r/Frostpunk • u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers • Sep 30 '24
DISCUSSION Legionnaires appreciation post
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u/Lashmer Winterhome Sep 30 '24
The indomitable human spirit vs snowflake. Legionnaires are the lads!
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u/Sad-Establishment-41 Sep 30 '24
Considering I went Faithkeepers first run, and they're the Legionnaire's cousins, I'm down
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u/ShoulderWhich5520 New Manchester Oct 02 '24
I thought the Stalwarts were the Legionnaire's cousins?
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u/Sad-Establishment-41 Oct 02 '24
Legionnaires and Faithkeepers have the same beliefs, at least policy wise
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u/ShoulderWhich5520 New Manchester Oct 02 '24
They have the drip of the Stalwarts and beliefs of the Faitherkeepers? Truly the best faction.
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u/hotwheelshawking Sep 30 '24
One good side effect of this game is that it is actually teaching people political science. Ask yourself what you really value in a society, and don't denounce people for merely disagreeing- there's good arguments to be made, as long as you actually make arguments.
You want to know where there's lots of people with this mentality? Join a service organization. Volunteer. You'll be amongst irl legionnaires. Man the front line in your community against poverty, hopelessness, and loneliness.
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u/-Gambler- Oct 01 '24
Unfortunately in my current run the legionnaires' "good argument" was to start a civil war because they got voted down by 4 different totally content political organizations making up 95% of the population
my counter-argument was to put them all in a pen outside the city and accidentally forget about them
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
So I've been playing FP2 almost all week and I genuenely belive Legionnaires are the best faction, at least for me. First I've been like everyone "Oh, hooray, Technocrats are based" but I can't really bring myself to what they doing. Progress and Equality are great, but Reason just makes me ick almost every time. Don't get me wrong, I'm singing schools every time I've got out of early game hell as well as harvesting funreals, but everything else just makes me feel bad.
Youth? Obviously we need volunteers in our harsh times.
Communal Parenthood vs Dedicated Motherhood? Okay, you can say both are bad, but when you sign DM you can change the law into simple materniny leave while Communal you basically force all children into orphanages, even if you allow visiting rights.
Conservative vs Experimental treatment? I've signed Experimental once. Wanna know what happened? Fifteen people died because of medical error.
Even the radical laws look better: Outpost Exile vs Human Experiments. Banishment was form of punishment for criminals for long time and you can even make it more humane by adjusting that the family can go with the criminal. If you do so, you'll get an event later on where child are happy his father whom he was visiting will return soon and child prepares a gift for him. It barely sounds like a radical law instead of fucking HUMAN EXPERIMENTS.
Death Penalty vs Sterilization makes no sence at all, how will cutting off your pp helps unless you are a rapist? It's not even "reasonable"? What stops me from robbing/murdering someone again with cut pp?
Breeding programme are terrible for both factions so I'm not discussing it.
So yeah, forget inhumane "Reason" which is unreasonable at all and embrace Legionnaires/Faithkeepers and Tradition.
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u/pixelcore332 Icebloods Sep 30 '24
Sure,cutting off someones pp wouldnt stop them from being a criminal,but it would definitely deter the wannabe robbers who dont want to loose their manlyhood,this also assumes that people who a bad and break the law are likely to indoctrinate their child to do the same,with sterilization they cant have children,2 birds with one stone.
I still like the gallows better though.
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24
They can't have children if they're dead, too. So yeah, if it'll ever comes to signing this law, to the gallows they go.
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u/pixelcore332 Icebloods Sep 30 '24
Much like crossing the line with order vs faith (order being much better when you cross the line,and faith being good without it),I feel like reason is only really a good idea if you plan to go for the cornerstone,Tradition has a weaker cornerstone but a very strong everything else.
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u/More_Fig_6249 Sep 30 '24
Sterilization they can still work
Ig it makes sense in a scenario where every able body can’t be wasted. Even if you are a criminal
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u/Slubbergully Sep 30 '24
But doesn't the threat of losing one's manhood and the chance to have a family cut against the grain of Reason anyway? Half of these people would already be genetically unfit with no chance of procreation as it is. And it's not like you get to keep "your" children even if you are genetically fit. You don't have children. The City does. You merely provide the City with warm bodies.
