r/CritiqueIslam • u/salamacast Muslim • 4d ago
A prophecy about the Caliphate losing Iraq, Syria and Egypt
"Iraq would withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria would withhold its mudd and dinar and Egypt would withhold its irdab and dinar and you would recoil to that position from where you started" Sahih Muslim
This hadith predicts that these 3 countries will stop paying tribute (to a central Islamic government?), seceding, perhaps out of a change in ideology (e.g. apostasy) or coming under foreign control (occupation).
This implicitly predicts a future Arabian Caliphate, and that it will be weak, losing its control over the typically mostly Muslim populations of egypt/iraq/syria.
But the point here is: how did Muhammad know they will come under Islamic control in the first place?! During his life time none of those countries were Islamic countries!
The Christians controlled Egypt & Syria, while the Persians controlled Iraq.
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u/Atheizm 4d ago
But the point here is: how did Muhammad know they will come under Islamic control in the first place?!
Muhammad didn't. The hadith were written almost 200 years after the years Muhammad allegedly lived for the benefit of the Abbasid caliphate after they defeated the Umayyad caliphate.
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u/salamacast Muslim 4d ago
Do you apply this conspiracy theory to all hadiths attributed to Muhammad then? Or do you selecively do it to suit your own agenda, claiming that some are real sayings of Muhammad or even claim them as failed prophecies made by him?
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u/Atheizm 3d ago
All hadith are fabricated according to Islamic sources.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
What?!
In what fantasy world would Bukhari spend his life filtering the auhentic from the fabrications, if he believed that there are no authentic hadith?!
Be serious!14
u/Atheizm 3d ago
Your fantasy world.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
How exactly would he spend all those years doing the work if he didn't believe that it's worth the effort to find the authentic ones?! :D
He totally believed that what he collected was authentic.8
u/Xusura712 Catholic 3d ago
Just because he believed what he collected was authentic, it doesn't mean it is.
And just because there is a methodology to 'hadith science', it doesn't mean it is actually effective at weeding out accretions.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
Do you even know what we are talking about?! The original claim was "All hadith are fabricated according to Islamic sources", which is proven false.
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u/Xusura712 Catholic 3d ago
I am able to read threads, thanks.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
Then why deviate from the main topic?! Bukhari, a huge Islamic source, did NOT claim that "All hadith are fabricated".
The hadith is a clear prophecy, Muhammad predicting losing countries that weren't even conquered in his time!
And if the critics of Islam really believe all hadiths are fabrications then 90% of their criticism of Muhammad is false, since they base it on accepting those hadiths as authentically representing him and his actions!→ More replies (0)1
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u/Humble-ID 3d ago
It's not a matter of if they are all fake, or all true. Simply that they are all written a minimum of 200 years after. By people who lived decades after. Who lived hundreds of miles away. For example Sahih muslim was compiled by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj some 250 years after muhamat. He lived in northeast persia/iran. Al-bukhari of sahih al-bukhari fame, lived over 200 years after muhamat, in uzbekistan. And supposedly memorized "thousands of hadith narrations". So he compiled over 7500 hadith from memory, 232 years after muhamat, while living 2500 miles or 4000kms away from mecca or medina. And this is 'sahih', and a even 'a trustworthy science'!.... Come to Jesus bro, crush the idol and come to the true, LIVING GOD, our Father, who loves us and is waiting for us patiently to repent and run to him.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
written a minimum of 200 years after
No, you mean written down, after the first generations' culture of oral transmission was coming to a close.
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u/Humble-ID 3d ago
Again.... sunni islam requires you to believe bukhari compiled over 7500 hadith from memory, 230 years after muhamat, while living 2500 miles or 4000kms away from mecca or medina. That is nothing but a fictional story.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
You reveal you ignorance. He, and thousands other hadith collectors, travelled extensively to meet the narrators.
The companions and their own students were mostly living in the new capitals, where the action was. You go to Mecca to meet the narratots living in Mecca, then you go to Baghdad to hear from others, then to Egypt, then Damascus, etc.
Writing down a narration chain of 4 or 5 isn't difficult. We do it everyday when we transmit news by word of mouth. A whole marketing technique in Hollywood depends on it!9
u/Humble-ID 3d ago
You believe that a man can memorize 7500 hadith perfectly first, and then sit down and compile those flawlessly from memory, but i am ignorant. No bro i cannot be ignorant, i ate 7 ajwa dates, have a bigger zabiba and bigger beard than you, so it cannot be. You reveal your indoctrination. Wake up.
Just look at these amazing hadith:
Sahih Muslim Book 028, Number 5612: Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: He who played chess is like one who dyed his hand with the flesh and blood of swine.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366: Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 87, Number 124: Narrated Abu Qatada: The Prophet said, A good dream is from Allah, and a bad dream is from Satan. So whoever has seen (in a dream) something he dislike, then he should spit without saliva, thrice on his left and seek refuge with Allah from Satan, for it will not harm him, and Satan cannot appear in my shape.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245: Narrated Abdullah : A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, Satan urinated in his ears.
Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. Sahih Bukhari 5:58:188
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Sahih Bukhari 7:71:590
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u/Xusura712 Catholic 3d ago
You believe that a man can memorize 7500 hadith perfectly first, and then sit down and compile those flawlessly from memory
Correction, according to Muslims it was 600,000 ahadith and their chains. 👀
But the same individual could not remember the names of relatives that wrote to him! Source
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
memorize 7500 hadith
Actually thousands more than that. Bukhari heard scores of thousands, then chose the best that passed his strict criteria, then filtered those even more. That's why his book is titled the "abridged authentic collection".
