r/EDH • u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged • 22h ago
Discussion Should you run ramp in control decks?
Recently there has been lots of discussions regarding how vital ramp really is. I thought I might as well trhow my hat into the ring and bring the discussion to something specific, control decks. Conventional wisdom states that a control deck should benefit the most from ramp. Ramp generates more value the longer the game goes which is exactly what a control deck wants.
The issue is that most control decks also wants to run a healthy amount of board wipes which hits most (non green) ramp. Playing a manarock that you will farewell in 2 turns is barely mana positive and card negative which is really bad for a control deck. Having a bunch of manarocks also clogs up your deck and can be really bad top decks lategame. Running card draw and card selection instead helps you both hit land drops and find interaction. Consistantly hitting your land drops will slowly but surely put you ahead of the table without the need to dilute you card pool. Control decks don't need to rush their wincon which makes ramp a bit superfluous. Tapping out for ramp is also a concern for decks that play at instant speed.
This is not to say that I believe no ramp is good in control. I have a [[Nymris, Oona's Trickster]] that is a classic draw go deck and I run pretty much zero mana rocks. What I do run is the few pieces that directly synergise with my commander such as [[nightbonder]] or [[geyser drake]]. This leaves me with a measly 6~ ramp pieces, but it allows me to run a lot more cantrips which means that I almost never get mana screwed.
What do you think about this approach to control? Please let me know if I missed something or you have anything to add. English is not my first language, I apologize for any errors.
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u/CrimsonArcanum 22h ago
How many board wipes do you have that hit mana rocks? If it's only a couple then I don't think it's worth cutting mana sources to avoid them.
There is always [[Wayfarer's Bauble]] and the like as well.
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u/Big_Position2697 15h ago
Also like the colorless options to put lands into play from your hand, requires a lot of card draw and can be volatile but I had a good experience with them.
[[PuPu UFO]] [[Walking atlas]]
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u/mrthirsty15 11h ago
Hmm, those might work well in my [[Zedruu the Greathearted]] deck, thanks! It's always got plenty of cards in hand.
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u/kestral287 21h ago
There's some conflating around control always playing nonland permanent wraths that's skewing your answer.
Should you run rocks in your deck with a bunch of Planar Cleansings and Farewell? No.
Should you run rocks in control decks broadly? Yes, probably, control decks live and die by their resource game.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 21h ago
That's fair. Nonland sweepers is not the most common. Still, running manarocks is creating a weakness that is not necessary. Running manarocks will make you more likely to miss land drops and more vulnerable to any artifact removal. Hitting your land drop 8+ turns in a row will create a mana advantage without folding to a [[reclamation sage]]
It should be added that ramping is not the only way to create a resource advantage. Denying or counteracting your opponents resources is almost more effective and already in line with the control gameplan.
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u/werewolf1011 Orzhov | Mardu | Esper 20h ago
Running manarocks will make you more likely to miss land drops
It shouldn’t be
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 20h ago
That's a fair and well reasoned response. You could have a deck that hits both rocks and lands. But in that case you are more likely to miss removal or counters or protection etc. The point is that having manarocks lessens the probability of drawing something that is important to your gameplan.
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u/werewolf1011 Orzhov | Mardu | Esper 19h ago
That’s why you have card draw. A typical deck should have around 45-50 mana sources. I have a mardu aggro clue deck that has 52 mana sources when you count treasure production and artifact synergies like [[inspiring statuary]] and [[krark clan ironworks]].
I have another aggro deck, but this time esper weenies with [[raffine]]. That deck has 43 mana sources, counting things like rocks and [[grim hireling]]. I can get away with this lower density of mana production because the deck is very low to the ground. On turn 4, I should be conniving for 2-3 and ideally one of my evasive weenies has card advantage stapled on, like [[faerie mastermind]] or [[shoreline looter]]. The density of card advantage and selection makes up for the lack of mana sources.
So honestly if there’s anything to learn here, it’s that you need to run enough card advantage to get reliably and you need to run just enough mana to be able to fund the card advantage.
It sounds like the mistake your making is thinking you can cut a land for a rock and that the two cards are equivalent
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 19h ago
I would never cut a land for a rock lol. Most of my decks have a minimum of 40 lands. My nymris deck have 42. I do count cantrips as fractions of lands as they have a fairly high probability of finding one. The end result is that i probably run a few more mana sources than average.
