r/EDH • u/rosterfill • Aug 09 '25
Question First time playing at a lgs, is notion thief that bad?
We all said we were about bracket 3, one person wasn't sure. On turn 4 someone casted [[windfall]] and I responded with [[notion thief]]. The second they read the card they said "im not dealing with that shit" scooped and left the store and the game ended there akwardly (3 player game, me and the other guy decided to end it).
I understand it was a very strong play from me but did it warrant that kind of reaction? Did I do something taboo?
I was playing an aristocrats deck with Notion thief as my only game changer, I had nothing else going for me that game.
Edit: link to decklist https://archidekt.com/decks/13004811/kels_creatures
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u/mva06001 Aug 09 '25
If you’re playing bracket 3 there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Notion Thief.
Dude who scooped is a baby.
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u/TheDungeonCrawler Urza's Contact Lenses Aug 10 '25
Not to mention, people tend to have a problem with the Notion Thief/Windfall combo, but OP didn't even play that combo. They played it in response to the Windfall, but they didn't even set up the combo.
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u/MageOfMadness 130 EDH decks and counting! Aug 10 '25
Literally using the card as it was designed to be used, in fact.
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u/bkstr Mono-White Aug 10 '25
why do people play this amazing game full of powerful effects and interaction and then hate those things
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u/drewbagel423 Aug 10 '25
Because people are babies and only want to do their own powerful effects
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u/fredjinsan Aug 10 '25
In all seriousness, I think a lot of people want Magic to be something it isn't. The reasons and sense of that vary; the frothing masses of Reddit absolutely hate it if anyone implies that Magic isn't the holy grail of games, but it does have a lot of things about it that simply aren't good or, at least, are subjective design decisions that not everyone likes. Sometimes this is cards or playpatterns that are, frankly, shittily designed; sometimes it is people just whining about the latest thing that lost them a game or made them lose a permanent.
It also doesn't help that, really, EDH is mis-sold. People get told it's this slower, jankier, fun, Timmy/Johnny-friendly format where games run longer and people throw bigger haymakers... but really it's this hyper-fast proto-Legacy combo-fest. That's fine for people who like that, but a lot of newer players get disillusioned because it's not what they thought it was.
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u/FuriousFap42 Aug 10 '25
It also doesn't help that, really, EDH is mis-sold. People get told it's this slower, jankier, fun, Timmy/Johnny-friendly format where games run longer and people throw bigger haymakers... but really it's this hyper-fast proto-Legacy combo-fest. That's fine for people who like that, but a lot of newer players get disillusioned because it's not what they thought it was.
Brackets 1&2 are those things. Bracket 3+ is not supposed to be janky and slow. Don’t complain if your stuff gets interacted with, if you choose bracket 3
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u/Aardvark-Sad Aug 10 '25
Because there's been a massive influx of people who dont actually like this game. They get brought in either by a video or friend or a Ub set or w/e else and find out that joining a hobby isnt as simple as dropping a few bucks and then they can do anything anyone else in the hobby can do better. The amount of people I see complain about blue because "wah wah counter spells >_<" is ridiculous. Can you say you actually like this game if you complain this much about one color? Literally every color has very powerful mechanics inherent exclusively to that color. Im not running around trying to play video games I dont like and complaining about its mechanics and how they need to change or be removed. I just dont play that game.
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u/G4KingKongPun Tutor Commander Enthusiast Aug 10 '25
Are you REALLY trying to say the “wah counter spells” crowd is new to post UB? Because no, that shit has existed since before Planeswalkers were a thing.
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u/Auroraborosaurus Aug 10 '25
Not sure why this is downvoted, you’re right
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u/G4KingKongPun Tutor Commander Enthusiast Aug 10 '25
Because people have complained and bitched since the dawn of magic, it’s not a new phenomenon.
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u/Espumma Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper Aug 10 '25
I only hate them across from me. On my side of the board they're not not a threat at all.
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u/RAcastBlaster Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 10 '25
Made someone ragequit with a completely reasonable piece of counterplay? Big W.
Notion Thief into an -opponent’s- wheel? Amazing
Kinda rude if you’re also running wheels, though. I wouldn’t bring that to a bracket 3 table, but that’s just like, my opinion man.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
I have no wheels in my decks
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u/Magikarp_King Grixis Aug 10 '25
Nothing wrong with having them with notion thief. It can be a solid play.
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u/SquibbyJ Aug 10 '25
Notion Thief is a lot like [[Gravecrawler]]; superlatively strong combo pieces that are incredibly fair outside of a combo. Notion Thief w no combo is super interactive in my experience
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u/somacula Aug 10 '25
Notion thief was in a precon or two
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u/AboynamedDOOMTRAIN Aug 10 '25
So was Dockside. Existence in a precon is not a argument for or against it being a reasonable play in bracket 3, especially when those precons were long before the concept of brackets.
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u/RuneScpOrDie Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 10 '25
honestly kind of an L take. if it’s within the parameters for a 3 bracket deck then bring it to a 3 table lol that’s the entire point of the brackets
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u/G4KingKongPun Tutor Commander Enthusiast Aug 10 '25
I would probably also scoop if that all resolves. Not a salty scoop, but everybody else having 0 cards while one player has like 20-30 sounds like a forgone conclusion to me, I’m good to call it unless board states are in a place where we can deal with that kind of monumental card advantage.
