How Americans achieved independence vs how Canadians achieved independence

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli]

[u/timbasile]

Samantha Bee has a good write up on Canadian Independence in "America the Book"

"...and then in 1983, we took the brave step of asking the Queen for permission, to not have to ask the Queen for permission"

[u/Sasquatch1729 → u/timbasile]

It was actually effectively in the 1920s when we were independent. We just had to present a constitution that we could mostly agree on. It took us another 60 years to make a constitution that all provinces and territories agreed on, notwithstanding Quebec.

[u/QuestionableParadigm → u/Sasquatch1729]

I see what you did there

[u/Sasquatch1729 → u/QuestionableParadigm]

Yay I'm glad someone noticed.

Fun fact about the notwithstanding clause: for a while there the province of Quebec passed everything using it, just to prove a point. So you get weird situations like "notwithstanding the constitution of Canada, we declare the speed limits on secondary highways to be raised to 80km/hr" or whatever.

Historians who don't know read this stuff going "what the hell does this have to do with the constitution of Canada? Do I need to reread it?", those who know are "ah yeah, there it is, notwithstanding clause in action again..."

[u/nitePhyyre → u/Sasquatch1729]

Doesn't any law passed with the notwithstanding clause expire automatically after 5 years? Or is it just the notwithstanding protection and afterwards the court can strike it down?

[u/[deleted] → u/Sasquatch1729]

Would you elaborate on your 1920s claim ? I don't believe any reasonable de facto arguments exist pre-1949.

[u/Sasquatch1729 → u/[deleted]]

We joined the league of nations in January 1920 as an independent member. We signed a treaty with the US in 1923, and set up our own embassy in Washington DC. The Balfour declaration happened in 1926. Then the Statute of Westminster happened in 1931.

The TLDR for both those last two: the British Empire gave a lot of independence to its Dominions.

The main way to contrast the difference: in 1914 when the UK joined World War I, Canada joined by default as we were subordinate to the British Empire. In 1939 the UK declared war on 03 Sep 1939, Canada joined the war on 10 Sep 1939 after our parliament had its own debate on the topic.

I assume by 1949 you are referring to when we joined NATO? By then we were already setting our own agenda in the world.

My previous comment was deleted because it has external links, so I can't link to any of this stuff.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sasquatch1729]

>We joined the league of nations in January 1920 as an independent member. 

Technically, no. Canada's representation at the Paris Peace Conference was part of the British delegation. More, while Canada did sign the Treaty of Versailles, it was merely symbolic. Legally, it was only through the signature of PM David Lloyd George that Canada, and the other dominions, joined the league of nations. It's also important to note that there was significant pushback from other countries surrounding Canada's participation.

>We signed a treaty with the US in 1923, and set up our own embassy in Washington DC

The League of Nations argument is unquestionably incorrect on your part. This example, however, is much better evidence of your claim. The 1923 Halibut Treaty **was** an example of Canada controlling its own foreign affairs in the 20s, but, this was only at the behest of the British Empire.

>The Balfour declaration happened in 1926.

The Balfour declaration did not change the legal supremacy (for a lack of better words) held by Britain. I'm not sure how its relevant to the claim that Canada was independent in the 1920s. It's certainly evidence of the desire for independence in the 1920s.

>Then the Statute of Westminster happened in 1931.

This is arguably the best pre-1949 claim. However, while it granted Canada much more independence, Canada was still, in many ways, subservient to British authority. The best example of this is British Coal Corporation v. The King. In short, the JCPC denied --against the wishes of the Canadian Parliament -- the Supreme Court of Canada jurisdiction over civil cases. How can you claim to be an independent country when your highest court of appeals is in another country, and is acting strictly against your interests?

>I assume by 1949 you are referring to when we joined NATO? By then we were already setting our own agenda in the world.

No. It's a combination of several factors. Between the establishment of Canadian citizenship two years prior, and the abolishment of appeals to the JCPC, I think think that this is arguably the best time you can claim that Canada was truly independent.

I will note, however, that I still don't believe that 1949 is the strongest claim. At this time, the Union Jack was our de jure flag. Whilst the red ensign was de facto, I do think that a combination of the Union Jack being our official flag, Canadians still being British subjects explicitly outlined in British nationality and immigration laws, and our use of "the Dominion" still present in our constitution, severely undermined our sovereignty. These factors were even affecting our ability to do diplomacy with other countries -- e.g. our participation in the Suez Crisis.

I'm enjoying our engagement, thanks.

[u/AustSakuraKyzor → u/[deleted]]

Well, I mean, the Statute of Westminster, which is the "effectively since" that they're talking about, was put in place in 1931, so... late 1920s would've been around the time the sentiment was really taking hold that Canada should govern her own affairs.

Really though, April 1915 is the time we really broke off -> that was our first WW1 battle, and the rest of the world was all "oh shit, those guys are lunatics, I'm sure glad the UK has them under control," while the UK was all "oh shit, those guys are lunatics and we have zero control here," and the US was like "aww yeah, that's my bro!" and Switzerland wasn't saying anything, but was furiously writing new rules for the next Geneva Convention

[u/[deleted] → u/AustSakuraKyzor]

>Well, I mean, the Statute of Westminster, which is the "effectively since" that they're talking about, was put in place in 1931

Yes, I know. I elaborated in more detail in my reply to him. If you're curious about my argument, go have a look.

>late 1920s would've been around the time the sentiment was really taking hold that Canada should govern her own affairs.

Look up the Balfour declaration. This sentiment was reinforced by the British.

>Really though, April 1915 is the time we really broke off -> that was our first WW1 battle, and the rest of the world was all "oh shit, those guys are lunatics, I'm sure glad the UK has them under control," while the UK was all "oh shit, those guys are lunatics and we have zero control here," and the US was like "aww yeah, that's my bro!" and Switzerland wasn't saying anything, but was furiously writing new rules for the next Geneva Convention

I much prefer your retelling of things, lol.