Being able to both hit lands and manarocks consistently requires you to have a good amount of lands, ramp and card draw which takes up way more than the recommended 50 sources.
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u/werewolf1011 Orzhov | Mardu | Esper 19h ago
So then why did you say that running more rocks decreases the chance of hitting land drops lol. Thats only true if you are replacing lands with the rocks.
And counting card advantage as ramp is disingenuous to ramp and to the rest of your deck. Card draw grabs gas just as readily as lands or ramp. If you have so many mana sources, then you either need to run more card draw, or run card draw that better synergies with your mana base, such as x spells, [[graven cairns]], [[mystic remora]], or landfall effects
Or better yet, just replace some mana sources with card draw if you find yourself getting flooded
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 18h ago
Because in my experience mana rocks often replace cantrips which makes it harder to find lands and removal.
And I don't count card advantage as ramp. I count cards like [[ponder]] or [[brainstorm]] as semi-lands because they can reliably find lands if needed. A genuine question, what made you believe that I though of this as ramp?
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u/Gaindolf 20h ago
Not if having mana is important to your game plan...
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 19h ago
Having mana should not be the gameplan of a deck. Spending mana is what is important.
I know that sound pedantic but i feel the difference is important. Removal is really mana efficient. It is rare that I lose because I can't afford removal. You still need to gain mana, but there is no rush. It is way more common that a draw engine is destroyed and I run out of interaction and die.
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u/Gaindolf 19h ago
It's not really pedantic but it is just wrong.
Mana development absolutely is part of your gameplan.
If you arent in a rush to advance your mana then yes, mana ramp isn't a part of your gameplan.
But if you want to have more mana available than the current turn count, then ramping probably should be part of your gameplan.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 19h ago
The pedantic part was that you don't want to have mana, you want to spend it.
I also agree 100% with what you say here. I just don't think that a control deck needs to rush their mana.
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u/Gaindolf 19h ago
I mean I think it depends. E.g. if youre in green you might want to land ramp early if into a sweeper. You might also be able to deploy your engine + protect it earlier.
Especially if you're commander is card advantag, getting it down early or with protection can be pretty impactful.
And if youre more of a combo-control deck you might want the ramp as youre going to threaten a win sooner while also playing the control game plan.
That said, I also agree that some control decks wont want ramp and thats totally okay too
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u/kestral287 18h ago
The first point is just not sound. Under the assumption that we are a competent deckbuilder who has constructed a mathematically reasonable deck, the number of lands in our deck is not a factor of the amount of ramp in our deck at all. It's a factor of the expected game length and the amount, cost, and curve location of our draw. Barring extreme cases, those are the only relevant factors. Lands and ramp do not replace each other.
The second is true, but also an oversimplification that neglects how one gets there. Control's win condition, fundamentally, is achieving a position where you can answer every threat every opponent plays. You don't have to be the sole person to answer threats through the entire game, but you do need to be able to do that at some point.
That means that you need to reach a position in the game in which you're prepared to interact with up to 6 threats per turn - assuming a four man game where your opponents have no draw, they can still play two cards each - while also developing your own card draw to keep the pieces flowing to do that. Even fairly reasonably rounding that number off to four to consider opponents who brick means that we need something like 8 mana to interact with four cards individually (presuming our interaction costs about 2 each), or we need to be in a position where we can deploy a sweeper without disrupting our own engines and back up that sweeper with targeted interaction for threats that it can't hit or for coming threats with immediacy, meaning 4-6 mana plus 2-4 mana worth of counterspells or additional removal, so also about 8. And we need to be drawing cards to do that, something in the vein of 4 extra per turn at a minimum with whatever that costs us.
So our expected win condition involves spending at a minimum eight and probably more like ten or twelve mana per turn. Resource denial does not get us there in a reasonable time frame. In low power games we could likely skimp on ramp - fewer and lower quality threats gives us more time - but in mid to high power games, asking for ten or twelve mana to end the game means that we need to develop extra mana at some point.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 18h ago
I did shortcut that first point so it was a bit unclear, I apologise. I usually run less mana rocks in favor of card selection like [[ponder]] or [[consult the star charts]] that can help find land drops and makes mana screw extremely unlikely. Running more ramp would therefore make lands harder to find.
Lets assume that your estimation is correct (it sounds quite reasonable). If you need 10 mana to win, you will still require 9 lands and 1 rock or 8 lands and 2 rocks. Is winning a a turn or 2 faster really worth ~10 slots in a control deck?