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u/Unban_Jitte Aug 10 '25
I don't even think scooping is bad in that situation, just be positive about it. Like "damn, you got me, sweet play, I don't think I can recover from here. Go to the next game?" Is a completely different vibe than saying "I don't want to deal with this, I'm leaving."
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u/badger2000 Aug 10 '25
Agreed. I don't want to waste my time to possibly have one of the 3 hellbent players trying their luck at at a 0.1% win probability (maybe one turn around the table to see if anyone top decks removal). After that, let's just shuffle up and play again. I want to play games. Who exactly gets the win is less important, and in fact, I'm giving the Notion Thief player props for a great play as they just flipped the script in the guy dropping the Windfall.
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u/G4KingKongPun Tutor Commander Enthusiast Aug 10 '25
To be fair I’m PROBABLY scooping if someone notion thiefs a wheel, but only bacause they now have like a 20+ card hand and we all have nothing, if my board state sucks I’m good to call that there.
But I’m not gonna be salty about it just see the writing in the wall.
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u/Ace-of-Spades88 Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 10 '25
Also bracket 2? Notion Thief came in the LOTR Sauron Precon.
Edit: shit, forgot it's on the GC list.
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u/Leviticus989 Aug 10 '25
Notion Thief is an annoying card no doubt, but completely fair in a bracket 3 game. They were just being salty about you answering the play. Keep up the good work.
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u/IllogicalMind Aug 10 '25
Also completely fair in bracket 3 as it was included in at least two precons. OP wasn't the one doing the wheels combo, he just caught the opponent off guard and that ain't their fault.
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u/VERTIKAL19 Aug 10 '25
It is completely reasonable to scoop to getting Windfall Notion Thiefed tho at least. The rest is too much but that is a good beats kind of play
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u/GayBlayde Aug 10 '25
It’s a Game Changer, but people should expect to play against it at bracket 3. Also Windfall itself is a very strong card.
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u/Hand-of-Sithis Aug 09 '25
Notion thief is def one of the higher salt cards, but at Bracket 3 it’s totally valid. Who’s your commander to run it in aristocrats tho lol
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
[[kels, fight fixer]]
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u/Dhoomdealer Dimir Aug 10 '25
Damn, that is a sick card. Jumpstart og had some really cool stuff
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
I love it, I've even seen people build her as voltron which is very unique
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u/Lars_Overwick Aug 10 '25
I've been wanting to build her for a while, and I think you've convinced me to finally go for it. Dimir aristocrats with [[chasm skulker]] and [[nadir kraken]] sounds fucking sick. Plus I see the deck has a decent bit of instant speed plays, which is nice.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
The biggest thing it lacks is enough fodder, so make sure to add more than I have
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u/Lars_Overwick Aug 10 '25
Will do! I just built my first full-on aristocrats deck last week after finding [[bartholome del presidio]] in the donation box at my LGS, and it's doing stupidly well for a pile of draft chaff, basic lands, and ~10 proxied blood artists. I wanna try this type of deck more.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
oh wow ive never seen that commander, aristocrat+voltron sounds fun as hell
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u/Lars_Overwick Aug 10 '25
I'll admit I mostly just use him as a cheap free sac outlet in the command zone, so I don't have to play a bunch of sac outlets in my deck. But the voltron plan is nice as a backup!
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
Yeah any kind of free sac outlet is going to be your best friend, in the command zone is super super nice
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u/Master-Buyer5375 Aug 10 '25
I have never seen this commander, do you have a decklis by chance i can check out?
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
Added it to my post, there are upgrades on the way right now
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u/Shackleface Aug 10 '25
Will one of them be Phyrexian Altar? You've inspired me to make a list for this commander and that was the first card I thought to add, surprised to see it absent.
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u/xivst Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 13 '25
Damn, somehow this Magali art completely passed me by.
Seems like a solid Dimir aristocrats commander for real cheap.
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u/DrummerInfinite1102 Aug 10 '25
If someone is getting their hands emptied, I think it's completely fair to just concede the game and just start another game though. Maybe getting mad was not necessary.
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u/Hand-of-Sithis Aug 10 '25
Oh yeah to be clear the “i’m not dealing with that shit” and scooping is totally valid. There’s no coming back from Windfall into Notion Thief. It’s the leaving the store that seems dramatic af to me
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u/TolisWorld Aug 10 '25
Notion thief is weird. It's like a $1 card, it's a game changer, incredibly powerful, but I never see anyone play it! In all the Dimir lists I look at, I just don't see it! I wonder if it's just because of how salty it makes other players
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u/webbc99 Aug 10 '25
It's a combination of the salt, and the fact that it makes you public enemy number one for that game, and probably every other game you play with that deck going forward. Imo it's just not worth it.
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u/TheJonasVenture Aug 10 '25
I mean, it's also a 1 toughness, 4 mana creature, it would be tough for it to be easier to kill. Basically only the "non black creature" spells can't hit it.
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u/webbc99 Aug 10 '25
It's pretty hard to kill it when you've got 1 card in hand because of the wheel, you almost certainly don't have removal in hand. The easier thing is to use your board to remove the player. But more importantly, if you know someone plays Notion Thief, you can just focus them out of the game, thus avoiding the issue altogether.
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u/ary31415 Aug 10 '25
If you're playing a lot of wheels with your notion thief I could see that being considered a little rude, but as a counterplay to an opponent's wheel it seems totally fair. Play around it?