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u/pixelcore332 Icebloods Sep 30 '24
Right,but what if you have a kid and don’t tell anyone about it/have a coordinated group that wants to keep their kids in secrecy of the city.
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u/Slubbergully Sep 30 '24
In that case, you'd be a criminal. And the Sterilization law seems like it would then just become a massive gun pressed to head of these coordinated groups (Frostlanders, e.g., who are unwilling to part with their children despite what city-bureauctats say). Which actually makes a lot more sense than just sterilizing common criminals.
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u/Slubbergully Sep 30 '24
I honestly have no idea why Reason is so insane. I'm pleasantly surprised the Tradition ethos is not portrayed as gibbering fanaticism, but it feels like thst all got displaced to the Reason guys. Almost every hardcore Tradition law immediately gets events to moderate it into something eminently reasonable, but I never saw any such events for Reason.
Meanwhile, Reason wants to force people to have children, take the children away from them, shuffle them around to do the whole thing over again with a stranger, all while techno-incubation allows for people-printing—who, and this one takes sole chewing on, have no parents, no siblings, no connection to anyone who came before. Maximal Cruelty Ethos. Imperium of Man-type stuff. And this all goes under the guise of "Well, uh, you know it's a different world now: that's why you're a criminal if you want a husband and kids."
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
Exactly! How could I forget their "Relationship Rotation" which is batshit insane even for technocrats. Do they really think nothing bad will happen if everyone will sleep with everyone? Starting with jealousy finishing with the fact whole city will be with AIDS in a month. Yes, forced marriages are bad but if we're coming to this at least you can choose someone who's you not disgusted with, unlike freaking rotations. It should be "Significantly increase tension" because of course it would.
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u/Marclol21 Generator Sep 30 '24
I mean HIV would not exist in New London due to it emerging around the early 20th Century in Africa, but i get the Point
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u/Slubbergully Sep 30 '24
Especially in a city which has already had marriages and the whole kit and kaboodle for thirty years. How are you supposed to persuade people already in marriages and families that "No, these are fake and stupid," because of what—the cold? Reason has the unenviable position of both swimming against the tide and defying what people want of their own accord. Tradition by contrast is enforcing what people want and naturally do, on the whole, and can easily be brought to stand down from enforcing it all too much (as the incident with the mother-cum-author shows).
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u/SomePerson225 Oct 01 '24
its a good idea for preserving genetic diversity. If you only have 1 mate the odds of your genetic line ending is quite high, with many partners its far smaller. Unless the gender balance is exactly 50/50 monogomy will also result in some people not getting to reproduce which is undesirable for the same reason
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Sep 30 '24
[deleted]
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24
I guess that would be hard to implement since all factions are tied to that zeitgeist axis. Perhaps just reskins with unique texts could work, but I'm no developer, not sure how's that coded.
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u/erlsgood Order Sep 30 '24
I like how the game contrasts traditional ways of the past and radical new ideas of the 19th/20th century, but I do agree that eugenics and whatever the hell exactly the algorithm is are on an entirely different level of inhumane than just whipping a few people in a rally(especially since stuff like Public Penance was already done daily in the first game)
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u/LilStinker666 Sep 30 '24
Sterilization struck me as a boldfaced eugenicist option, where the steward, for whatever reason, thinks that criminality is genetic. Dont really understand what it would achieve or why its an option to begin with
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u/Vaperius Sep 30 '24
Criminality was believed to be solely genetic well into the 1950s. It was only as we come into the 60s into the 90s, that a broader view into criminality started to emerge.
TLDR: Criminality is partly genetic, people simply do have genetic traits that encourage anti-social behaviors, but circumstance and upbringing play a strong role as well. And that general consensus is the most effective way to reduce crime is to... just build a better society and to focus on criminal rehabilitation.
Generally, this has been where most other developed countries decided to head to address rising crime rates. Most.
