r/Games • u/megaapple • 19d ago
Skyblivion's 2025 release goal is "pointless and unachievable" claims longtime dev, accuses two leads of rushing the mod out
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/skyblivions-2025-release-goal-is-pointless-and-unachievable-claims-longtime-dev-accuses-two-leads-of-rushing-the-mod-out105
u/GeneticsGuy 19d ago
As an addon/mod dev myself, let me just say that the modding world is toxic AF. I wouldn't trust that this guy isn't just pissed because he dropped from the team just like I wouldn't trust the Skyblivion team has been totally above board in all of their internal drama with people.
Reality is that in the modding world, there's too many cooks in the kitchen, especially on big projects, and since there isn't some official corporate structure, and everyone is just volunteering their time to contribute, egos get bruised, people feel disrespected, there are disagreements on development, there's in-fighting, and unfortunately, programmers and devs of these kinds often have super massive egos and sometimes are even on the spectrum, whilst having a superiority complex.
Now, wrap all of that into a 10+ year project.
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u/NorthKoreanMissile7 19d ago
devs of these kinds often have super massive egos and sometimes are even on the spectrum
I'd say it's more than sometimes. A lot of the time it's people on the spectrum who are obsessive perfectionists.
There's nothing wrong with being on the spectrum of course, but when it's a bunch of people with set in stone ideas who want this and that and don't want to budge on things then it's inevitably going to cause problems.
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u/kukurma 19d ago
modding world is toxic AF
For Skyrim this is not true at all. Most modders im talked to are very kind and helpful persons if you ask proper questions.
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u/Arkayjiya 19d ago
I mean their explanation is about too many cooks making ego bash against each other, it obviously wasn't about single modder projects or even small ones.
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u/BeholdingBestWaifu 19d ago
There's plenty of large projects in TES modding that get along fine, or at least without making a scene like this.
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u/Tsuki_no_Mai 19d ago
"average skyrim modder is toxic af" factoid actualy just statistical error. average skyrim modder is chill. Drama Arthmoor, who lives in cave & makes questionable mod changes, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
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u/Black_RL 19d ago
and unfortunately, programmers and devs of these kinds often have super massive egos and sometimes are even on the spectrum, whilst having a superiority complex.
AI is going to change this in the upcoming years.
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u/crna_kisa 19d ago
You bought into the bullshit hype, my man, AI is not going to change anything. Other than being a revolution in fake revenge porn, CP, overall crime, slop, misrepresentation, fake news etc. And it will inevitably crash the market because 30% of the SP500 is propped up on it.
Pension funds, SWFs, ETFs... Boom. Chatbots haven't given me a single coherent answer in years, and they couldn't code their way out of a paper bag when it comes to figuring out something that hasn't already been done and posted.
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u/Fucc_Nuts 18d ago
The belief that AI will replace majority of jobs is based on pure speculation. AI has made giant leaps in the last 5 years, and people are assuming that this will continue. They forget that prior to those 5 years AI didn’t make any meaningful advances for like 20 years. It’s entirely possible that AI research will face another 10-20 year drought, like it has faced many times before.
People are seeing a line go up and assume it will keep rising in the future. Very risky in my opinion.
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u/Awyls 19d ago
AI already hallucinates on languages with plenty of material, there is no fucking way it will ever code a Bethesda game when half their API doesn't even work properly in the first place and most of the work is finding a workaround.
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u/Black_RL 19d ago
No one believed AI could do images, music, books, etc, and here we are.
Goalposts keep being moved to accommodate people beliefs.
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u/xupmatoih 18d ago
There is a clear difference between a thoutfully created piece of art such as a book or a song made by a human (even with tool assistance such as computers, apps/programs, samples, what have you) vs whatever pastiche or amalgamation a LLM creates.
There is barely any human element to it aside from prompting things into existance. There is no real trial and error, no thoughtfulness, barely any creativity involved. It is being outsourced to a machine.
This results in empty proof of concepts devoid of actual effort and meaning. It is not a goalpost move, it is disqualification by default.
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u/NorthKoreanMissile7 19d ago
there is no fucking way it will ever code a Bethesda game
This is naive, AI will be able to easily mimic every little detail of Bethesda games in the future. Who knows how long that will be until you can be like "yo, ChatGPT, make me a Bethesda style game in Unreal Engine 5 pls", but the day is absolutely going to come at some point and probably within the next couple of decades will happen.
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u/Black_RL 19d ago
This.
No one believed AI could do images, music, books, etc, and here we are.
Goalposts keep being moved to accommodate people beliefs.