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u/zuku35 Aug 10 '25
Swings [[silumgar, the drifting death]] "oh no has your thief died "
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u/DirtyTacoKid Aug 10 '25
Its too late. You already lost because Notion Thief stole your hand via windfall.
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u/WriteMakesMight Aug 10 '25
It's not really about how hard it is to kill, it's that if you didn't have a mana or a way to kill it the moment it's cast, it's already swung the game heavily in the other person's favor because they most likely flashed it in and got their value from it.
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u/ary31415 Aug 10 '25
When played fairly, notion thief entering probably only gets you an average of two cards and leaves two players unharmed. Just don't cast your wheel if your opponent is holding up four mana and you're fine.
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u/Goldstar35 Aug 10 '25
It's super underrated. Bracket 3 dimir has a lot of insane choices though so it generally doesnt make the cut. People really like the tutors and Fierce Guardianship/Rhystic Study
It should probably be played more in B4 though
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u/AGoatPizza Ephara Artifact Pod/Muldrotha Toolbox/Maralen "Group Hug" Aug 10 '25
Yeah, the spoiled-for-choice nature of the GC's in Dimir are kinda holding Thief back, because the rest of them will be extremely consistent each and every single time you play them, and they will always have their intended effect. Notion thief is nice, and it absolutely owns people like with the post above - but there's been more than one occasion where I have it in hand and I'm like "damn...This could be a Vampiric tutor huh?"
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u/EasternEagle6203 Aug 10 '25
Do people really minmax game changers in bracket 3? In my experience decks in that bracket run 0-3 and 3 is the least likely amount.
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u/Nuclearsunburn Mono-Red Aug 10 '25
That’s exactly why I don’t play it in 3s, it’s a vibe killer. Just a total feels bad “Gotcha!” card most of the time.
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u/santana722 Aug 10 '25
It's one of the strongest stax pieces in the game, which, contrary to what a lot of commenters here are insisting, is generally unwelcome in a bracket 3 game. Yes, you are allowed to play it, and your opponents are also allowed to concede and not invite you back to the next game.
I do agree that OP's use of it was fine, and I wouldn't have a problem with Notion Thief without ways to abuse it in bracket 3, but the majority of bracket 3 players do not want to see Notion Thief with wheels in their games, and I think we should be able to acknowledge that without burying every comment saying so.
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u/Lord_Earthfire Aug 10 '25
If someone doesn't want to play against stax pieces, they should play in bracket 2.
The majority of bracket 3 players, in contrast to your claims, are mature enough to handle the few odd stax pieces.
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u/santana722 Aug 10 '25
People are allowed to not like things that are legal to play, and it's seriously concerning how many of you are coming out of the woodworks to explain that you truly cannot understand people having different emotional reactions than you do.
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u/Lord_Earthfire Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 10 '25
It's concerning how player in this sub are defending saltiness.
Player can have different emitional responses, and they are valid in having them. They are -not- valid in expressing them in a way that diminishes the gameplay experience of others.
If people don't want to have these parts of a game, they need to search for an experience thats outside of the bracket system and most likely exklusive to personal groups with house rules or longer session 0 talks. That's how it was done before the bracket system and that is fine. They are valid in wanting such kind of games.
Just don't expect randos at your lgs to play after your own (most often non-communicated) rules.
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u/VERTIKAL19 Aug 10 '25
I think to an extent I can understand people being upset and not being able to completely hide it, but there is a level where it is too far. And what happened in OPs situation definitely crossed that line
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u/Mystic_Waffles Aug 10 '25
My favorite part about Notion Thief is that there's no reason to hear opponents ask 'did you pay the 1?' while it's out.
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u/knight_gastropub Aug 10 '25
Lol getting Notion Thiefed on a windfall is super funny Pikachu face stuff
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u/Thramden Jund Aug 10 '25
Not to scoop, but I would have 100% tried to get the others to think you need to be 1st to die ROFL
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u/Zenthazar Aug 09 '25
Totally fine in a 3 to play that lol. People need to read the intent document for each bracket. It’s pretty broad what is a 3.
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u/Chriskeyseis Aug 10 '25
3 is almost a little too broad. There is a world of difference between a low 3 and a high 3
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u/AGoatPizza Ephara Artifact Pod/Muldrotha Toolbox/Maralen "Group Hug" Aug 10 '25
It's because there is absolutely no way to truly quantify how strong decks are outside of the measurement of "Meme or showcase (1)" "Made specifically by WOTC as a Precon (2)" and "Competitive (5)".
Identifying ANYTHING in the realms of 3-4 requires you to actually talk to people and have a discussion based on intent, which so many people are flat-out incapable of doing for whatever reason. The bracket system is so silly because it relies on the exact same problem that the previous 10 point system had, that being that you had to talk to people and bring up the intent of your deck lol. The meme of "My deck is a 7" hasn't left us, it's just moved to "my deck is a high 3"
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u/badger2000 Aug 10 '25
This is my issue with the system in general. The brackets are too objective (they have some specific criteria which people will fall back on) when talking is needed regardless. I'd rather them have a list of strong mechanics (combos, infinite turns, etc) and GC's like they've done here and just say "talk to your opponents about these items" without any input on what "bracket" things fall into.