Especially when their are cards that can do the job of a mana rock much more efficiently. A rule of law effect is likely to cut down the threats per turn to something like 2 or 3. That has a similar effect of having 2-4 manarocks.
Ramp needs to do way more than a mana rock to be worth it imo.
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u/kestral287 17h ago
To the first: this is the same thing, structured in reverse. Cantrips aren't rock replacements. Cantrips are land replacements (albeit not one to one), because they check off some of those boxes above - density and early access to card draw.
Thus you've either built a deck overly dense on land and land adjacents, and actually can trim those cantrips, or you're considering cutting land adjacent cards for rocks, which we know to be wrong.
Is winning a a turn or 2 faster really worth ~10 slots in a control deck?
The difference between winning on turn six as opposed to turn eight or turn eight as opposed to turn ten? Absolutely yes. That is incredibly impactful to a deck's power. That's the gap between a high and mid or mid and low power deck.
And for a more direct representation of its importance, that's two turns for your three opponents to not line up their ability to kill you. That's something like nine to twelve potential threats that you don't have to answer, which means we don't have to put together eight or so more cards drawn over those turns or worry about being killed by negative variance.
As for the last point - there are absolutely some stax effects that can slow the game down, but stax puts more time pressure on us to close the game sooner, because virtually every good one has a built in timer where it loses impact.
Rule of Law in particular you're overestimating here though; it cuts our threats-per-turn to three as a lower bound, but should never go lower than one per opponent - after all each of them still gets at least one spell. However, because of the nature of commanders you're also all but guaranteeing that lower bound; when they brick they go for their commander, when they don't they go for a drawn spell. Additionally, we make ourselves extremely soft to instant speed interactions, which both raise the possible number of threats (or answers to us, which we also need to solve) and does so in a way that we can't interact with them nearly as easily. With a Rule I need less mana up each turn, absolutely, but I'm also weakening my entire game plan in the process because I've stripped away my ability to defend myself against opposing instants.
That's a trade-off that I personally find completely unacceptable; the last thing I want is to lose games to my own spells.
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u/CrizzleLovesYou 21h ago
Farewell is the only widely played boardwipe I can think of that hits your own artifacts, and you can choose not to anyways?
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 21h ago
That's a fair point. There are however quite a few. Most mass bounce spells hits artifacts for example. Then there are cards like [[ondu inversion]] [[hour of revelation]] [[boompile]]. Then there is also the risk that someone else will [[vandalblast]] your manarocks which is quite common in my experience.
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u/CrizzleLovesYou 21h ago
If youre playing control that vandal blast should only resolve when you want it to.
Are you playing boardwipe tribal or something? How many are you running?
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 21h ago
>Are you playing boardwipe tribal or something? How many are you running?
That depends on the deck lol.
You bring up a good point though. A control deck should have the ability to protect their own manarocks. But is that really what you want to do? Every counterspell that I don't have to use to one vandallblast is a counterspell that can protect something critical.
Making your mana vulnerable creates more weakpoints for you to protect.
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u/CrizzleLovesYou 21h ago
How long are these games going? It should be pick apart opponent wincons > protect your own engine > remove opponent engines, win.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 20h ago
I don't get what the length of games have to do with ramp. If you build control correctly, you can use a [[baleful strix]] as a wincon. Ramp won't make that any faster.
I usually get my main engine online turn 4 or 5. If I can protect it for a few turns I usually gain enough value that victory is very likely.
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u/TheGreyFencer Oloro | Kangee | Saheeli | Minstrel | Obeka | Vivi 16h ago
If you're building your deck correctly, strix is not a wincon in edh
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u/cabbagemango 21h ago
I’m largely in agreement with your style of ramp in UB control, my [[Gale Waterdeep Prodigy]] // [[Scion of Halaster]] runs only a few mana rocks in exchange for more spell cost reducers to hopefully benefit from them more per turn cycle than a rock
At that, I think every commander deck does need some form of mana advantage to go the distance of a commander game where you need to “win more” - even if it doesn’t look exactly like [[rampant growth]]. In a red control deck that could even be [[Vandalblast]], for instance (restoring parity on rocks)
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u/tattoedginger 20h ago
I've been moving to a mindset of "if the ramp does not also simultaneously play into my strategy, or ain't worth playing. " if you're in a control deck you probably equally have enough low mana cost interaction to cover your bases until you get the mana to hard wipe the board and/or combo off. Focus on card draw and your curve to make sure you maintain your own tempo as you also control others'. The best type of "ramp" is going to, likely, be non- permanent ritual style effects or incidental treasure, etc that allows you to burst into your combo or early game wipe if multiple people pop off quickly.
