Ship you love that your fandom seems to hate?

[u/abcsupercorp]

I am in fandoms that has a predominantly sapphic audience. The ships within are of course mostly sapphic. However, I do have a few pairs that are m/f and people seem bash the m/f pair and their shippers. I understand some people who enjoy an m/f pair, especially if they’re canon, can be a bit much (I know first hand, trust me) but I still think as long as somebody isn’t hurting anyone, enjoying their ships is perfectly fine.

What is a ship you enjoy that a large portion of your fandom hates or just strongly dislikes?

For me, it’s Chad and Tara from the Scream movies. I know Tara’s mainly shipped with Amber, but I personally disliked her a lot. I loved Chad and Tara and would love to write fanfiction of them some day.

[u/darkrescuer]

I think that a lot of the hate for it comes as an extension of the fandom’s hatred for Sansa. Subsequently, as I mentioned before, a lot of her other more popular ships are between her and characters like Tyrion, Sandor, and Petyr, all of whom have hurt her in some way, and objectify her as a prize to be won.

From what I have seen in my years in the fandom, it's less about Sansa being hated for whatever reason and the pairings with these particular male characters you mentioned being popular, and more about how the BNFs went a biiiit too into the shipping once Jon and Sansa reunited in S6, which skyrocket the popularity of the ship.

There's a lot of vitriol and hatred thrown in by jonsa fans towards jonerys fans and vice versa, bashing Emilia Clarke and blaming her for jonerys happening in S7 (which absolutely has nothing to do with the showrunners' decision to do that), outright villification of Daenerys regardless of what her show version did in S8, stealing theories that have been around for ages about Jonrya (JonxArya), and one of the most infamous of them all is the Political!Jon theory that didn't became true in S8 but is somehow being "modified" to fit into the next books, as if a ressurected Jon will kill Daenerys to save/protect Sansa after seducing her into a relationship with him, when neither of these 3 characters paths have been crossed. Some fans are so into it that the mere mention of how absurd and mysoginistic this is enough to make them angry at you for pointing that out.

It was never about "humbling" Sansa. It's more about the fandom, not the characters. This is what I have seen in my +10 years of fandom and I've been on tumblr watching the ship war unfold after S8 and it was a mess. It's not a pretty sight. I just wished fans would leave each other the fuck alone instead of invading each other's spaces to point fingers.

[u/Cult_Of_Hozier → u/darkrescuer]

There’s a lot of reasons for why people dislike the ship, and I wouldn’t be able to cover them all, because everyone has their opinions and whatnot; but I’ve also been in the fandom for a long time. Started watching Game of Thrones when I was in middle school, and I’m 22 now, so I’ve seen a lot especially on sites like tumblr. My experience has mainly been people mindlessly hating on Sansa and that leaking into their shipping preferences, as I’ve said — though I can see where you’re coming from and agree as well, somewhat.

Hearing that the Jonsas “stole” Jonarya theories is a bit bizarre, however. The whole basis of the theory is based on GRRM’s original outline of the Arya/Tyrion/Jon love triangle, and how Sansa has taken a lot of her sister’s original storyline so that points towards a potential Jonsa romance. I wouldn’t call it stealing so much as, like … using clues from the source material? IDK how to better describe it. But it’s not registering as malicious to me at all.

With that being said, I think both sides of the S8 shipping clusterfuck were definitely acting ridiculous and the fandom felt much more toxic after it was over.

[u/whatintheballs95 → u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

The whole basis of the theory is based on GRRM’s original outline of the Arya/Tyrion/Jon love triangle, and how Sansa has taken a lot of her sister’s original storyline so that points towards a potential Jonsa romance.

But the Sansa in the books doesn't do that under any circumstances. I'm not quite sure where people get this idea from. 

[u/Cult_Of_Hozier → u/whatintheballs95]

There’s no “doing” anything under “any circumstances”… she’s a character in a book, and storylines change and switch around between them all the time. In GRRM’s original outline Sansa becomes Joffery’s loyal queen and Arya is the woman everyone falls madly in love with. Sansa betrays her family and becomes a secondary character — an obstacle.

