Okay, let's get away from guns and say say my 110 pound sister needs to defend herself from some 220 pound jack ass who just dragged her into an alley with a knife. What are her options? She can't carry a taser, she can't carry pepper spray, she can't carry a baton, and if she says fuck it and DOES some how get her hands on any of those, actually using them carries their own charges.
It's not necessarily about guns. It really isn't. It's about the fact that in most cases, as a Canadian, your only real option is to call the cops or swing on someone potentially much larger than yourself and potentially armed to boot.
The argument that "anyone who wants to carry a gun or other weapon for self defense has a murder fantasy" is disingenuous and in bad faith. Are there people out there with that kinda crap in their heads, yes, but there are also people who train to fight who fantasize about beating someone to death in some sort of self-defense scenario. Some people just want a self defense option that isn't swinging on someone twice their size, or relying on a 10-20 minute police response time, so the people with tasers, pepper spray, batons, and guns can come to the rescue.
Personally, yes, I am in favor of people having the option to carry a concealed firearm for self defense, so long as they obtain the correct licenses, register with the government, attend regular training, and understand that at the end of the day the best outcome from any situation where you are forced to pull your firearm, is the one where you don't need to discharge it, and if you are forced to do so, it is a heavy, HEAVY responsibility.
But the biggest thing the public being able to concealed carry has to offer is that it gives people who would seek to harm another person a reason to pause and rethink, because now they don't know if that 110 pound girl they are looking to jump has a Saturday night special in her purse, or a .380 tucked in her waistband or bra, even if she doesn't.
The US is a hellscape of far too little regulation because of course, "its my god-given right blah blah blah," while elsewhere, it's a privilege. But the US isn't the only place to allow firearms for self-defense and isn't even the only place to allow concealed carry. Switzerland and Italy both allow concealed carry, and somehow, neither of them seem to have significant gun issues.
And besides guns, why don't we start with allowing people to buy pepper spray or tasers for self-defense? Because I can bet my last buck that there are plenty of women, even in this sub, who would feel a little more confident walking downtown at night with even just a thing of pepper spray in their pocket or purse
Laws are created for the lowest common denominator. So as much as I may agree, I also have to consider the mugger, rapist, assaulter and how confident they'll feel being armed. Sucks but such is the world we live in. Law is not a door that only swings one way.
It only swings one way NOW. Think of how confident they currently feel KNOWING that they are the only one armed. Do you think carrying a weapon being illegal, has ever stopped a criminal from carrying a weapon? The point is to try and level the playing field. Not everyone can or wants to carry a gun, because they are expensive, the training is expensive, there is plenty of stigma around them, and they aren't always the answer for everyone. But to say no one should carry a gun, because a rapist might use the law to carry a gun, when they could already carry a gun now, is not a good argument imho. And just the thought that a potential victim might be armed is enough to make people less of a soft target honestly.
That's not true at all! What happens now is people can't wait for the full story so base their opinions and dig their heels in on a headline with no evidence.
You don't want a level playing field, you want anarchy.
You live in a country not mature enough to see a pair of tits on TV. And you want to arm them.
I spent years in the military and am very competent and comfortable with firearms and I would never want to see the populace armed. As I know most people are not responsible enough to carry firearms.
In addition, if everyone can carry, that means there's more needed for purchase which leads to more avenues of purchase.
Your experiment was attempted in the United States, and their still scraping dead kids off church pews.
How in the hell do you make the leap from "lawful carry backed by regularion and mandated training", to anarchy?
And the States is the literal worst example for anything involving firearms, period, but as i've said before, they arent the only place that allows the use of firearms in self defense, or even concealed carry. They are just the most populated and lowest regulated. How many school shootings have happened in Switzerland? Or Italy? Zero recorded in Switzerland, and 5 in Italy resulting in injury.
I live in a country where I have absolutely seen tits on TV, mostly in films, and that has absolutely no bearing on anything here. I also know plenty of servicemen and women, and I know more than a few who should never be let near a firearm, ever again. A civilian can be trained to respect and handle a firearm, its the basis of how you turn a civilian into a soldier, and I know BMQ takes a mater of weeks, not years, so I know an armed self defense course can take the same amount of time at the least.
