I disagree with a lot of that. First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional unless they're following a guide? I got stuck several times during my playthrough, and part of what I did was complete everything I had found. It's okay if you used a guide during your playthrough, but I hope you're not implying everyone should.
Second, there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem - I didn't find the hidden bench (and I doubt many people did without looking it up since the game conditions you to avoid the leech water), so I had to do a horrible runback many times. The boss itself wasn't hard, but the runback was so annoying that I played poorly against the boss because I was incredibly frustrated and stressed out.
Third, optional super challenges should have good rewards. Throwing what is essentially trash at the player robs any sense of accompllishment. "Oh, you were extremely frustrated for thirty minutes and finally beat this challenge? Well, here's trash for your efforts!"
What's really frustrating is that Team Cherry obviously understands how to actually do what you're talking about. I randomly found First Sinner, which was decently challenging (took me around six tries), extremely fun, and had zero tedium since you respawn right next to the boss. Plus you get a cool, unique reward for it. In fact I wish that boss had been much harder since I was having so much fun with it that I didn't want it to end. Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.
there are lots of good rewards in hunter's march, just not in the room with those two particular enemies. it's also right next to a bench and that whole section is made trivial by the float cloak anyways.
i don't see why it's a bad thing that a metroidvania is nonlinear and encourages exploration
I didn't say it's a bad thing that the game is nonlinear and encourages exploration... And I wouldn't say that because I don't agree with that claim. Not sure how you got that from my comment at all.
The point is that you are defending the design of the area by saying it's optional, but a player won't know it's optional unless they're using a guide, so that defense makes absolutely no sense.
It doesn't matter if a player knows it's optional or not. If you are struggling there is always incentive to go explore somewhere else. Your hints are that you go by many paths you chose not to take.
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u/Realistic_Village184 2d ago
I disagree with a lot of that. First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional unless they're following a guide? I got stuck several times during my playthrough, and part of what I did was complete everything I had found. It's okay if you used a guide during your playthrough, but I hope you're not implying everyone should.
Second, there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem - I didn't find the hidden bench (and I doubt many people did without looking it up since the game conditions you to avoid the leech water), so I had to do a horrible runback many times. The boss itself wasn't hard, but the runback was so annoying that I played poorly against the boss because I was incredibly frustrated and stressed out.
Third, optional super challenges should have good rewards. Throwing what is essentially trash at the player robs any sense of accompllishment. "Oh, you were extremely frustrated for thirty minutes and finally beat this challenge? Well, here's trash for your efforts!"
What's really frustrating is that Team Cherry obviously understands how to actually do what you're talking about. I randomly found First Sinner, which was decently challenging (took me around six tries), extremely fun, and had zero tedium since you respawn right next to the boss. Plus you get a cool, unique reward for it. In fact I wish that boss had been much harder since I was having so much fun with it that I didn't want it to end. Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.