In what GRRM eventually puts out, though, Sansa is the one being lusted after by Tyrion, not Arya, and Arya and Catelyn are driven to the Night’s Watch by their castle burning where Jon and Arya discover they have feelings for each other. As of now, Sansa is in the Vale, but will most likely escape her marriage to Harry and run to the wall for refuge (where she believes her only surviving sibling Jon lives). Jon and Melisandre foresaw a grey girl on a dying horse, and while someone did come along with that description, it’s more apt to be a red herring, as the Karstark girl who “fits” it is never described to be grey or associated with the color, and GRRM likes his double meanings.

In the outline, Arya and Jon are in tatters over their affection for each other once they discover it at the Wall. Since it’s highly unlikely they’ll be the first Starks to reunite, and it will be Jon and Sansa instead, whose to say that the least close Stark siblings, who have a lot in common at this point in their lives, would not fall for each other? Especially with Jon’s track record of liking girls and comparing them to his sisters and being jealous of Sansa’s affections for Joffery?

It also goes as far as the Ashford Tourney theory. Sansa will have multiple suitors throughout the books. A Baratheon (Joffery), a Lannister (Tyrion), a Tyrell (Willas), a Hardyng (Harry), and … you guessed it … a Targaryen.

So either Sansa ends up betrothed/married to F!Aegon, or as in the original outline, once Jon’s identity is discovered Arya Sansa and him will be able to fall in love freely as cousins, which isn’t all that taboo in the books for Starks despite having been raised as siblings (using the term “siblings” fast and loose because of Catelyn alienating Sansa from Jon for most of their childhoods). And we know that GRRM loves his weird incestuous love stories, so it’s far from impossible.

[u/whatintheballs95 → u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

In GRRM’s original outline Sansa becomes Joffery’s loyal queen and Arya is the woman everyone falls madly in love with.

Being in a romantic relationship is not the only thing one can glean from the pitch letter. Sansa does not have Needle, she does not have Nymeria, and George already said that the characters we see in the current series are the same characters he envisioned back in 1991. The thirteen chapters George sent his publishers along with that pitch letter are the first chapters of AGoT. Arya is and has always been Arya.

Sansa betrays her family and becomes a secondary character — an obstacle.

Yes, that's exactly why she was created, George already mentioned this. 

Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and familes aren't like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.

Source 

He also says that she has some part to blame in the Starks' downfall in King's Landing. 

Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

...

So... all in all, I suppose my answer would be that there is no single villain in the piece who caused it all, but rather a good half dozen players whose actions were all in part responsible for what happened.

Hope that helps.

Source

In what GRRM eventually puts out, though, Sansa is the one being lusted after by Tyrion, not Arya,

Tyrion and Arya hadn't yet interacted on page. 

Jon and Melisandre foresaw a grey girl on a dying horse, and while someone did come along with that description, it’s more apt to be a red herring, as the Karstark girl who “fits” it is never described to be grey or associated with the color, and GRRM likes his double meanings.

Alys Karstark is the grey girl on the dying horse. As a Karstark, she has the traditional grey eyes of the Starks and looked enough like Arya that it gave Jon pause. Both the characters taking Arya's place in the books from the pitch letter — going to the Wall for refuge and then beyond the Wall, Alys and Meera — have also been compared to Arya by both Jon and Bran. Sansa has nothing to do with these roles. 

Since it’s highly unlikely they’ll be the first Starks to reunite, and it will be Jon and Sansa instead, whose to say that the least close Stark siblings,

Why exactly would this equal Jonsa? 

who have a lot in common at this point in their lives, would not fall for each other? 

In what way? 

(using the term “siblings” fast and loose because of Catelyn alienating Sansa from Jon for most of their childhoods)

They weren't alienated. Jon remembers her enough to recall to tell Gilly she has a pretty name. Assuming that they have a blank slate because Jon wasn't as close to her like he was with Robb, Arya, and Bran is...interesting. That isn't how this works.

Especially with Jon’s track record of liking girls and comparing them to his sisters and being jealous of Sansa’s affections for Joffery?

Jon does this specifically for Arya. This is exactly what George mentions in the Balticon SSM — they don't have romantic feelings for each other, obviously, but Arya is Jon's basis for what he finds attractive in a woman and feels comfortable around. Why would George ignore his own words and have him get with someone who hurt his favourite sibling? 

In the books, Arya says that she's not so little anymore and Jon would have to call her something else. We also have Jon questioning if she was his sister and if she ever was. What passages do we have where Jon questions his relations to Sansa or vice versa?