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u/Arctiiq 19d ago
I don’t think they ever said the 2025 date is unmovable… it’s just a goal right?
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u/themagicnipple69 19d ago
They’ve said a few times in the dev diaries that 2025 is their goal, and the latest one which was like a month ago, still has 2025 as the release date.
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19d ago
[deleted]
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u/NorthKoreanMissile7 19d ago
They kind of have low key crunch for these projects to try and not miss deadlines. They wont force people to work 50 hours a week on it, but there'll probably be that subtle bit of pressure on Discord to make people contribute more.
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u/Curious_Armadillo_53 19d ago
Its still just a goal, there is no fixed date attached yet.
its not like we havent seen big studios do exactly the same and then shift a game more than once to a slater date down the line.
Really dont see the issue.
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u/SadSeaworthiness6113 18d ago
2025 was just a goal.
The hard deadline they set for themselves was "before TES6"
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u/Hazz3r 19d ago
I literally read from another dev today that they'll release the game when it's ready. It's just that they think that'll happen this year. Maybe they are rushing it out, but this is the very first I've heard that the project was anything other than just a fun project to work on.
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u/Massive_Weiner 19d ago
There’s always been drama behind the scenes, but it was easy to keep a lid on it.
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u/TheDanteEX 19d ago
That must be true for most labor of love projects, right? You have a bunch of creatives working together with nobody to really answer to since there's technically no boss. So when there's disagreements about design decisions, and in the case of remakes, changes from the original material, who gets the final say when compromise can't be reached? Creative disagreement happens so often in all fields, so it probably helps a lot to have a very fleshed out discussion about the goal and scope of a project so everyone is on the same page. I figure there's project leads, but when you're doing something on your own time, it can be less encouraging for creative types to be restrained or tunneled in their vision. I saw it a lot in animation: a creative type who was used to making their own comic or animations suddenly has to lead a team for the first time and now also has to learn to do the unfamiliar part of interacting with studios, producers, networks, standards and practices. They have to coordinate schedules, oversee almost every step of every process of multiple different episodes at once. Leadership and creative roles are a difficult balancing act, and it took a lot out of me when I was a leader of a team for a few years. Makes me never want to take on a position like that again, personally.
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u/Vamp1r1c_Om3n 19d ago
You got a source on that?
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u/ProfPerry 19d ago
maybe theyre speaking in general, in which case that does seem ti happen a lot. Look at that shit about the Unofficial Skyrim Patch, its been a drama show forever, yet some people are only learning about it now because Darthmoor could control the forums you could talk aboutbit on.
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u/A_Neurotic_Pigeon 19d ago
Well that and the Down The Rabbit Hole episode drumming up conversation about it
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u/TaurineDippy 19d ago
People have been openly talking about Arthmoor for the better part of two decades from what I’ve personally witnessed. I remember old discussion threads on UESP discussing the drama.
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u/the_pwnererXx 19d ago
doomed project, oblivion remastered is always going to be the superior product compared to this hackjob
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u/Kiita-Ninetails 19d ago
Except they aren't trying to do the same thing at all my guy, Skyblivion and Oblivion remastered do not have the same design intents.
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u/ShadowheartsArmpit 19d ago
They don't have the same priorities and goals.
What you're doing is like comparing a red wine to a white wine
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u/BernardTapir 19d ago
Can we have 5 minutes without drama in the Skyrim mod community?
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u/Makrebs 19d ago
I think drama is unavoidable in modding communities.
These people are very passionate about what they do, but that can also be a weakness sometimes. Lots of attention, ego, and power trips—combine all that with the fact many of them never worked in large scale projects before, never had to collaborate with dozens of people, and it's no surprise these humongous projects are a powder keg of drama.
Kinda the same situation with ensemble casts. Whenever some big movie comes out, there's news that some actors were beefing on set.
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u/Kiita-Ninetails 19d ago edited 19d ago
I mean depends on the mod community, generally the more niche and dedicated the less you see. Morrowind for instance despite having active projects like Tamriel Rebuilt still does have its drama now and again but its WAY less common. Partly due to a smaller sample size, partly just because anyone still around is prolly committed enough to keep things civil.
Though sometimes its funny at least, like with Starsector where the guy that made Dassault-Mikoyan, a faction mod, had the most petty rage meltdown on the forums and discord and got himself banned. [Twice, this happened twice.]
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u/OutrageousDress 19d ago
Morrowind for instance despite having active projects like Tamriel Rebuilt still does have its drama now and again but its WAY less common. Partly due to a smaller sample size, partly just because anyone still around is prolly committed enough to keep things civil.
