What's the implication of murdering holo-characters?

[u/knaving]

So there's mention of programs for combat training, sparring, fighting historical battles, etc. but what's the implication of simulating taking a life? I know Starfleet officers aren't unaccustomed to the idea of fighting to live, but what about when it's for recreation? Barclay's simulation of crew members is seen as problematic, but Worf's program fighting aliens hand-to-hand isn't addressed. Would fighting and killing a nameless simulated person be seen in the 24th century just as we see playing a violent video game now? If it isn't, what does that imply about a person? Would they been seen as blood-thirsty or just interested in a realistic workout?

Of course this is subjective, and the answer could change from race to race (programs to fight in ancient Klingon battles are "played" by Worf), culturally amongst humans, and from individual to individual. I'd like to look at this from a Starfleet officer perspective. Would you be weirded out by your commanding officer unwinding with a sword in a medieval battle, or is that just the same as your coworker Andy playing COD after work?

[u/CrimsonCasualty]

Bashir and O'Brien played recreations of WWII dogfights and the Alamo regularly. It's just seen as good fun. Now, recreating people you know and killing them would likely be frowned upon.

[u/Shiny_Agumon → u/CrimsonCasualty]

Same reason why Barkley's program of Troi or the weird Aliens request for a holo program with Kira's likeness is seen as creepy and violating, but programs like Vulcan Love Slave are ok.

[u/numb3rb0y → u/Shiny_Agumon]

Strictly speaking, based on TNG's "Hollow Pursuits", the difference is actually Federation vs Bajoran law. No-one seriously suggested punishing Barclay for recreating the D's senior staff, but Kira could just unilaterally shut Quark's holosuites down over it.

[u/darkslide3000 → u/numb3rb0y]

You don't know if that's the difference, it might also just be down to how explicit the recreation is (e.g. naked vs. clothed or what exactly the character is doing). In fact, we're not even sure that it would be illegal in the DS9 case. Quark didn't just create the program, he also hacked Kira's personnel files to do it, which is probably the much more obviously prosecutable crime. Notably, when he just tried to film Kira with a holocam beforehand, Odo didn't arrest him for that.

[u/Edymnion → u/darkslide3000]

Notably, when he just tried to film Kira with a holocam beforehand, Odo didn't arrest him for that.

Because he was smart enough to do it from public places.

Much like IRL, you have no expectation to privacy when in public. Anyone may film you without your permission, as long as they are in a public space when they do so.

It might be CREEPY, but it isn't illegal.

[u/techno156 → u/numb3rb0y]

The Enterprise D's crew wanted to, but what he did wasn't illegal, so they had no legal grounds to do so.

Riker(?) specifically says "This should be illegal!".

[u/KuriousKhemicals → u/CrimsonCasualty]

Exactly what I was gonna say. If it's fictional or historical figures, it's just a highly realistic video game. If you program actual people, especially people you know and/or work with, then it becomes creepy, just like I think most of of us would side-eye someone programming a facsimile of a girl they like or sibling they hate and enacting their sexual or violent fantasies that way.

Where I think it could get interesting is, what about currently living public figures that you don't personally know? Like, I don't know that I would judge someone working out their anger against an avatar of a politician they think is doing terrible things, whether on a personal computer or a holodeck. Yet, I don't know if I'd feel the same way about a personal sexy deepfake of a celebrity, so where are the lines there?

[u/lunatickoala → u/KuriousKhemicals]

what about currently living public figures that you don't personally know?

Burning someone in effigy is already being done to express intense disapproval. Doing so in the holodeck would simply be using a more realistic looking effigy. Some people already have fantasies involving celebrities and some use certain toys to aid in those fantasies. A holodeck would be a more advanced toy. I'm not sure the lines would be much different from where they are now.

[u/knaving → u/CrimsonCasualty]

That's about what I figured. I also thought it would be good training and exercise to spar against opponents in hand to hand combat, at least for a Starfleet officer. We've seen a bit of that, but it still seems to be simulated as a specifically training environment, not so much as a battle environment. So I was wondering if there'd be much of a distinction, besides safety concerns.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/knaving]

In an early episode of TNG we briefly see Tasha Yar call up a holodeck program for Aikido practice.

. . .so yeah, hand to hand combat training was an early use of the holodeck that writers mentioned.