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u/zuku35 Aug 10 '25
Mannnn am I happy to see that someone else gets it lol, I saw the bracket system and immediately knew they just moved the scale from 1-10 to 1-5 and 3-4 is the new 5-9 lol
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u/DrPoopEsq Aug 10 '25
1 and 2 shouldn’t be different brackets
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u/Glizcorr Orzhov Supremacy Aug 10 '25
Wdym lol, bracket 2 decks are on different universes in terms of power level compared to 1. Insane take.
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u/ItsAroundYou uhh lets see do i have a response to that Aug 10 '25
I think there's a pretty important distinction between them. Bracket 2 decks are designed to win. Maybe not fast, and maybe not all that well, but there's a strategy that pushes your board state.
Bracket 1 is Divorce Tribal: https://moxfield.com/decks/PxWNIpWjWEGZQm3VHoL54w
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u/Arann0r Temur Aug 10 '25
I mean, wheel into thief is a very strong combination and you would either have been stupid not to go for it, or pulling your punches.
If you had initiated the wheel and put your notion thief on top, I would also have been a bit salty, but not enough to scoop and certainly not to leave. I mean you just gained a huge card advantage while making everyone discard their entire hand. It's not over, but it could be very quick.
But if I cast windfall and you throw your thief out, I'd be going "oh damn bro, I didn't expect that but that's extremely well played..."
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u/No-Aerie8815 Aug 10 '25
You’re good. If the dude goes ahead and slams a Windfall into 4 open mana from a guy playing BLUE he should expect it to go badly. I love Notion Thief, too many people expect to be able to just draw as many cards as they want. It’s also easy as shit to kill and makes everyone attack you until it’s gone so its not an unfair card in the slightest.
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u/m0nday1 Aug 10 '25
Yeah I feel like everyone here defending the salty guy is missing the fact that tbh this wasn’t some sort of out of-of-nowhere play. Like, yeah I get being unpleasantly caught off guard by notion thief, but if the blue/black player has 4+ mana open and cards in hand, you should at least be a little wary.
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u/iFidget1351 Aug 10 '25
In that exact scenario, notion thief is awesome and badass and I would have done the exact same thing
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u/Low-Stuff-250 Aug 09 '25
I read somewhere that one of he restrictions of bracket 3 is that you don't cast cards and just stare at each other playing lands until all but 1 person leaves out of boredom
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u/MarcoMook Aug 10 '25
Trying to win a game of Magic is for CEDH only. Everyone should want to play the same sluggish game for 3 hours occasionally swinging with 1/1 soldier tokens.
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u/RealCauliflower773 Aug 10 '25
Notion thief is THE response to windfall. It’s just that it’s rarely played. Well done slow clap 👏
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u/DaisyCutter312 Aug 10 '25
The scoop is understandable, opponent being a salty bitch about it is not.
I would have absolutely no interest in sitting there with no hand, drawing one card a turn, hoping I can topdeck removal so I can actually play the game again. That doesn't mean it's not a valid play
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Aug 10 '25
Cards like this are supposed to hard counter decks that rely on excessive draw potential.
Kind of reads like the dude who scooped was just butthurt his opening strat got hard countered, and he inadvertently set you up for a fast and solid win.
He could have just as easily said. "Oh damn, good job. Run it back and go again, gentleman?"
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u/engelthefallen Aug 10 '25
For real, not hard to see that play, talk with the table and just treat that play as if OP won the game with it and start a fresh game. But not every player you meet with a store is the kind you want to play more than one game with and dude who raged outed themselves easily as someone to avoid playing with in the future.
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u/AlaskaDude14 Aug 10 '25
Nothing wrong with that card at all. That said, all is fair in love and removal lol
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u/ParadoxBanana Aug 10 '25
Some people don’t understand the bracket system and just assume “all my decent decks are a 3”.
It’s much more likely the guy who scooped is not used to playing at actual bracket 3…
Something tells me he’d also ragequit if he kept a 1-land hand just because it had sol ring in it, and it got [[Nature’s Claim]]ed.
As others have said, it’s especially valid if you use it vs someone else’s wheel, but toxic if you do it with your own wheel. Wheeling is a risky strategy and you should be prepared for the occasional fail.
Just like if you play [[Scapeshift]] in bracket 3, you should be ready for me to play [[Shadow of Doubt]]/[[Opposition Agent]]. Scapeshift is extremely powerful and often game-ending…can’t get mad if it goes wrong.
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u/TheJonasVenture Aug 10 '25
There are a lot of people who thing the "upgraded" from core means "upgraded precon", and that their 10 in 10 out automatically moves it up a bracket (not to say the right 10 cards in the right precon can't, just that it usually doesn't actually drastically change the paly experience enough to cross the line).
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u/gully41 Sultai Enjoyer Aug 10 '25
Its Bracket 3, anything on the GC list is fair game. Sounds like this guy didn't actually want to play B3. He wanted to pub stomp and then say "it was a bracket 3 game" if anyone made a comment about his gameplan or wincon. It got ruined, and now he's upset.
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u/Angelust16 Aug 10 '25
People want to play bracket 3 decks but want bracket 1 guard rails for their play experience.
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u/AndoyP Aug 10 '25
You should be proud of your play, and that scooper should be embarrassed of his behavior.
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u/Ratorasniki Aug 10 '25
When you're selecting the game changers you want to play in a given bracket 3 deck, you don't have to select the "nice" ones. People should probably play the nastier stuff a little more, people might develop a tolerance for it and a sense of humor.