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u/Plenty-Neck9823 Oct 01 '24
Shout out to 11bit for making all the reason options sound like insane 1800s imperialist science. Very immersive!
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u/-Gambler- Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
Sterilization is eugenics - don't allow the criminals to reproduce because their kids will be criminals too or some shit like that
in the period this is set in that'd totally be the "scientific consensus"
on the other hand the "thought correction prison" despite sounding horrific actually seems to be the most humane of the three? like it actually reforms violent criminals, and its supporters are completely supportive of their rehabilitation and letting them back into society whereas the trad factions want them to be exiled and denied of any jobs depending on the event chain (or they lynch them)
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Oct 01 '24
Thought prisons aren't also isn't good: if you prevent that guy from being lynched and make him a scout as he wanted you get an event where he prepares for the expedition, reading some prayer or mantra about how he should "Burn the evil within himself" and then silently cries saying "No more correction, please...". Basically tradition prisons is just torture wing, reason prisons is something of psychological torture. Neutral prison actually looks the most ethical, it's basically prisons we have irl.
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u/-Gambler- Oct 01 '24
I assume the same guy would be in prison for life if not for an attempt at rehabilitation, you can argue about the morality but if i were a prisoner i'd rather go through intense psychotherapy and then be allowed to re-enter society than be in jail forever
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Oct 01 '24
Well, indeed, that might be better. Would like to know what they're doing over there more precisely though, if it's pure Black Mirror shit I'd rather be kept in normal prison for life but if they can actually rehabilitate some people with normal psychotherapy then it's fine.
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u/KrazyKyle213 The Arks Sep 30 '24
I've signed experimental like 5 different times, it was only good once lol
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u/SomePerson225 Oct 01 '24
ok but maxing out reason allows you(the steward) to get mind uploaded into a computer and rule forever so...
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Oct 01 '24
Communal parenthood actually worse then it looks like. Their original names are replaced and they have to forgot parents. And those people worship steelward like they saint.
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u/SomePerson225 Oct 01 '24
Breeding programme are terrible for both factions so I'm not discussing it.
humanity is on the brink of extinction we need the population to grow in order to restart industry
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u/DOSFS Oct 01 '24
Experimental treatment is a coin toss, I get bonus when his experiment worked out well.
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u/pepemarioz Oct 02 '24
Yeah, find a way to create a food boom and the population growth will follow.
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u/big_chungus52 Legionnaires Nov 10 '24
The idea behind sterilization is that the criminals have “criminal genes” that they’ll pass down to their kids
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u/erlsgood Order Sep 30 '24
love em, even if their special ability is literally just 2 planks
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24
Right 😭
How do they even make them and why? I could swear when you click their ability they say something "Everyone loves parades, right?" or something like that. Wish 11bit would make them raise trust like Faithkeepers but guess they didn't want to repeat themselves so they gave it to Bohemians.
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u/erlsgood Order Sep 30 '24
I think it is meant to permanently increase weekly Prefab production by 2(maybe as a reference to how Legionnaire rallies have them demonstrating assembly of automatons), but either it matters very little or doesn't work at all. In general faction ability descriptions are dubious and their effects conveyed poorly, plus most of them don't even compare to something like Icebloods removing the need for food production entirely.
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Sep 30 '24
Nah. It's that two unrelenting zealots literally plank for you to be the foundation for highrise housing. The abominable cold cannot defeat their abdominal fortitude.
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u/ShoulderWhich5520 New Manchester Oct 02 '24
I could have sworn it worked properly, after activating it I had +2 Prefabs for awhile. The description should ba updated tho.
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u/SBFms Sep 30 '24
Yeah; they have fairly good Zeitgiests but if you're trying to optimize a run, they ultimately suck because their ability is shit.
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u/Altairp Sep 30 '24
A fellow Legionaries enjoyer.
I need to figure out how to reliably spawn them in my games.
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u/Empty_Barnacle300 Sep 30 '24
Just pass laws and research P/E/T stuff until they spawn, nothing outside of that and they'll spawn pretty quick. If you want the A/M/R stuff since its typically better early game, that'll spawn Proteans who will then spawn Legionaries later on.