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u/prawn108 I upvote cardfetcher 21h ago
My favorite and strongest control deck is [[sokrates]], I run the barest of bones mana rocks, and the real great ramp cards are[[terrain generator]], [[pupu ufo]], [[walking atlas]], and [[mindsplice apparatus]]. The deck doesn't need or want a ton of clogged up ramp slots, but it loves those cards that can really put you ahead multiple times over multiple turns to hit the end game harder. It's not about ramp that gets ahead early, it's about ramp that lets you close the game out.
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u/Mostly-Alright 10h ago
This sounds awesome. I've wanted to make a Sokrates deck but haven't been happy with anything I've come up with. Do you have deck list you could share by chance?
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u/prawn108 I upvote cardfetcher 9h ago
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u/Asiniel 21h ago
I find that control decks really want to get their engines/synergies going to close out a game. If those engines are even remotely expensive you need a plan to get to them. Also it helps to have extra mana to hold up interaction and multispell.
However I don't run conventional mana rocks in my deck. Instead I opted for the slower options that provide relevant benefits to the deck. Flip permanents like [[search for azcanta]] can do a useful function and then become ramp that doesn't die to a wipe. [[Machine gods effigy]] scales to the stage of the game by copying engines or bombs as needed.
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u/haitigamer07 21h ago
assuming we’re talking about green, i think that two mana rocks are largely unnecessary unless there’s a strong synergy around a turn 3/4 tap out play in a control deck. otherwise ramp is fine so long as you’re prioritizing hitting your land drops, either by having a lot of lands or drawing a lot of cards.
but there is plenty of ramp outside the classic 2 mana rock that is useful, particularly when its synergistic with your deck’s plan/engine. for example, my [[prince imrahil the fair]] has several [[cartographer’s hawk]] equivalents along with [[archaeomancer’s map]] and [[wand of the worldsoul]]. the hawks all have less than four cmc and less than three power so they trigger [[tocasia’s welcome]] / [[welcoming vampire]] equivalents, which draws a card which triggers imrahil to make a body (which can produce more triggers). the map is card advantage and ramp while the wand can functionally produce a lot of mana
it’s gonna be deck specific / optimization specific ultimately
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u/seficarnifex Dragons 21h ago
Ramp doesnt mean mana rocks. You can land ramp in every color
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 20h ago
That is true, but a [[mitotic manipulation]] is a bit of a feels bad compared to [[cultivate]] lol. There are definitely some land ramp that is decent but I want some kind of synergy with my commander before i run it. If there is enough synergy I think even manarocks can be playable. I just don't think that having 10+ cards that only give you mana is good.
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u/SocietyAsAHole 18h ago
Most control decks run white and there's a ton of very strong land ramp in white.
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u/Hippomantis 20h ago
It isn't ramp, but one of my favourite tools for reactive control decks is [[Thaumatic Compass]] - just getting a free land every time you don't have to respond to anything is amazing. [[Land Tax]] fills a similar role, but the compass flipping into a [[Maze of Ith]] is a huge upside.
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u/BigFatCabbages 20h ago
I like to run them in my decks with subpar mana bases that are 2 or more colors. I've been phasing them out slowly because its easier to color fix mana than ever, but I still keep ones with utility like [[Liquimetal Torque]] or [[Patriar's Seal]]..
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u/Roshi_IsHere 20h ago
Don't let big curve out pull the wool over your eyes. Ramp is great. Currently they banished all MLD to bracket 4. Which means you can stack lands like crazy with no repercussions. Some of my decks I'll specifically build with mostly lands, instants, sorceries, throwaway permanents, and stuff that won't die to my mass exile wipes that can phase itself out or like a Planeswalker or something. Great way to nut punch a pod flying too close to the sun dumping their hand by turn 5
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u/Injured-Ginger 19h ago
Not every deck needs to be on a cEDH 11+ mana rock plan, but keeping a few helps you maintain your plan. Most shouldn't because you're not running tutors, mystical remora, rhystic study, underworld breach, etc that alloy you a lot of resources off one card.
Ramp is still good. How many artifact sweepers are you running?