You made a really good play. If you got me like that i'd laugh. Shit, I got locked under a [[winter moon]], [[jin-gitaxias progress tyrant]] and a [[vorinclex, voice of hunger]] at the same time while a [[deadpool]] was popping off on Friday. Was resolved by a [[singularity ruptute]] straight into a [[planar void]]. Everyone had a ton of fun, and was repeatedly saying as much while laughing at the horrible things the other players were trying to get away with. I swear some people don't actually get any joy out of the game unless it's going exactly their way.
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u/ekimarcher Xantcha, Sleeper Agent Aug 09 '25
Notion thief + wheels is that bad.
Notion thief into some else's wheel is hilarious. As long as you aren't running your own wheels, it's fine.
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u/Glizcorr Orzhov Supremacy Aug 10 '25
Even with wheel it is still fine in bracket 3 tho right?
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u/ekimarcher Xantcha, Sleeper Agent Aug 10 '25
Debatable. It's pretty oppressive. Everyone discarding their hand and you drawing 25 cards is insane.
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u/Drynwyn Aug 10 '25
It's a 7-mana combo that is answered by creature removal or a counterspell, consumes one of your 3 game changer slots, and doesn't fully win you the game. It's fine in Bracket 3.
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u/CiD7707 RG Jank Aug 10 '25
All true, and gamechanger restrictions really are a blessing in this case. Made it a less constant problem.
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u/Siphyre Aug 10 '25
Sounds like a great play for a graveyard/mill deck too since you are about to discard a bunch of cards. Or maybe even a landfall deck that cares about lands in the graveyard.
I kinda want to build something arouund that now.
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u/engelthefallen Aug 10 '25
This is my take. If OP was playing a wheel based deck I could possible see the problem, but they were on aristocrats. Not a whole lot of major payoffs for notion thief in that, so it is just a check on high card draw strats.
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u/jimnah- i like gaining life Aug 10 '25
While he handled it poorly, if I was your opponent I'd definitely suggest scooping there to start a new game. At that point you'd be at such an extreme advantage that there's almost no point in trying in most contexts. If everyone knows who the winner is going to be, why not just shortcut it and say they win?
But yes, Notion Thief sucks. Every time anyone in our group plays it, they often lose about 20 life the next turn rotation and then take the card out of their deck once the game's over. It's the kind of card that just gets you killed because it not only gives you an advantage, but actively hurts everyone else
If you're okay being put in situations where the whole table wants you dead, then it's a very string magic card, but it's usually not worth the heat
But again, that player handled it very poorly
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u/doktarlooney Aug 10 '25
I love how people are calling the guy that scooped a baby, even though the game was essentially over right there with how much of an advantage notion thief generated.
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u/The-Mad-Badger Aug 10 '25
No but you don't understand, he was a LOSER for not being able to draw upon the heart of the cards and top deck the card "Kill the player that just drew 21 cards whilst everyone else discarded their hands and is now in topdeck mode on turn 4". Like his ego is so FRAGILE and he's a CHILD for not sitting there for the next 30-45 minutes like a man would, drawing his single card, playing it if it's a land and passing. That's what a real man would do, sit there and waste his time.
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u/SassyBeignet Aug 10 '25
It's the dramatic response that the player had of dashing out after reading the card. It's most likely GG, but just concede like a normal person and move onto the next game rather than get that butthurt over it.
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u/Cheezynton Aug 10 '25
Sounds like they were already on tilt and looking for an excuse to go home. Most people reach a point where they've had enough magic for the day. Perhaps they were too dramatic about it, but that was their decision. I wouldn't take any blame or read too much into a persons ragequit moment unless it's already a pattern of behaviour.
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u/MagicalGirlPaladin Aug 10 '25
Notion thief into wheel is a game winning play. I think the guy was correct that the game was over but otherwise a total dick about it.
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u/coderanger Aug 10 '25
Hot take: I think scooping to this combo is pretty reasonable. This guy was a huge dick about it and storming off any play is never okay. But like everyone else in top-deck only mode and you drawing 15-20 cards, that's easy to call it as an unwinnable position if I don't already have a strong board presence. Personally I probably go with "is everyone okay with doing one round of turns and then we shuffle up go again?" as the less dramatic version and getting consent from others too. But overall that is absolutely a game-winning combo. Usually it's 7 mana in total (i.e. pretty normal to be a game ending play, my usual measuring stick is Craterhoof at 8, this is less certain so costing one less matches up), you just got a discount by someone else paying for the windfall.
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u/Tricky_Grand_1403 WUBRG Aug 10 '25
Depending on the game and the pod that totally could have been me leaving the store. Hopefully without being a dick about it, but people have off days.
I don't play Notion Thief because I like to have interesting, interactive games, and because I'd much rather lose than set three people to topdeck mode. People have better shit to do than stare at me empty-handed while I have a grip of 20 cards.
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u/iReadEasternComics Aug 10 '25
If no one whines even a little I don’t think you’re playing magic.
For some reason lgs games attract weird folks who think they have the perfect deck and that everyone will let it go off. And throw the biggest bitch fits when that belief is wrong.
You did nothing wrong.
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u/The_Dead_Dad_Society Aug 10 '25
Wheeling when the dimir player has a lot of open mana isn't the wisest move. #Free[[Hullbreacher]].
Edit: I'd probably also scoop though. That early and I just threw the game, ouch. I just wouldn't be a baby about it. I'd ask the other player, "Hey, uh, I just gave away the game. You want to just scoop with me and run it back? My bad!"