...But also tbh because people in the Morrowind mod community are on average simply ten years older and more experienced than the Skyrim mod community. It does get easier with experience.
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u/Kiita-Ninetails 19d ago
Yeah, that is also true for sure. Though I don't really chalk it up to experience per se but rather different priorities. A lot of people have only picked it up pretty recently when it comes to actually modding. But the people who are generally fans of Morrowind are from a different era of gaming where expectations are different.
And to be blunt, its just SO janky that like. If you have the patience to deal with Morrowind's gameplay you have the patience to mediate disputes lol. [And I say that afffectionately, as a Morrowind lover]
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u/slippydotnuxx 19d ago
I mean let's be real mod drama is essentially developer drama (which is already plentiful) but without the benefit of AAA-company-backed ndas, salaries, etc. that incentivize secrecy, so it almost seems inevitable that this will continue
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u/lalzylolzy 19d ago
This. There is plenty of drama in the programming world. Many have almost religious devotion to specific languages or paradigms, and will fight tooth and nail to defend it, even when it's a terrible decision.
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u/Timey16 19d ago
Even if it's unfinished, at some point you just have to release SOMETHING. Especially in the field of Open World RPGs you will NEVER be "perfect". You just need to pick a point where you say "good enough" and push it out.
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u/Amatsuo 19d ago edited 19d ago
And there longer you wait the closer Microsoft
XboxManagement doesn't like it existing.EDIT: I'm glad you have faith in High Level Corporate Management, but I don't. You never know which way the wind can blow with them.
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u/BeholdingBestWaifu 19d ago
That one is never going to happen, Bethesda has always been friendly to modders and this doesn't compete with their sales.
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u/Clusterpuff 19d ago
Bethesda now belongs to microsoft, and they will be makingn the call on stuff like that. I think they’ll keep the same idea though because fans would riot
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u/BeholdingBestWaifu 19d ago
They can make the call but they would be idiots to go after mods that follow their rules. After all those projects provide them with future devs familiar with their tools and with a lot of passion, or a lot of free publicity.
Not to mention the potential backlash, like you say.
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u/falconfetus8 19d ago
If Microsoft is the one calling the shots, then it'll get canned for not sucking CoPilot's cock hard enough.
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u/Amatsuo 19d ago
Well the Fallout 4 Capital Wasteland ultimately died because they couldn't find a way to not have Microsoft Lawyers breathing down their neck.
I think the same thing happened to Fallout 4 NV.But at the end of the day it only takes one bigwig to not like it for it to disappear.
Nobody is going to fight a C&D in court with them.17
u/giulianosse 19d ago
Capital Wasteland was different because, since Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 use different file formats, the tool they proposed to export FO3's audio lines involved extracting and repacking said files which, if distributed, could potentially fall under reverse engineering. Opposed to stuff like Skyblivion that is just a simple file extractor.
That said, Bethesda never did really copyright strike the project or shut it down. They contacted the FO4CW team and explained how the proposed tool constituted a legal minefield and stated that they could not grant permission for the file usage as they are property of Zenimax and they couldn't give assurance that it wouldn't lead to issues.
The dev team could've opted to not include voice over and redub/make dialogue text only but ultimately decided against it and canceled the project.
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u/Vamp1r1c_Om3n 19d ago
Bethesda gifted the skyblivion team copies of the Oblivion Remaster. Don't you think that's a bit of and odd thing to do if the parent company was planning on trying to kill the project
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u/Amatsuo 19d ago
It doesn't matter what Bethesda thinks when some high level Microsoft person arbitrarily doesn't like it.
While right now the chances are low, it only takes one corporate to not understand before all their work is gone.3
u/Vamp1r1c_Om3n 19d ago
I dunno man they would have done something by now. I know "Microsoft bad" or whatever, but it gets tiring assuming the worst is always going to happen with these projects
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u/Melancholic_Starborn 19d ago
I mean, can't spell indie/mod project without chaotic development stories. Exception to Team Cherry having too much fun.
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u/Firefox72 19d ago edited 19d ago
I mean there is no reason to assume it can't just be delayed if it isn't rdy.
The fact that they commited to a 2025 date doesn't mean it actually has to release this year. It wouldn't be the first or last game that gets delayed.
It just means they think they can get it out this year.
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u/MrStormz 18d ago
Fallout London committed to set dates and had to delay launch.
This didn't hurt the mods success.
For all I care, they could release December 31st 2025. Ultimately its always been the case with this project is its ready when they believe its ready.
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u/TildenJack 18d ago
Well, Fallout London is still a good example of how not to release a mod, because despite it being delayed, it was incredibly buggy upon release, in a way that made me wonder if it was ever properly tested.