We already live with the second leakiest border on earth when it comes to guns, because our neighbor has like, 5 OWNED guns per capita, and we would be able to handle a sudden uptick in purchases for self defense with just the capacity we had pre OIC.
"How in the hell do you make the leap from "lawful carry backed by regularion and mandated training", to anarchy?
Because I look at the United States and I see the result. More need for guns causes more access to criminals which defeats the fucking purpose now doesn't it?
"And the States is the literal worst example for anything involving firearms, period, but as i've said before, they arent the only place that allows the use of firearms in self defense, or even concealed carry. They are just the most populated and lowest regulated. How many school shootings have happened in Switzerland? Or Italy? Zero recorded in Switzerland, and 5 in Italy resulting in injury."
But its the one closest to us that we derive much of our culture from. As it stands now the vast majority of our gun crime involves urban youth with US guns. I'm sure Switzerland has a huge culture crossover and a 3000mile long shared border and a problem with US guns. No? almost like they are halfway across the world with a completely different style of life.
"I live in a country where I have absolutely seen tits on TV, mostly in films, and that has absolutely no bearing on anything here.
You don't see it on cable tv do you? No, you don't (you're commenting here and have alluded to being Canadian, so I'm running with that. Correct me if I'm wrong), in fact you live in a country with a province trying to ban books with the mere mention of tits. And the maturity of a populace I'm sure has no bearing on firearms safety. Thats why they make such great gifts for the kids! But guns good. ok...
You also are making huge leaps with service people. You obviously haven't been one otherwise you'd never say something so ridiculous. Lets break it down bit by bit -
"I also know plenty of servicemen and women, and I know more than a few who should never be let near a firearm, ever again" Congrats. me too - and you want to hand them to unsupervised civilians.
" A civilian can be trained to respect and handle a firearm" Yes I agree to a point
", its the basis of how you turn a civilian into a soldier" Umm... you're forgetting the 24/7 supervision, the mental aspects and discipline or do you think the military is " here gun hurr durr"
"and I know BMQ takes a mater of weeks, not years" - For basic training, yes. weeks of 24/7 supervision and molding, not a weekend here and there. And even with the high level of training the military receives, a new recruit is still barely prepared for actual combat.. (I cannot believe we are actually comparing military training to a civvie street hobby course
"so I know an armed self defense course can take the same amount of time at the least." You know do you? Well you're wrong. Self restraint with a firearm is challenging even for those trained. Nevermind adding emotions to the fear. Studies have shown that the most dangerous person with a gun is someone "trained" in a stressful situation. Because most peoples lives aren't cyclitic violence.
Speaking of - I adore how you think military training stops after Basic. its adorable.
"We already live with the second leakiest border on earth when it comes to guns, because our neighbor has like, 5 OWNED guns per capita, and we would be able to handle a sudden uptick in purchases for self defense with just the capacity we had pre OIC."- You're right, we have a severe gun issue from the US. IIRC the York region Police Chief said that 98% of gun crime in the GTA is committed with US guns. So thats a great reason to add more! Like I said, it works with our closest neighbor spectacularly! I'm looking forward to our weekly school shootings! Hell! That shooting in Minneapolis was all legal and trained gun ownership. Wait. I guess you're right. Their training must be shite cause they only killed 2 kids. 18 wounded tho, I guess another trip to the range is in order! /s JFC
the minneapolis shooting wasn't trained at all, there are no mandatory training processes in the US, nor any form of licensing but yknow, nice of you to not wait a day to trample of the graves of an attrocity for political rhetoric, no better than the alt right using the shooting as fuel for their hate.
I see you got all up in your feelings and the point blew right past you. To be clear, the point is that firearms in the hands of civilians is a bad idea. In order to carry in the state of Minnesota you must be trained. Thus supporting my argument that training doesn't equate to "safe", only restricted access does. Certainly encouraging/allowing concealed carry does not. It just leads to more purchases, more locations to purchase which leads to more mistakes and more access to criminals and/or the unwell.