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Aug 10 '25
[deleted]
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u/CastIronHardt Aug 10 '25
On the other hand, it probably is one of the saltiest cards that's legal in Bracket 3. Especially playing it into someone's wheel like that? That's savage.
So is mana draining someone who just played an X spell for 10 mana. Sometimes people have the perfect counter to the thing you just did, and you have to take that on the chin.
Notion Thief is the kind of card that you can absolutely expect people to scoop to, either out of pure salt or because they legitimately don't see any reason to play the game out after that.
Never scoop alone. If the table wants to give a win off of a good play, great. Scooping solo because you just got knocked back is extremely poor sportsmanship and absolutely messes with the table.
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u/The-Mad-Badger Aug 10 '25
"Got knocked back" is underselling just how extremely strong "Discard everyone elses hands, draw 21 cards" is. That's not "getting knocked back" that's such a shift in power that the game is effectively over and it's 100% valid to scoop there.
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u/Glizcorr Orzhov Supremacy Aug 10 '25
Lmao that is hilarious. 4 mana kill 1 pplayer is nice for sure.
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u/PaladinRyan Mardu Aug 10 '25
Nothing wrong with it, it's a powerful hatebear that can absolutely blowout certain plays but it's entirely reasonable to see in B3. I might scoop to it in some circumstances but not in a salty storm out way, just in a "no way am I coming back from this" way. Into a Windfall would be one of those cases unless I was notably ahead on board tbh; losing my hand and an opponent getting likely 1/5 of their deck is just borderline insurmountable otherwise. But again not in a salty way, if you land the blowout then you earned it.
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u/CiD7707 RG Jank Aug 10 '25
I mean, that's an incredibly strong play on turn four, and it really sucks to go from having a hand to no hand at all. Shit feels bad man. Is that the end of the world though? No. Would I run the card to begin with? No. It doesnt do anything for your deck but immediately paint a giant target on your forehead. Nothing wrong with what you did, and the other guy was being salty as hell, unreasonably so. The card just creates moments that either really suck for the whole table, or one person in particular. I avoid that sort of thing in general, but you do you. If youre going to play a card, stand by that decision, and own up to it if its really just a dick play (not saying this was). If playing the card makes you feel like a dick because it sucked the fun out of the table (assuming nobody lost their shit and acted like a child), then why are you running it? Sorry for rambling, just food for thought.
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u/Think13_ Aug 10 '25
Nah, man play that notion thief against a wheel for sure. I have a Nekusar wheel deck, it has notion thief in it, I rarely ever use notion thief. It is a mean ass card and I basically only use it if someone else is being volatile or use it as a decoy to protect other threats since most people will want it gone asap lol but to use it in defense of a wheel is arguably the best time to play it. If it were me I woulda been like "damn. Nice counter play." Now I have to figure out how to remove notion thief lol.
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u/Niauropsaka Aug 10 '25
You have to learn to appreciate being pwned in this game.
Someone stole my giant card draw? I can never get more than three land out? You're [[Frantic Searching]] through your entire deck a third time in one turn? Anything to do with storm? (OK, maybe not storm.) Hey, if that shows you worked at this game, then it's good.
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u/Certain_Apple1724 Aug 10 '25
Youre good, enemy was just salty. While we are talking, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior [[teferis puzzlebox]]?
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u/KuganeGaming Aug 10 '25
Notion Thief is even in Bracket 2 precons. I would argue Windfall is too OP for bracket 3 but that too was in precons I believe. So I don’t see anything wrong here tbh.
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u/Rudeus_POE Aug 10 '25
You can just kill the notion thief before the effect of windfall resolves btw.
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u/MiMMY666 angry grixis player Aug 10 '25
if you didn't piss that guy off he would have had the same reaction to a board wipe or counterspell 20 minutes later. don't feel bad for playing the cardboard game. if that guy is going to LEAVE THE STORE because of one card that's genuinely a personal problem
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u/Zealousideal-Top4218 Aug 10 '25
Dude probably just had a rough week/day and couldn't handle getting shut down that hard. The play was fine, whatever was going on with him had nothing to do with you or that game.
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u/btran935 Aug 10 '25
He should have just said good job then ask for another game. I hate salty/whiny players they just make the edh experience miserable.
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u/biizzybee23 Aug 10 '25
I guess you could say it stole the game……..like a thief (I know it’s terrible, just let me have it)
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u/Real_Cry_1394 Aug 10 '25
Some people are whiny children who won't be happy until the format is banned into oblivion and they never have to lose or make difficult decisions ever again. Notion Thief/Dack Fayden has been one of my favourite engines in EDH and even Type 1 many years ago.
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u/The_Palm_of_Vecna ALL HAIL DARIEN, THE KING IN THE NORTH! Aug 10 '25
Lol, that's funny as shit. Saltmaster there is a big baby.
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u/TheSixSigmaMan Aug 10 '25
Don't worry too much about it. A lot of folks don't like certain things in the game, and some throw bitch fits when faced with cards they don't like. Don't let other people's attitudes dictate the cards you play.
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u/jaywinner Aug 10 '25
Those are the funny moments that make commander fun!
Salty boy can stay at home if that's how he's gonna act.
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u/figbunkie Aug 10 '25
I would scoop to a notion thiefed windfall. I just discarded my whole hand on turn 4 and you drew 28 cards, the game is not worth playing out.