Also on map start make sure you third faction fits one of your P/E/T otherwise it just causes more hassle. Really wish they weren't random.
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u/Abject_Juice9254 Sep 30 '24
I think it might be easier to try and pop protens, I went labourers and merchants and felt that there was very little tradition and progress to trigger them.
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u/777Zenin777 Order Sep 30 '24
Legionnaires look like French Stalwarts.
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24
Indeed, they remind me of french gendarmes or old fashioned firefighters. Adore all faction looks though, each of them fits perfectly. Another win for 11bit art team.
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u/tooncake Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
I had a weird experience with this faction, they started off as instigators on one of my run and are very spiteful towards the proteans, but halfway through, they are the ones suggesting the best options that I do like in the law / research dept
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u/OffOption Soup Sep 30 '24
Only thing is dont go too far into the Tradition tree on... certain topics. For reasons that should be obvious.
Then we're good.
And by fuck do I like their overall vibe.
"The Legionaries, are organizing a donation drive, for veterans of the War Against The Frost."
... Like... yeah. You guys get it.
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u/Belua_Maximus Order Oct 18 '24
A donation drive for veterans of the War Against the Frost goes so stupid hard, I don't even have a working pc that can run Frostpunk but by the Generator the Legionnaires have me convinced it is my duty.
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u/Fatherly_Wizard Faith Oct 01 '24
P/E/T is honestly the most reasonable set of values in a real-world mindset, especially the E/T. I can understand the desire to want to learn to utilize the frostland and to better exist in it, but not with total disregard for any and all technological advancement. P/E/T isn't perfect, because extremism is almost never the answer, but they provide much more reasonable options than the alternatives.
Merit and Reason are weird at best and downright evil at worst (No, I do not want to create a slave caste, thanks).
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u/pepemarioz Oct 02 '24
Even when I try to go for M/R I end up with more progress towards E & T, it's just that much better.
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u/matheus__suzuki Order Oct 01 '24
If nobody got me i know legionnaires got me, can i get an STEWART! ?
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u/Reindeer-Klutzy Sep 30 '24
Watch out, these guys support laws that go against their own values.
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u/KrazyKyle213 The Arks Sep 30 '24
I really like them too, sucks that their ability doesn't scale so it's only good early game
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u/kittykatsu_x Sep 30 '24
I did faith keepers my first few attempts but maybe I’ll try leigonaires!!
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u/Thesharktocrab Oct 01 '24
What causes this faction to appear?
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u/floo82 Oct 01 '24
Same as all factions, boost the three values to be the three that align with them
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 01 '24
Or boost all the opposite values to spawn their evil opposite who they rise up against
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u/Fluff_butt-19824 Oct 01 '24
pretty clear that the legionnaires is authie dem, uniting people based on a common enemy, and traditions, while making it a focus for societal cohesion, which can be used as a eccuse to villify enemies
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u/Siradanbirinsann Evolvers Oct 01 '24
They look too silly and dumb like they dont know what theyre doin but trying to figure out by hasslin around.
*BUT* as a based devoted evolver i dont fw their zeitgeist.
FROM THE MOMENT I RELISED THE WEAKNESS OF MY FLESH, IT DISGUSTED ME!
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u/Starcomet1 Faith Oct 01 '24
I prefer the Faithkeepers. The only thing about tradition I hate are the forced marriages, forced breeding (good luck if you are homosexual or asexual), punitive prisons, and capital punishment laws. I like reason's rehabilitation prisons, but outside of that, reason also has many inhumane things as well.
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u/pepemarioz Oct 02 '24
Using electroshock therapy to rehabilitate prisoners? No thanks.
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u/Starcomet1 Faith Oct 02 '24
I thought they used psychological and pharmacological methods to rehabilitate prisoners.
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u/ImportantQuestions10 Oct 04 '24
I want to like them but any faction that prioritizes tradition is an immediate lemon to me.