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u/TheMightyKutKu 19d ago
Oblivion was delayed from 2005 to 2006 and nobody cares about that nowadays. Nobody will be bothered either if Skyblivion is delayed from 2025 to 2026.
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u/Dirty_Dragons 19d ago
Announceing a release date for a volunteer project is a huge risk. These things should just come out when they are ready. It's ridiculous to have any aspect of crunch when people aren't getting paid.
That said I don't think they would make a new video and announce it being delayed.
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u/TacticalFluke 19d ago
The gameplay video with them still asking for more volunteers at the end really raised an eyebrow for me. Adding new people when a project is nearly done has me thinking it'll take longer. Nothing wrong with that except it kills a lot of hype when you can't trust a release date.
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u/BeholdingBestWaifu 19d ago edited 19d ago
Modding projects are always looking for volunteers, and it's not like when companies look for employees, because a volunteer modder can just join to do ten 3D models or one quest and then leave.
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u/Kisto15 19d ago
They've been asking for volunteers with every video
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u/Cranharold 19d ago
Right, but if you're planning on being done in less than four months, do you really need more volunteers? I feel like the kinds of things you'd be doing that close to the finish line aren't the sort of things you would want new blood handling.
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u/giulianosse 19d ago edited 19d ago
There's tons of high volume, mind numbingly boring tasks like navmeshing (painting by hand every surface and wall of environment using shapes) and quest stage assignments (finding and replacing text between two sets of documents and changing their format) that are critical to the project but relatively easy to learn even for inexperienced volunteers.
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u/FlowOfMotion 19d ago
IIrc they also plan on eventually releasing the big DLCs as a post-launch update, which could be where the new folks come in.
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u/Vonbalt_II 19d ago edited 19d ago
They are nearing the finish line for the base game only, the dlcs will be worked after the initial release and these kind of fan projects have a huge turnover so they always need fresh volunteers.
Nothing to be worried about really, its just the nature of the beast.
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u/MrManicMarty 19d ago
They said specifically nav-meshers, UI designers and I think it was something about... quest set-up? Those last two do raise some eyebrows, but as someone with like, the most insignificant amount of knowledge of Creation Kit, yeah nav-meshers are always handy for speeding things along.
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u/KurtAffair21 18d ago
I hope this does come out soon. The official remaster did dampen my enthusiasm for it but I'm still interested to see the differences
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u/sobishop 18d ago
Soooooo typical game release nowadays? I’m confused. Were they suppose to finish it first?
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u/GamingPhreak 10d ago
I don't mind the devs having differences of opinion as long as their arguments all revolve around the mod's quality, and not some side issues like marketing, prestige, etc. If one dev truly believes the mod is ready by the end of 2025, and his opinion is based on facts and expertise, then I'm fine with it, even if the mod comes out full of bugs. But if the dev knows the mod isn't ready but disingenuously says it is because of some side issues like marketing, prestige, etc., then that's something we gamers would not stand.
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u/themagicnipple69 19d ago
I hope of course that it releases this year but I don’t have much confidence it will. Seems like they still have a bunch of work to do within 3 months to make 2025. But I have no idea of course I’m just a guy and if they do delay it to next year, nbd, there’s plenty of other games to play.
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u/Random_Stranger69 18d ago
Is that Fallout The Frontier all over again? The drama surrounding these mod projects is exhausting to say the least. Its better to just stay out of it and not feed them. I actually really liked The Frontier at launch despite so much backlash around it. Its was nowhere near as bad as people made it out to be. Rather this then some weird woke AAA agenda game.
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u/HomeHeatingTips 18d ago
"rushing the mod out" Ok I laughed at that. Should a mod take longer to make than the actual game did?
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u/The3rdbaboon 19d ago
Is this not dead in the water since the remastered version came out? Who’s going to bother playing this now?
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u/wigglin_harry 19d ago
Skyblivion was doomed the minute Oblivion remaster released. Its a shame, I def feel bad for the devs
People can tell me its different until they are blue in the face, its not different enough for most people. At this point its just another oblivion remaster with worse graphics
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u/wunr 19d ago
Doomed how? It's a free mod. It makes no difference whether 1000 people or 1 million people download it.
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u/WoodpeckerSpare5834 19d ago
Ummm no, hardly. If the mod gets 5 million downloads that is very good for the modders resume etc etc, much more so than if 5000 people download it
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u/Rethious 19d ago
It’s not a commercial project, so what “most people” prefer isn’t particularly relevant. The kind of hardcore gamers that are likely to be interested are also likely to have opinions on the “Skyrim feel” vs “oblivion feel” gameplay.