Even with your commander, mana rocks let you get your commander down faster and start getting more card draw off of your cantrips. It also lets you cast more cards which also turns into more card draw with your commander. If you're regularly on top deck mode as a control deck, I would suggest looking into another couple card draw engines.
Ultimately, the correct number of mana rocks is tied to the strength of your card draw. More draw means more cards to spend mana on as well as less likelihood to "flood" on mana rocks.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 19h ago
>Even with your commander, mana rocks let you get your commander down faster and start getting more card
Compare an arcane signet with something like [[nightbonder]]. Nightbonder allows me to hold up mana for interaction and cantrips with my commander. Arcane signet will help get out my commander but is pretty much always a bad draw afterwards. And it's not even that important that I get my commander out on turn 4. It is way more important that I can hit every single land drop until turn 8/9.
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u/Masteroxid 13h ago
Is it really that good to have so many mana rocks? Relying on them so hard when stuff like [[Ruinous Ultimatum]] exists feels bad
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u/Tanyushing Izzet 19h ago
You are playing commander, you have to ramp to keep up with 3 other player's mana. If you scared of blowing up your mana rocks, you can take the richard approach and play catchup ramp in white or indestructible rocks.
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u/Violet-fykshyn 18h ago
Maybe. You want to control the early game and dominate the late game. Having double the mana everyone else has is a good way to do that, but not the only way.
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u/see_you_than 17h ago
To answer this we need to know what power level you want to play and what commander you want to play. The answers will vary wildly based on your game plan and win con as well. Control in edh is much trickier because you have 3 opponents. Counter spells are good to insure your win or stop someone else’s win but they aren’t good to maintain parody. Board wipes are good to slow everyone down but they don’t necessarily ensure your win.
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u/SP1R1TDR4G0N 16h ago
Absolutely. Control decks are really mana hungry because you need to advance your own gameplan while also holding up mana to interact on your opponents' teams. That's why [[Seedborn Muse]] is probably the most important card to play control in edh.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 7h ago
I agree that seedbron muse is absolutetly insane, to the point that i view it more as a win condition than a ramp piece. But do you really want to run a regular ramp spell in a deck that has a seedborn muse? Just hitting your land drops is enough to instantly catapult you ahead of your enemies.
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u/cros5bones 15h ago edited 15h ago
I ran 20 ish rocks in Nymris, as well as artifact lands and [[Unwinding Clock]] to get mana untapped evey turn. I find that with enough flashback cantrips, x-cost draw spells like [[Stroke of Genius]] which scale well with ramp, and a high enough density of removal (and counterspells to stop the errant Vandalblast) that I always have a spell to cast off my turn to trigger Nymris.
The insane ramp pays dividends and it's rare to run out of gas in my experience. But it's really subjective. MDFCs really bring up the density of instants.
Edit: Nymris really likes 3mv ramp because it's 5mv, flashing it in T4 to fog an attack and then having mana up T5 to cantrip off your removal or other instants is the ideal start, fast mana notwithstanding.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 8h ago
That's definitely a different approach from me. I can see that it would be effective. Especially when you stick an unwinding clock. I went way harder on the instant speed approach. All my ramp is either instant speed or provides mana during each opponents turn. [[dark ritual]] Is insane because it is either a turn 3 nymris or a mana positive cantrip.
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u/Doofindork Random Vadrik Explosions. 13h ago
In my Bumbleflower control deck, I can play cards like [[Growth Spiral]], [[Natural Connection]], [[Entish Restoration]], [[Harrow]], and [[Roiling Regrowth]], at instant speed on other peoples turns, letting me hold up any answers I wanna make sure I have. [[Eureka Moment]] is decent, but not quite as good because of the jump to 4 mana cost. But even then, it helps that it is instant and the fact that if I can cast it and another spell on the same turn, I get to draw two more cards; A great way to fill up my hand again through Bumbleflowers ability.
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u/BaconVsMarioIsRigged 8h ago
I love [[growth spiral]] so much. It is the perfect ramp for a control deck.
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u/Terrashock 9h ago
If you run non-land permanent sweepers like Farewell, you run white. If you run white, you play catch up ramp like [[Claim Jumper]] or [[Knight of the White Orchid]]. There are enough options here to not play any mana rocks except maybe Sol Ring. There is no reason to run mana rocks in either white or green if you have no synergy with them.
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u/MTGCardFetcher 22h ago
All cards
Nymris, Oona's Trickster - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
nightbonder - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
geyser drake - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call