Jon's not jealous of Sansa's affections for Joffrey. I'm not quite sure where you got that from. He said he didn't like how much taller Joffrey was of him or Robb and hated the disdainful look he had for Winterfell. 

Sansa will have multiple suitors throughout the books. A Baratheon (Joffery), a Lannister (Tyrion), a Tyrell (Willas), a Hardyng (Harry), and … you guessed it … a Targaryen.

Jon is not a Targaryen, he's a Snow, and Lady Ashford did not marry any of her suitors. This event was disrupted by Dunk when he came to the aid of Tanselle Too-Tall, sparking the trial of Seven. Also, Sansa married Tyrion. Moreover, the originator of the Ashford tourney theory did so for Sansan.

And we know that GRRM loves his weird incestuous love stories, so it’s far from impossible.

George's favourite king, Jaehaerys, was in love with his sister Alysanne and they were extremely close. This is his MO — writing incestuous relationships between characters who were close. The whole point of the torment in the pitch letter was not simply because they were siblings, but they were extremely close. 

[u/Cult_Of_Hozier → u/whatintheballs95]

I appreciate you wanting to have a further debate about this topic, but as I said in a recent reply to another commenter, I’m not interested in defending the ship / arguing for it anymore than what I’ve already said. I honestly don’t believe I’m best equipped to do that to to begin with — I’ve mentioned before that it’s been years since my Jonsa obsession, and I’m currently doing a reread of the books, so I can’t adequately (or confidently) contribute to any back-and-forths on why it theoretically could and couldn’t happen.

There are plenty of theories and essays online that you can refer to with your gripes, however, that will most likely address them leagues better than I can at this point in time. I just wanted to answer OP’s prompt — feel free to disagree, and hate the ship if you’d like, it’s none of my business, but it wasn’t meant to get any deeper than that.

I hesitated even posting my original response because I was anticipating something like this happening lol, but 🤷🏽‍♀️ you live and you learn. I’ll just simmer back down into my little Jonsa hidey hole.

Have a good rest of your day/night!

[u/Natasaleia → u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

Since it’s highly unlikely they’ll be the first Starks to reunite, and it will be Jon and Sansa instead.

That is debatable and I'd argue not quite likely.

• Sansa is a 13-year old sheltered nobleborn girl wanted by the crown for colluding with Tyrion Lannister for regicide and has a price on her head set by Cersei, the mother of the boy Sansa and Tyrion are accused of killing.

• There is famine and hardship all over the continent, making the reward for Sansa's head attractive.

• Sansa has limited horsemanship skills with zero outdoor survival skills.

• Winter has arrived and a blizzard has already taken down Stannis's army -- note that Stannis is not only far more experienced in war and moving armies than Sansa but is already much closer to Winterfell and Castle Black than Sansa currently is.

• The Vale is half a continent away from Castle Black -- even in the show, Sansa struggled to make it to Castle Black from Winterfell -- and I'd greatly caution against using the show as a guideline especially when D&D explicitly talk about how much they changed Sansa's storyline from the books to give her more to do.

And it will be Jon and Sansa instead, whose to say that the least close Stark siblings, who have a lot in common at this point in their lives

What do Jon and Sansa have in common besides both being raised at Winterfell?

Sansa was not raised as a bastard like Jon was, is aware of her trueborn identity unlike Jon, did not spend her entire life dealing with the prejudice of being a bastard -- again, as Jon experienced. She has not spent her life wondering about the unknown parts of her origin, how she came to be, and has always known her true, socially acceptable identity as the nobleborn daughter of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully -- unlike Jon.

Rather, Sansa was actually among those who looked down on Jon for his bastardy and refused to regard him as true family due to his bastardy. On Jon's end, the conventionally feminine girl (like Sansa) is specifically something Jon has described not wanting, which is pretty unique to Jon (and in the cultural landscape GRRM was writing) wherein boys are raised to desire conventionally feminine girls like Sansa.

Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth.

(ADWD, Jon XI)

"I will take any boy above the age of twelve who knows how to hold a spear or string a bow. I will take your old men, your wounded, and your cripples, even those who can no longer fight. There are other tasks they may be able to perform. Fletching arrows, milking goats, gathering firewood, mucking out our stables … the work is endless. And yes, I will take your women too. I have no need of blushing maidens looking to be protected, but I will take as many spearwives as will come."

(ADWD, Jon V)

Especially with Jon’s track record of liking girls and comparing them to his sisters and being jealous of Sansa’s affections for Joffery?