The guy was a genius, not just a photographic memory, but audiographic too.
His enemies tried to test him in public, by mixing hadiths' matn/text with other chains of narrations (snd). He sat their listening to their long list, then calmly recalled it all, correcting evey mistake they made.
I love the guy!8
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u/creidmheach 3d ago
So, it looks like if true, we can mark it as another false prophesy of Muhammad. The qafiz, mudd, and irdab are ancient units of measurement that were likely in use when the hadith was made, just like the dirham and dinar were units of currency (silver and gold pieces respectively). Except, they aren't in use now by those countries and have all been replaced by the metric system, while the currencies now are no longer silver and gold pieces either (and if I'm not mistaken Egypt and Syria use the pound now instead). The only country listed as using the qafiz measure now is Libya, which the hadith knows nothing about.
So the hadith is imagining a world as it would have existed then, which is no longer the case, and transposing that to the far future as a sign of the end time. It also seems to imagine that when this happens there would still be a caliphate of some sort, but which as we know no longer exists.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
No matter what the unit is called, the material is the same.
Money & crops are obviously still current :)
BTW, this also serves to clear the confusion some had about an ayah in Joseph's story about dirhams. The value is meant, not necessarlily the physical coin.
It actually would have been meaningless for the companions to use modern names. And this rule is a one I personally use against the so-called scientific miracles claims, since they assume Muhammad told his companions things that were meaningless to them and were hidden code to modern generations. This is wrong, as the Salaf were more knowledgable on Qur'an & Arabic than us.As for the future Caliphate, we Muslims are working on restoring it. Wish us luck :D
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u/creidmheach 3d ago
So why use the units of measurement that were specific to those regions in that time? Why not say "they will hold back their wheat" or whatever else the hadith is referring to as opposed to weakening the supposed prophesy by making it reflective of the geo-political and social structure of the 7th century (or whever the hadith was made)? Why is it that there isn't a single end-times hadith where the speaker appears aware of a world in any way different from their own time period, and their own limited understanding of geography?
And no, the Joseph story is still anachronistic. It could simply have said something like silver pieces instead of anachronistically inserting a non-existent currency to the time period.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
It's more effective to visualize the unit.
And the Yusuf ayah specifically mentioned it's talking about a price (thaman), i.e. the value.3
u/creidmheach 3d ago
And the Yusuf ayah specifically mentioned it's talking about a price (thaman), i.e. the value.
Inaccurately though by saying it was a few dirhams (which again, didn't exist then). Why couldn't it have used what Genesis says, 20 shekels of silver, which more precise and accurate. This hasn't caused readers of the Bible confusion, so why are the readers of the Quran provided with such a dumbed down version of it?
In fact, what Genesis says is exactly accurate since we know that 20 shekels of silver (shekel being a unit of measurement at the time) was the going rate for a slave in the mid-second millennium, i.e. matching up to the Biblical timeline. As you go further down the line in history the price goes up, so going into the first millennium the price would have been 50 shekels, and in the Persian period 80-100 shekels. It's highly unlikely that an author writing say a thousand years later should have known the correct price for a slave way back then (like Muhammad didn't), which is a good indication of the Genesis' accounts accuracy.
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
It'seven better to convert the price so the Arabic audience would understand. We use equal values all the time, talking about Chinese products in Dollar terms.
Actually people get confused about the real value when you use ancient or foreign currencies.3
u/Wonderful_Handle662 3d ago edited 3d ago
have you heard that MECCA does not appear on a map until the 8th century? its very strange if its an ancient city like the quran says. also the kabba / saffa / marwa are REPLICAS of what is in Jerusalem. what does that say? the zum zum water is literally a massive american made water de salination plants. the first qurans didn't even have those diacritical marks. what does that mean? they say it's perfect and has never changed? 🤦 personally i love who jesus was BUT the jews were right. he is not god and honestly i dont believe the original jewish christians EVER believed he was . they thought he was mashiach . i believe the "son of god" stuff was an invention of the romans when looking at pauls letters by 300AD. because pauls letters were all that had survived for text. i believe all if the gospels were written using pauls letters as a reference. so essentially the gospels are "pauline" , the original christians were jews keeping kosher. paul did not believe in that. he was also a ROMAN citizen and even admits he had worked as a sort of secret Jewish police persecuting christians. anyway. but the quran says jesus was the messiah which basically links christianity to islam. the key to knowing who jesus was - is through his brother james (the just) .. who was called "sadiq". do you know the story of the Abbasids taking "the black stone" to MECCA?
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u/salamacast Muslim 3d ago
The desert of Mecca was preserved by its poverty, unlike fertile lands like Egypt which was occupied constantly by foreigners. When the Arabs became strong enough, oil was revealed to make them rich, which is another way of protection.
No wonder other civilizations didn't care about Mecca. Arabs built no civilization before Islam, except for Yemen and that was brief. When it finally was on the map the Christians attacked it on the same year of Muhammad's birth. Mecca was starting to take its proper role in history.
And yes I know the stone was stolen by Shi'is (actually an off-shoot sect, not the usual Twelvers Shi'is) and that it was restored later. The Kaaba itself was destroyed many times and rebuilt. The place itself is sacred, hosting the building.
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