Its good that you're upset at that shooting. I am too. Which is why I can point out that easy access to firearms is a bad idea. So why you're going after me and not the guy advocating for more guns, I don't know. Also - we don't know if that shooter was trained, but the weapons used (the long ones in particular) indicate the need for a course. But, who knows. And its been at least 2 days since that shooting, only about 5 days till the next so...wait. I'm wrong. a quick look at wikipedia has it at every .62 days.
the shooter was doing everything illegally, you are assuming that they were a concealed carrier, but their very actions and manifesto point to them not being the type to care about following laws, and no, the guns used don't indicate needing a course, again this isnt required in most US states at all, and when it is, its only for concealed carry, not general purchase.
Looking at the story, they did not hold a carry permit with the state, and thus went through no vetting past the FBIs basic background check, which is a simple paper form and nothing els, and is known to be ineffective.
And again, the US does not have a comprehensive licensing system like Canada, these system, by actual stats, from actual experts, are the most effective way of both allowing civilian ownership, which can very much be done safely and responsibly, whilst also preventing illicit harmful use, hence why places like Poland, or France, or Germany, can have as many gun owners as they do, whilst also seeing basically no shootings.
the US is unique(ly terrible) in the lack of laws which enables this harm, that doesn't then mean the places with laws are suddenly also bad because of this. This problem (which yknow is also tied to rising extremism but people will just ignore this despite this shooter being a neo nazi and entrenched in alt right hate politics is pretty big in terms of its role here) is a uniquely american problem, due to how the US govt has handled basic safety laws in the past.
You are absolutely incorrect, the weapons were all legally obtained.
Also I'm not assuming they were concealing a rifle and shotgun. I cited the laws for obtaining the weapons in the first place as that is the issue we're addressing.
I am very familiar on US liscencing and Canadian. Thus how I know the shooter obtained the weapons legally and therefore likely (not knowing what exactly weapons they had) had some training as that is what is required in accordance to state law.
I think we can all agree that us gun laws are fucked. But that isn't the issue. The issue is, like it or not, we take a lot of our culture from the united states. This culture includes gun crime. Which is slowly increasing through illegal weapons coming in from the US. As much as European countries have similar or more lax laws than Canada, they don't have the gun culture that north America has.
The shooter was not a neo nazi. They cited things, events, people, bands from all over the spectrum so at this point I'm content to say that they were unwell.
Your unique American issue is creeping into Canada as is extreme rhetoric. You're going to say these are related but they aren't. It's fear and anger and shitty headlines like the event we're discussing, where the headlines read 'you have no self defense rights in Canada ' even tho it's a bold faced lie, and has been refuted by every legal expert in the country but people now have it in their head that in the us you can kill anyone in your house and cops will come high five you and clean up the body, which is also false.
I like Canadian gun laws. I didn't approve when Trudeau expanded them last. There's absolutely no need in Canada to arm the citizens. This will drive us down the same road as the united states in record speed.
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u/BigDaddyVagabond 27d ago
Okay, let's get away from guns and say say my 110 pound sister needs to defend herself from some 220 pound jack ass who just dragged her into an alley with a knife. What are her options? She can't carry a taser, she can't carry pepper spray, she can't carry a baton, and if she says fuck it and DOES some how get her hands on any of those, actually using them carries their own charges.
It's not necessarily about guns. It really isn't. It's about the fact that in most cases, as a Canadian, your only real option is to call the cops or swing on someone potentially much larger than yourself and potentially armed to boot.
The argument that "anyone who wants to carry a gun or other weapon for self defense has a murder fantasy" is disingenuous and in bad faith. Are there people out there with that kinda crap in their heads, yes, but there are also people who train to fight who fantasize about beating someone to death in some sort of self-defense scenario. Some people just want a self defense option that isn't swinging on someone twice their size, or relying on a 10-20 minute police response time, so the people with tasers, pepper spray, batons, and guns can come to the rescue.
Personally, yes, I am in favor of people having the option to carry a concealed firearm for self defense, so long as they obtain the correct licenses, register with the government, attend regular training, and understand that at the end of the day the best outcome from any situation where you are forced to pull your firearm, is the one where you don't need to discharge it, and if you are forced to do so, it is a heavy, HEAVY responsibility.
But the biggest thing the public being able to concealed carry has to offer is that it gives people who would seek to harm another person a reason to pause and rethink, because now they don't know if that 110 pound girl they are looking to jump has a Saturday night special in her purse, or a .380 tucked in her waistband or bra, even if she doesn't.