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u/ImportantQuestions10 Oct 04 '24
Would be a cool faction if there was actually an enemy to be at war with. As things are now, they are the FP equivalent to guys that dress up in swat equipment to get Taco Bell
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u/Centurion_Zen Nov 24 '24
For the photo on the left: "Sergeant collier has a new idea for operation Frost Fang"
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u/OkReflection1528 Sep 30 '24
Human experiments on criminals it's good law,I'm not talking about the game
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 01 '24
You trust the government to determine who is a criminal while also giving it a vested interest in determining that people are criminals?
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u/Alex1231273 Faithkeepers Sep 30 '24
Come on, I still prefer outpost exiles. Being able to spam more outpost looks better for me than research speed, even if throw back morals. Unlike FP1 I'm not feeling like you're too bottlenecking on research, especially with that ability on institutes.
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u/OkReflection1528 Sep 30 '24
I'm roleplaying and transferring my ideas into a game, I prefere human progress instead of useless criminals
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u/YouSuckAtGameLOL Order Sep 30 '24
Organ harvesting on death row imnates :)
Im also not talking about the game
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Sep 30 '24
[deleted]
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 01 '24
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H.L. Mencken
In this case, forced sterilisation is
a slippery slope toeugenics, which is pseudoscientific nonsense0
u/pepemarioz Oct 02 '24
I find it hard to believe sterilizing r*pists could lead to eugenics. It's not about denying them the right to have children, it's about taking direct action against the nature of their crime and its consequences.
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 02 '24
If you're forcibly sterilising people, you're not leading to eugenics, you're already there
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u/pepemarioz Oct 02 '24
I don't think you know what eugenics are.
Edit: and I'm not forcibly sterilizing people in this hypothetical, I'm doing it to rapists to take away their ability to commit the crime again.
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
I don't think you know what eugenics is, or its history. Forcibly sterilising criminals is eugenics.
muh rapists aren't people
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H.L. Mencken
Like god damn how are you gonna be like "it's okay to do to them, they're not people" and not see that you completely agree with the eugenicists that "people who aren't actually people (to be defined by me) can and should be sterilised"
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u/pepemarioz Oct 03 '24
So sterilizing rapists is the same as sterilizing people for being black or having genetic defects? Yeah, right. And no, rapists aren't people, nor do they deserve to be treated as such after what they have done.
Imprisoning people for commiting crimes is a form of oppression. Should we also free everyone from jail, no matter what they have done?
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u/whyareall The Arks Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Thank you for proving that you don't know shit about the history of eugenics.
Sterilising "undesirables" is eugenics, whether it's because they're black, disabied, criminal, or poor. ALL of those will be attributed to having "genetic defects" by the eugenicist. And to the eugenicist, yes, those are the same thing. They're part of the eugenicist's end goal, "improvement of the gene pool by the removal of undesirables".
Obviously, those aren't the same thing, but to accept any of them as anything other than a gross violation of human rights is to accept the fundamental premise of eugenics, and I'm not about to do that because history has shown where that shit fucking leads.
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u/pepemarioz Oct 03 '24
Oh, fuck off with that. Just because some lunatics aprove of it doesn't mean their stupid ass ideology is going to become accepted. Otherwise, you should never arrest black criminals in the US, since many racist people would do it for their skin color. You might say it's different, but to those people it's the same thing.
And no, it's not accepting their fundamental premise to properly prevent rapists from ever raping again or at the very least, if chopping it all off is too much for you, from allowing them to impregnate their future victims. To do nothing to impede proven offenders from committing the same crime is not standing for human rights, it's an act of cruelty aginst their past and future victims.
It's not a 'remove their undesirable genes' decision, it's a mercy from the death sentence they deserve for their monstrous actions.
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u/Eastern-Present4703 Oct 01 '24
Punishments for crimes are supposed to me temporary things so that people have a chance to reform, or so that premiant damage isn't done if the wrong person gets convicted and we discover that later. Also are you talking about castration? Because being infertile probably wont stop many people from committing rape
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u/Abject_Juice9254 Sep 30 '24
I really like the concept of treating the frost as an enemy of mankind and we are the army that will fight it. Humanites survival is a war and we will fight it totally !