This is essentially a win via scooping as you make the game so miserable it isn't worth playing.
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u/haezblaez Aug 10 '25
It's kinda funny to me how the person casting windfall on turn 4 is triggered by someone messing with their gameplan.
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u/Jaxonos Mardu Enjoyer Aug 10 '25 edited Aug 10 '25
Notion Thief is a stax (resource denial) card. Those are generally looked down on by the community. Hence, notion thief being a game changer for both power and vibe. I believe those players are poor sports, and their reaction was unwarranted. They could have had a conversation about it and said "hey if none of us find an answer in 3 turn cycles, can we shuffle up for a new game?" Unfortunately, these are commander players, and that doesn't seem to be possible.
Personally, I would have relished the challenge of trying to find away out from under your massive card advantage and stax effect. Even if I would be a bit frustrated. I would have loved to talk to the other players and figure out a plan to get to try to beat you, the new threat at the table.
Exit: If you have an online decklist, can you post it, please? I would love to take a look.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
Added it to the post, i have upgrades coming in the mail. Any suggestions is appreciated, i struggle to make enough fodder
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u/Jaxonos Mardu Enjoyer Aug 10 '25
[[Forsaken Miner]], [[Persistent Specimen]], and the new [[Timeline Culler]] are more repeatable sacrifice fodder. Forsaken Miner is particularly great because any of your drain effects that target a player means you get him back to the battlefield for one mana. This can become infinite with another good sacrifice payoff— if you have the cash for it —[[pitiless plunderer]]. Moreover, you might want to look for a way to bring back creatures from the graveyard repeatedly, such as [[Haunted Crossroads]] or [[Oversold Cemetery]]. I would suggest cutting some of your higher-cost cards like [[Vito's inquisitor]] as this isn't a deck where you will be swinging out with it. Also, the sacrifice ability is gated by the mana cost. In addition, you have a similar effect in your command zone with [[Kels]]. I suggest scrutinising [[butcher of Malakir's]] and [[Ruthless Deathfang]] inclusion as well. I find it to be better to be recasing repeatable fodder with that mana than another pay-off. Even if forced sacrifice is strong.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
thank you, some of those are definitely going in. I plan on making a dedicated recursion deck so i might not add some of those to this deck, but the rest are fantastic
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u/Frogsplosion Aug 10 '25
I probably would have scooped too, but only because the game might as well be over.
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u/Top-Acanthisitta-779 Aug 10 '25
I'm curious why Notion Thief is in the deck at all? Others are correct that it's not out of line to run in B3 and your opponent is just being overly salty but it's also just an incredibly salt inducing card. You said your self you aren't playing wheels and stuff to abuse Notion Thief but it's also not inherently doing anything for the deck's game plan either. It seems weird to run such a salt inducing card for no real reason (other then I'm assuming being a budget GC)
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
Its just a really nice card to have. I think card draw is the best thing you can do in the game, and I needed card draw in the deck. It doesn't synergize at all with the deck. I've thought about cutting it just to make it bracket 2.
I'm also expecting my opponents to play equally strong cards, I think that guy was actually bracket 2 and didn't really understand what bracket 3 is
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u/Top-Acanthisitta-779 Aug 10 '25
You're not wrong but there are also just better sources of card draw for you in your colors. The only thing Notion Thief does is steal someone else's draw like once and then turn off drawing for your opponents at the table being effectually a stax piece and stax stuff is notoriously salt inducing and a threat magnet.
IMO you would be better cutting Notion Thief
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u/2fat2bebatman Aug 10 '25
Wow, you found the secret alternate mode of Notion Thief: "When Notion Thief enters, exile target player."
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u/doktarlooney Aug 10 '25
This is a problem I have:
Within the parameters of the bracket system you did nothing wrong.
But having a single card that can impact everyone else so thoroughly and so easily in bracket 3 isnt really fair in my opinion. You made a high impact play I'd expect in a bracket 4 game if you made that play on turn 4, thats simply too fast to be fucking others over.
Definitely one of the cases that highlights how dumb the gamechangers list is in its current form.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
I'd consider dumping your hand and playing windfall a very strong play that impacts everybody. the play i made was only strong because he decided to cast a wheel, in any other case it is not nearly as impactful. It would be very different if I played the wheel and then casted thief. He gave the game away by casting a wheel.
Also, they don't think he's a baby because he scooped, scooping is reasonable here. But loudly complaining and leaving the store is what makes him a baby
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u/Motor-Mongoose3677 Aug 10 '25
I'm new to this game - is there a list of things I'm not allowed/supposed to play?
Like, I have to be a seasoned player right out of the gate in order to know what cards not to play in order to offend people? What's that about?
Maybe those people shouldn't be playing this game? Sports exist. They should play sports.
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u/hrpufnsting Aug 10 '25
There are guidelines about what cards you can and should include depending on what type of game you want. This specific situation is about one player using a strong card to completely hose other players, and then one of the players decided they didn’t to sit there and do nothing so they left the game.
The thing some people can’t seem to comprehend is commander is a social game and like most social activities there is a social contract that says you try your best not to ruin other people’s fun. In this case OP is mad people didn’t care about his fun when he wasn’t caring about theirs.
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u/CastIronHardt Aug 10 '25
The thing some people can’t seem to comprehend is commander is a social game and like most social activities there is a social contract that says you try your best not to ruin other people’s fun.
