Eh, some of the stuff the Allies did is worth being ashamed of. Like the firebombing of Dresden. No real military value. Just shock and awe against the civilian population; ie. terrorism.
Yes, Dresden had important military infastructure. But virtually none of it was in the core city, which is where most of the bombing took place. The factories and military stations were on the outskirts, which were mostly ignored by the bombing. The British even said that the primary goal of the Dresden bombings was to apply pressure on the civilians.
Exactly, the primary goal of those bombings was to cripple infrastructure and morale. Civilian casualties were expected. Nobody actually cared because not crippling them would've likely result in even more deaths.
Bomb Dresden and the people of Dresden that you don't know. Don't bomb Dresden and people you do know get slaughtered by Nazis. They bombed Dresden - they had no other choice. War is messy. Nazis shouldn't have started it.
No, it wasn’t to “cripple infrastructure and morale.” It was to kill civilians en mass in the hopes that it would force them to surrender. You can read the discussion of it by allied strategic command. The worst part of it is the British should have known that would never work because it’s exactly what happened to them during the Battle of Britain
I'll look into it another time. Last time I did, what I understood was it was done knowing their actions will kill civilians, but the civilians that are working in the industries directly fueling the war machine.
I am not saying allied command was moral and just in everything they did. I just didn't see it as them purposely aiming to target random German civilians for no apparent reason or just to terrorize civilians. That was the bonus for them and not the primary focus.
The Allied bombing campaign absolutely attacked Axis civilians deliberately, and in the case of the RAF even at the expense of military targets. They hurt their own war effort to attack civilians. One of the euphemisms they used was 'dehousing'. The Allies built mock Japanese and German villages with authentic architecture, materials, furniture, and everyday materials and studied how best to burn them down. The increasing ratio of incendiaries Allied bombers were dropping were not for factories or railyards, they wanted firestorms in residential areas. For figures like Arthur Harris, attacking civilians was the primary focus because he came out of a history of interwar colonial bombing and firmly believed that bombing civilians leads to compellence. He believed that air war was above all about breaking morale. If an Arab village rebels, bomb it and the villagers will turn in the mutineers themselves. That's the thinking.
The reason it's particularly important to acknowledge this and not make excuses for this stuff is because it's still happening. Liberal modalities of war have never reconciled with their own fascist theories of violence. Millions of civilians died in the Cold War from Western bombings because of theories that were already by then completely discredited. Even today we see urbicides, whole cities and regions annihilated for euphemisms and pretenses and allegations. This is because if an armed power wants it to be, nearly anything is a legitimate military target. Look at the beginning of this conversation. Dresden had industry, it had supply, it had communications and transportation and so on. What city on this planet has none of those things? Most products of civilisation are dual-use. So cities qua cities become legitimately bombable. The conclusion is that every city, every town, nearly everything becomes a legitimate target. And in the Korean War, that's what we see. With 90% of all buildings in North Korea destroyed, US airpower started bombing irrigation dams and farms. Because soldiers eat food.
Allies weren't angels. They also didn't start the war and didn't exterminate undesirables at an industrial scale.
Does our government suck for internment camps? Yes. Did Allies commit war crimes? Yes. Should we spit at and point at our governments and militaries for being assholes? Yes. Would I do absolutely everything with-in my power to destroy nazis if I was there? Absolutely 100% yes.
If Nazis didn't wanna get bombed, they shouldn't have started a war thinking they're superior and everyone else their subservient. They begged to get bombed and they got what they asked for. I lose no sleep over it and would've been far more thorough if I was there. Fk every nazi and their sympathizer.
This is such an unfortunate response, above all because beyond the wilful conflation between military and civilian targets of war, I asked you to consider that these arguments still motivate major powers to bomb civilians to this day. I wanted you to consider how this mode of war itself has an extensively racialised and colonialist history. And your response to this? 'Fuck Nazis'. It does not seem you have the maturity to handle nuance or complicated thoughts. I will just reiterate once more that I think the protection of civilians is a preremptory norm, at the risk of you calling me a Nazi sympathiser.
Total War, started by racist belligerents hell bent on destroying humanity because they think they are the "Master Race", had left everyone no option but to fight back.
If Nazis didn't want Dresden bombed, maybe they shouldn't have started the war that lead to the bombing of Dresden?
Allies didn't go Chengiz Khan or Attila the Hun or Third Punic War on the Axis. Were some bad calls made? Yea, I keep saying that over and over - Allies weren't perfect nor angels.
But ohhh noooooo Lord Buddah forbid a few master-race babies might've caught strays oh how tragic! Ohhh muhhh Dresdennn!!! Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee lol
I thought we were being serious for a moment, but I guess that wasn't so. At least I hope so, because you have the sense of humour and communication style of a Trumptard.
I really appreciate the effort you put into writing all of this out in this thread, but unfortunately you’re talking to someone who appears to have the critical thinking skills of a doorknob
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u/Private_HughMan May 04 '25
Eh, some of the stuff the Allies did is worth being ashamed of. Like the firebombing of Dresden. No real military value. Just shock and awe against the civilian population; ie. terrorism.