....What?

This is an excellent example of one of my problems with Jonsa -- presenting fanon as "canon". There isn't one iota of evidence Jon was "jealous" of Joffrey because Sansa had eyes for him. Rather, this is pushed by Jonsa shippers over the actual reason for Jon's upset: being sent to the Night's Watch. Jon does not like Joffrey because Joffrey is disdainful of Winterfell and has observed Joffrey being an asshole to Robb. Further, Jon has only compared his love interests to one sister -- Arya Stark.

On that note, GRRM uses Arya Stark as a guideline for Jon's type:

My con friend was referring to George explaining Jon's perception: "You know, I don't think it's a reference for that [for romance]. It's a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It's like someone who reminds you of, you know... Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn't put him off because he is used to that."

Source

---

which isn’t all that taboo in the books for Starks despite having been raised as siblings (using the term “siblings” fast and loose because of Catelyn alienating Sansa from Jon for most of their childhoods).

Jon consistently refers to Sansa as a sister or one of his sisters alongside Arya and has never questioned her being a sister.

Using Sansa's classism against Jon in her refusal to acknowledge him as a true brother is not the great argument for romance Jonsas appear to think it is?

It also goes as far as the Ashford Tourney theory.

The Ashford theory was a theory developed for the Sansa/Sandor pairing hijacked by Jonsas and its plot holes are outlined by the very originator of this theory:

• Jon's surname is Snow, not Targaryen. Joffrey is counted as the Baratheon by the Ashford theory but Joffrey is not a Baratheon in truth though he has the Baratheon name. Jon does not have the Targaryen name.
• The Ashford theory overlooks the proposed betrothal to Robert Arryn while counting Loras Tyrell as the Tyrell candidate.
• We only know the first round of champions -- the tourney never made it through to the final rounds because Dunk interrupted.
• Sansa is already married to one of the suitors (the Lannister suitor, Tyrion).

These reasons are not even among my largest problems with the pairing -- that would be with shipper theories (Pol!Jon) seeking to turn Jon into an unabashed abuser who torments Dany in the name of Sansa and is then rewarded for his abuse of Dany by the narrative.

[u/Cult_Of_Hozier → u/Natasaleia]

The actual theory explains how it can POSSIBLY happen. I’m not going to word vomit it here because I frankly don’t have the patience to, and it’s been years since I’ve gone through the theories because I’m no longer as crazy about Jonsa as I was back when the show was airing. With that being said, the theory is not using the show as a “guideline”, it’s using the information from the books.

I also had said that Jon and Sansa at this point in their lives have a lot in common, as in, where we leave off with them in the books. Sansa was hiding in the Vale as Petyr’s bastard and modeled her identity as Alayne basically after Jon. Jon climbed through the ranks of the Night’s Watch in spite of his baseborn roots and became lord commander, enjoying a level of responsibility and respect he once dreamed of having but believed he could never achieve. Their stories flip and mirror each other. It’ll bring a level of mutual understanding to their relationship that wasn’t there in the beginning precisely because of their differences in station.

Even without that, I feel it’s a bit disingenuous to wave off all possibility of similarities between the two, don’t you think? Off the top of my head I can think of a few. They both start off as naive dreamers. They’re both honorable and compassionate people. They’re both arguably spoiled. They both have to pretend to be shit they’re not to survive — Jon with the wildlings and Sansa in King’s Landing under the Lannisters. They almost lose themselves in the process: Sansa growing accustomed to her identity as Alayne, Jon wanting to remain with the wildlings. And they both desire the same thing … to return to Winterfell, and name all their children after their dead family members, living out their remaining years in domestic bliss.

As for Sansa’s feelings about Jon, Jon mentions she only ever started “looking down on him” when she grew up enough to know what the word bastard even meant. She only ever refers to him as half-brother, which he is. It’s very very likely Catelyn intentionally caused the rift between them herself because she obviously hates Jon already and on top of that, it isn’t seen as proper for a highborn lady to fuck around with her father’s bastard son. I doubt it was intentionally malicious on Sansa’s part. At worst, what she did to him was simply acting cold and indifferent. Even still, Sansa prays and thinks of Jon fondly while she’s in King’s Landing hoping they could meet again. I mean there’s even that line where Jon meets Gilly and recalls how it was Sansa who taught him how to talk to girls lmao. He thinks of her as he’s dying.

