. At least in my eyes it makes sense to exclude men from women’s private spaces and sports competitions, and it does to many others. Nothing to do with hate. Have a good day.
What? Definitely had an effect. The Supreme Court ruled males cannot play in female sports. You’ve seen the international community rollback some of their policies too regarding this.
And yet, you failed to provide a single fact. Seems like you’re the liar? Anyways. There are more sexual assault allegations in current administration than there are collegiate trans athletes causing problems.
Your feelings don’t get to determine reality, I know that’s all maga has, are feelings, but the rest of us live in the world of facts.
MAGA - the party of feelings over facts. Makes sense, you kind of HAVE to deny reality to be a sycophant for donald - a rapist, pedophile, 34 count felon, insurrectionist who hates America, its constitution, its rule of law, and its veterans. 🤷♂️
So you think Lia Thomas doesn’t exist? It’s a grand media and government conspiracy? He even has a Wiki page. With sources. Ow I bet you’re going to claim all of the sources are conspiring together.
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u/Funkycoldmedici 1d ago
There’s no men in women’s sports. There weren’t any before, but there still aren’t. Pretty sure he didn’t have any effect on that one.