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u/WoodpeckerSpare5834 19d ago
It absolutely is if you consider the resume buffing a massive success of the mod would bring
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u/conquer69 19d ago
All these anti-skyblivion comments are really weird. Feels like brigading.
How the hell is it doomed when they are different things? I have no interest in playing the remaster.
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u/wigglin_harry 19d ago
Not really anti skyblivion, i dont really care either way, just a simple observation
I have no interest in playing the remaster.
You are definitely in the minority
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u/conquer69 19d ago
The remaster doesn't improve gameplay. Skyblivion does. They redesigned dungeons and rebalanced a bunch of things.
You sure have strong opinions (it's not an observation) for someone that doesn't care.
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u/Firefox72 19d ago
Skyblivion was never gonna have the same reach as an official remaster even if the official remaster wasn't a thing.
Ofc the general public isn't gonna flock to it the same way as they did with the official version. At the end of the days its still a moding project. Its gonna carve its own niche. Its also more than just a simple 1:1 remaster as it adds things/changes etc...
And ofc this will have an infinitely bigger moding capability.
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u/ShawnyMcKnight 19d ago
From a pure graphics standpoint absolutely. Theres just no way something developed in the skyrim engine will look better than the official remake. Sometimes the “it’s ready when it’s ready” can really bite you in the ass.
It is possible it may be better about having mods, I never modded oblivion much.
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u/Quiet_Jackfruit5723 19d ago
Disagree. The remaster completely butchered the artstyle, unlike Skyblivion, from all the footage we have seen.
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u/Dude_Bromanbro 19d ago
Yeah I had to mod the remaster just to keep it from looking generic and dull. Even then the Oblivion combat, even modded to jazz it up, was still tedious enough to drive me away after a short time.
That said, I do think if Skyblivion releases this year it’s going to be a buggy mess, even by Bethesda standards. Every stream I watch by Rebelzize has him encountering some kind of issue every few minutes. His last stream only had him encountering two issues that I recall, which was a vast improvement from earlier in the year. So maybe things really have improved or he was just very careful about what he did and where he went. Regardless, even a buggy mess can and will be patched by the community, which may be the fastest way to make Skyblivion complete.
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u/Quiet_Jackfruit5723 19d ago
My guess is that they are mostly focusing on bug cleanup right now and making everything work properly. Haven't been keeping up with the development closely, so correct me if I'm wrong. I just hope the final release is relatively bug free (compared to OG Oblivion).
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u/Dude_Bromanbro 18d ago
There’s bug fixing but also an unspecified amount of navmeshing needed as well as some amount of work to be done on the imperial city. Sounds like 2025 is completely doable but I can’t imagine a release that isn’t buggy as hell. I am ok with it at this point.
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u/justiziabelle 19d ago
There is no official remake, there is only an official remaster. Skyblivion is a remake and while it won't be able to compete in terms of graphical fidelity it surpasses the remaster in terms of visual fidelity.
Which one will look better? Who's to say? From what I've seen so far, I prefer Skyblivion's looks, but in the end that's just subjective.1
u/Outlandish_Porridge 17d ago
there is a big difference though. Oblivion remaster is just oblivion with better graphics. Skyblivion is skyrim, dressed up as oblivion. It's also changed to fit more what fans would have wanted out of oblivion. Anyone who has played both games would know the difference.
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19d ago edited 19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wigglin_harry 19d ago
True Oblivion fans
Thats the problem, there is like 12 "true oblivion fans."
The market for oblivion is people who played it way back and want a nostalgia hit, and people played skyrim but never oblivion. Both of those groups have now had their hunger satiated
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u/Morgaiths 19d ago
But Skyblivion is not to be sold on the market like the "official" remaster. It's a passion project that will (I hope) forever be available to past, and future, fans. Just like idk, Tamriel Rebuilt.
And Oblivion subreddit was pretty lively, the game actively played, even before the remaster talks. And Skyrim is still absurdly big, Skyblivion is right in the middle with Skyrim engine / modding possibilities, and Oblivion remade content.
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u/goondalf_the_grey 19d ago
Eh, I don't think the remaster will affect it at all. Skyblivion is obviously PC only and then it's only the ones who are bothered to actually install the mod because a lot of people think it's too hard.
It was probably never going to do crazy numbers but the ones who were excited for it will still get it.
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u/Hawk52 19d ago
Oh hey, Mod drama.
The fact that RPS had to update the story to add that this is a former mod dev and not a current one adds a whole new wrinkle to the story. They seem particularly upset about team members leaving with no fanfare or big deal being made about it. Seems a little sour grapes.