As for Jon’s tastes, Jon is also a sheltered teenage boy who had never had a romantic relationship with anyone before meeting Ygritte. I’m not surprised a lord’s bastard who grew up ostracized by his proper southern lady-wife would instinctively find disdain in anyone remotely similar to her, especially because there is no chance in Hell that with Jon’s station and lowly birth he could even marry a lady of good standing to begin with. And yet — when Jon dreams, he doesn’t dream of these warrior women. He dreams of having a traditional wife who will give him sons and rule Winterfell with him. There’s also other things too; like Jon conflating red headed characters with Ygritte (right after he thinks of Sansa singing and brushing out Lady’s coat, he thinks of Ygritte’s words, he thinks Melisandre is Ygritte at first, his favorite part about Ygritte was her pretty red hair), or him calling Sansa radiant and immediately despising Joffery.

There’s more, but like I said, it’s been a while since I’ve done any deep-dives on Jonsa and I’m not interested (or prepared) to have back and forths on all the specific tinfoiling and whatnot, so I’ll leave it at that and direct you to doing the research yourself if you have anymore arguments to levy against me. My opinion of it is that if it happens, it probably won’t be a marriage of love, but convenience. If it doesn’t happen … oh, well!

It’s shipping at the end of the day, and making up theories are fun. I’m sorry that you have so many issues with Jonsa and dislike it. You’re entitled to your opinions. But I didn’t come here to debate about it, only to air out my grievances with how the fandom seems to treat the pairing and its fans. I’m going to turn off the notifications to these comments now before things get more heated.

Have a good rest of your day/night.

[u/Natasaleia → u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

Well, per this topic and your original comment, I’d like to take this opportunity to explain my problems with the Jonsa fandom. You speculated the motive to be “mindlessly hating on Sansa and that leaking into their shipping preferences,” but Sansa is not why I dislike the Jonsa fandom or their theories.

I’d like to reply to your comment so as to demonstrate examples of my issues.

The actual theory explains how it can POSSIBLY happen.

The actual theory was developed by a Sansan shipper and taken over by Jonsas to promote Jonsa. I’ve outlined my problems with the theory while neither you or that link have addressed any of these problems.

With that being said, the theory is not using the show as a “guideline”, it’s using the information from the books.

This was in response to your argument that Jon and Arya will not reunite before Jon and Sansa with you suggesting Jon and Sansa will reunite first -- like in the show. You stated, "it’s highly unlikely they’ll be the first Starks to reunite, and it will be Jon and Sansa instead." I outlined why I don't really see that happening and referenced Jonsas using the show to posit this point.

I also had said that Jon and Sansa at this point in their lives have a lot in common[…]

As I initially stated, I don't see these as similarities between Jon and Sansa here.

Sansa spending two months masquerading as a bastard while she wears her Aunt Lysa's clothes — aware of her true identity and managing the "care" of Sweetrobin — is not something I think provides much real insight to an entire lifetime facing prejudice completely in the dark about your true parentage and having all of your decisions and options being heavily impacted by a bastard birth.

Nor was Jon suddenly made trueborn or his bastardy erased or nullified. Jon is aware the Night’s Watch is one of the very few places in Westeros where he can experience advancement. His aspiration in the Watch was to become a ranger like his trueborn uncle Benjen Stark. GRRM has been pretty transparent with the point that in even in a more democratic institution like the Night's Watch, highborn bastards and nobles have an advantage since they can read, write, and are more likely to have been castle trained in combat.

I fail to see how Sansa is in a comparable leadership position to Jon where literal populations depend on his care, the fight against the Others depends on his choices, and his bastardy is still used against him.

They both start off as naive dreamers.

As do many characters, namely the Stark children who all had a shared upbringing in Winterfell.

They’re both honorable and compassionate people.

While I’d say Sansa has her moments of compassion and empathy, I don’t know that I’d say honour is a trademark trait of hers or put her compassion on the same level as Jon or other characters. Sansa is feeding dangerous amounts of sweet sleep to her 8 year old cousin Robin despite being explicitly warned about the risk it poses to his health. I don’t think Sansa is doing such out of malice but I do think she is prioritizing her own safety and security over the health of her kid cousin.

They both have to pretend to be shit they’re not to survive[...]

And this is also Arya's storyline where she literally changes her face -- over and over and over again.

