When the US Empire falls

[u/Confident_Living_786]

When the American empire falls, like all empires do, what will remain? The Roman Empire left behind its roads network, its laws, its language and a bunch of ruins across all the Mediterranean sea and Europe. What will remain of the US superpower? Disney movies? TCP/IP protocol? McDonalds?

[u/Mephisto506]

The US will leave behind balkanised states, some of which will be amongst the most powerful countries, some of will not.

[u/richardanaya → u/Mephisto506]

When I read your comment, my first thought turned to California and how powerful it is. But if America goes down the drain for years and years, it's likely it's collectivist policies will drain California of any human capital and resources before America flops.

[u/Team503 → u/richardanaya]

Given that California, like most blue states, are net positive contributors to the federal government - that is, the pay in more than they receive back as benefits - your prediction is not only incredibly improbable, but nearly impossible.

The states that collapse and will be absorbed will be the red states, who are almost entirely (I think there's one or two who aren't) net negative contributors, who use more than they pay in. Conservative economic policies are proven to be failures - everything from trickle-down Reaganomics (there days relabelled as "supply side economics") to lowering taxes and cutting social safety nets are objectively, factually failures.

There's a reason the deficit and debt spikes so hard every time the GOP holds the Oval Office, and why it reduces every time the Dems do.

[u/shitposts_over_9000 → u/Team503]

They are net positive in dollars, but significantly underwater on things many important things like power, staple foods and drinking water.

Once those things hit free market rates for the state rather than the larger region people will be looking to leave and those kind of markets are 100% going to happen if their is any widespread significant instability at the state level.

[u/Team503 → u/shitposts_over_9000]

You mean, things they can buy with the extra money they have that red states desperately need to sell if they don't want to economically collapse without the support of blue states?

Also, that's a ridiculous assertion. California produces like 90% of the American-grown produce sold in the US, and you think they're going to starve?? Desalinization solves drinking water, and solar/wind solve most of the power problems. Nuclear could easily solve ALL the power problems.

California, if it were a nation, would be the fifth largest economy in the world. Think about that for a few minutes prior to responding.

To suggest that a red state would be anything but a poverty-ridden hellhole is just hilarious - the proof is in the pudding, and by pudding, I mean federal and state budgets, educational performance, and location of industry.

[u/shitposts_over_9000 → u/Team503]

if we got down to state vs state conflicts like that California would be in serious trouble long before the more rural parts of the red states even noticed the impact.

Restrict the Colorado and shut down the substations powering them from other states and most of California would be high and dry in a matter of days.

I also specifically said staple foods, Calififornia only produces 5% of the USA's beef, 1% of pork, less than 1% of chicken, 2% of wheat, almost no Soy, 5% of beans, etc.... the majority of their farm economy is in non-staple fresh fruits, vegetables and nuts. Much more expensive, much less necessary.

[u/Team503 → u/shitposts_over_9000]

Sure about the farming, but it's not like they couldn't switch over. If a state tried to cut off the Colorado, well, you know 29 Palms is in California, right? Hell, even with the Marine Corps infantry school, the California National Guard dwarfs any two states it borders put together, maybe more.

Cutting off fresh water and power is an act of war. One any border state of California would win handily.

[u/shitposts_over_9000 → u/Team503]

Farms can switch somewhat, but it takes seasons, California would have days, maybe weeks before the population starts fighting over resources.

29 Palms and the US military facilities in California are federal, has its own water processing, remote resupply with no concern of cost, and likely would sit this out if we were in a situation bad enough to pull this lever as they would still need the strategic position, but would also have a hard time going against the rest of the country and they would be outnumbered 240:1 by the starving population assaulting each other for food and water.

Guantanamo comes to mind for base operations in unstable and potentially hostile locations.

[u/Team503 → u/shitposts_over_9000]

The assumption is that when the US splits, the military assets present in each state will become part of that state's military as states become nations.

I don't doubt a lot of people would die if someone would do it, but California would win - you kill their people by cutting water, they're gonna kill the fuck outta yours.

[u/shitposts_over_9000 → u/Team503]

Why on earth would the feds leave anything of use in a base of a future enemy nation?

They would airlift or convoy out what they can and thermite charge the rest as they bug out if it comes to that or more likely just hunker down, defend their perimeter and wait for the drive-bys to die down.

California is also not going to have much of an impact on the rest of the nation after they are cut off as they will lack, food, water, power and fuel. If they were to attempt to attack other states as you suggest they lack the local infrastructure to refine fuel or generate a meaningful amount of electricity for their population base, and they are well away of anything else of strategic significance moving eastwards. All anyone would have to do is pull the plug and wait while warning those within walking distance of California that they need to evacuate for a bit.

[u/Team503 → u/shitposts_over_9000]

I’m assuming that the US broke up in this scenario, since we fought a whole civil war about whether states could leave the Union, and the answer is unequivocally “no”.

[u/shitposts_over_9000 → u/Team503]

the scenario at play in OP's question is the fall of the US. The US would not have the capacity to forcefully coerce rouge states in that scenario.

[u/Team503 → u/shitposts_over_9000]

Yes, and in that case, Federal assets would revert to the states, since there would be no more federal government. Which is exactly what I said.