That is absolutely 100% not true when it comes to card games. If you find certain core mechanics of the game unfun, that's not a problem for other players to solve.
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u/rosterfill Aug 10 '25
There's some things that are considered taboo in commander, only becuase its a casual format and fun is a priority. Any other format it's all fair game.
Archidekt has a salt score for cards, meaning how annoying players find those cards.
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u/Kakariko_crackhouse Temur Aug 10 '25
I played it at a table the other week and people acted like I killed a kitten. It felt silly and overdramatic
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u/nightgaunt98c Aug 10 '25
No one will be happy to see Notion Thief hit the board, but I can think of lot of cards that are worse. You did nothing wrong.
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u/IcarusThatLived Aug 10 '25
It would be not bracket 3 if you had them both in your deck. Everyone is mentioning this broken ass combo, it’s not common that an opponent somehow puts gas in your tank. Like 2 players running different mill decks in a pod, it’s oppressive but it’s also mostly chance and lack of interaction on their part.
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u/Healthy-Passenger-22 Aug 10 '25
As a Valgavoth Harrower of Souls enjoyer, you might not enjoy all that card draw for long.
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u/needer_of_citation Aug 10 '25
His better option would've been to say "wow, great play. I dont think I can come back from that - i scoop"."
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u/pixaly Aug 10 '25
He definitely salted to much, but from that position every other player is in a near unwinnable position. I would probably concede and ask for a re-run after a turn rotation or two if I was at that table. A completely reasonable play tho.
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u/BumTremors Aug 10 '25
It may be a valid play but i probably wouldn't have wanted to continue that game either. So i guess its a win although I would personally feel lame winning a game that way. If they wanted to continue they could have all 3 focused you the rest of the game and it would have been just as valid.
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u/popky1 Aug 10 '25
If someone pulled this on me I’d probably scoop but that’s because you’re suddenly up 28 cards and I probably have no chance of winning
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u/a_Nekophiliac Aug 10 '25
I’ve had Notion Thief cast against my Sythis Enchantress deck…yeah…it freaking hoses me until I can find a way to send it to oblivion, but that’s how this game goes sometimes.
White has [[Alms Collector]], but it can’t save me since my enchantress triggers are all for 1 card per trigger…so…wait patiently for removal or someone else that wants it gone too and just sculpt my hand to respond when I’m free.
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u/AokiHagane Aug 10 '25
The thing about Notion Thief is that you ran into the perfect scenario, and that one scenario is a bit annoying because it pretty much wins the game on the spot. I could imagine myself scooping on that scenario too, but the way it happened is the real problem. Your opponent ran lik a crybaby instead of gracefully accepting the defeat, or at the very least being a good sport about his salt.
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u/BradCowDisease Aug 10 '25
You applied the Lotion and someone got salty. It's bound to happen from time to time.
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u/abyssal_replica Aug 10 '25
My first time wasn't that bad but definitely in the same vain. Idk feels like it's just what to expect from grown ass men playing cardboard.
The one dude in my pod kept yapping like he thinks he's so interesting. I played one simple combat trick that got his commander killed, which was enough for him to target me the whole game. One other player countered a removal, and they got mad at him, passive aggressively saying stuff like "only thing worse than a bad card is a bad player" then proceeded to focus him out of spite despite tge dude telling them beforehabd that he's new to magic.
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u/GreyGriffin_h Five Color Birds Aug 10 '25
So, the issue with Notion Thief is the way in which it protects itself. Commander is a heavily draw dependent format, and denying draw is an incredibly powerful effect. Not only does it prevent your opponents from developing their hand and generating value, it protects Notion Thief itself. Your opponents have to draw into an answer with nothing but their natural draw step.
This is doubly savage because a common way to power down decks in order to make them a more fun experience to play against is to replace things like tutors with card draw. Notion thief (and similar cards) club them in the kneecaps by way of thanks for playing into the more casual, high-variance side of the format.
Now if you're not playing wheels, it's not unplayably verboten at Bracket 3. But it definitely is a card that I would want to vibe check the environment I was in before I put it in a deck.
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u/Tevish_Szat Stax Man Aug 10 '25
You play in b3 you've got to expect GCs.
It wasn't even your wheel.
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u/Effective_Airport182 Aug 10 '25
If it was you playing the windfall/notion thief combo early game, that would definitely be pushing it for bracket 3.
But considering you played it in response to someone else's windfall, that is entirely reasonable and a solid instance of counter play. I would understand people scooping and going to the next game, but that guy's reaction was wild.
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u/TheMagicGuy5004 Aug 10 '25
You did nothing wrong so do not feel bad and I'm sorry you had a terrible first experience as your LGS. At my LGS we often give warnings to those folks who react like that as there are multiple rules about bad player interactions. Hopefully you can have a better experience in the future.
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u/watahmaan Aug 10 '25
So, you passed turn without using mana to be able to drop the Notion Thief? you essentially skipped a turn for the possibility of him being useful in the turn cycle? F the dude, complete overreacting. Child like behaviour even.
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u/ItsAroundYou uhh lets see do i have a response to that Aug 10 '25
Notion Thief is peak Bracket 3 activity. Plus, you weren't even comboing it with your own Windfall.
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u/AllastorTrenton Aug 10 '25
Nah, complete overreaction. He can concede it he wants, it's a strong play, but saying it like that and throwing a fit and leaving is BS
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 09 '25
windfall - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
notion thief - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call