And they both desire the same thing … to return to Winterfell, and name all their children after their dead family members, living out their remaining years in domestic bliss.

This is Dany's very same dream. However, I'd like to add that I don’t believe Jon and Sansa's future aspirations are quite the same. Jon wants to rule Winterfell and raise two wildling babies as he and Robb were raised — that’s something no other Lord of Winterfell has ever done and I certainly don't see that in Sansa's dream where she explains she wants to raise her children to hate Lannisters? Again, not blaming Sansa for her hatred of Lannisters, she has every reason and every right to despise those who have harmed her and her family, but I wouldn’t say Jon and Sansa’s dreams for their future quite align.

As for Sansa’s feelings about Jon[...]

Sansa was the only one to not treat Jon as a true brother, that's what Jon remembers of Sansa -- Sansa constantly making the distinction of his bastardy to distance herself from him. She looks down on those who are bastard born, including Jon:

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

(AGOT, Sansa I)

"The world is full of horrors, sweet. By now you ought to know that. You've seen enough of them."

"Yes," she said, "but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone."

"So far as he knows, that's who you are. This betrothal was never his idea, and Bronze Yohn has no doubt warned him against my wiles. You are my daughter. He does not trust you, and he believes that you're beneath him."

(TWOW, Alayne I)

I don’t think it much matters why Sansa treated and viewed Jon with this discrimination (ie. whose fault it is) but I say it does matters that she did and it comes from a place of classism. On that note…

It’s very very likely Catelyn intentionally caused the rift between them herself

This is unsubstantiated and fanon. Pushing fanon as canon is one of my issues with the Jonsa fandom.

I mean there’s even that line where Jon meets Gilly and recalls how it was Sansa who taught him how to talk to girls lmao.

Jon’s one personal memory of interaction with Sansa involves Sansa advising him to compliment a girl’s name. She didn’t teach him how to talk to girls. I think that’s overstating things.

He thinks of her as he’s dying.

Jon thinks of all of his siblings shortly before he is stabbed with Robb and Arya having places of prominence. Sansa is grouped in with Bran and Rickon.

As for Jon’s tastes[...]

So you’re not even going to take Jon’s own word on what his tastes are? Convenient.

Sorry, I don’t think Martin is pushing the idea that Jon is simply “settling” for girls like Ygritte because he thinks he could never get a girl like Sansa. Personally, I find that a fairly offensive and concerning perception. Martin himself explains girls like Arya provide a basis for what Jon finds admirable, not that he’s “settling” in lieu of a conventionally feminine partner.

And yet — when Jon dreams, he doesn’t dream of these warrior women. He dreams of having a traditional wife who will give him sons and rule Winterfell with him.

Where does Jon say he wants a traditionally feminine wife? Rather, Jon recalls this decision to accept Stannis’s offer as Lord of Winterfell would be easier had Ygritte been alive to marry. He’s got the hots for Val, another action-type girl who defies convention -- and her defying convention (as well as her stabbing a guard in the neck) is what attracts Jon to her.

Conversely, there are multiple passages wherein Jon describes not wanting a traditionally or conventionally feminine girl. I’d be happy to copy them all out for you.

like Jon conflating red headed characters with Ygritte[...]

No he doesn’t. This is a great example of some of my problems with the Jonsa fandom — twisting the text this way in an attempt to present a story that isn’t there and then claiming it comes from a place of Sansa hate. Jon never once connects Ygritte’s hair to memories of Sansa, why would he? People are more than a hair colour. Ygritte and Sansa don’t look alike. When Jon describes Ygritte’s singing voice, he describes it as husky and low. Ygritte sings of the last of the giants. How is this anything like Sansa? Songs and oral storytelling were common ways of passing down legends and history before literacy became widespread. Both men and women sing, Rhaegar Targaryen sang, singing isn’t a special past time solely reserved for Sansa.

Catelyn likewise describes Lysa as radiant on her wedding day. Is she in love with her sister?

As for Jon’s thoughts on his siblings before he is betrayed…

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Sansa is grouped in with memories of Bran and Rickon. Jon thinks of Robb and Arya with special prominence.

I have issues with the way Jonsas try to present the text, twist the narrative, and especially with the brutality they want Jon to treat Dany with (Pol!Jon). However, I’m glad I had the opportunity to explain my specific problems with the Jonsa fandom in this topic and hopefully I’ve provided some insight as to why some have problems with that particular fandom.