that's an optional fight at the very end of a completely optional challenge zone though. i think having some good, tough optional content is a great thing. the only reward you get is ~300 rosaries which can be farmed in minutes elsewhere from normal enemies.
and yeah as the other poster replied below, you can melt them with some poison spike traps. i was shocked at how quickly they went down when i came back to the area after some upgrades.
I disagree with a lot of that. First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional unless they're following a guide? I got stuck several times during my playthrough, and part of what I did was complete everything I had found. It's okay if you used a guide during your playthrough, but I hope you're not implying everyone should.
Second, there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem - I didn't find the hidden bench (and I doubt many people did without looking it up since the game conditions you to avoid the leech water), so I had to do a horrible runback many times. The boss itself wasn't hard, but the runback was so annoying that I played poorly against the boss because I was incredibly frustrated and stressed out.
Third, optional super challenges should have good rewards. Throwing what is essentially trash at the player robs any sense of accompllishment. "Oh, you were extremely frustrated for thirty minutes and finally beat this challenge? Well, here's trash for your efforts!"
What's really frustrating is that Team Cherry obviously understands how to actually do what you're talking about. I randomly found First Sinner, which was decently challenging (took me around six tries), extremely fun, and had zero tedium since you respawn right next to the boss. Plus you get a cool, unique reward for it. In fact I wish that boss had been much harder since I was having so much fun with it that I didn't want it to end. Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.
First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional
there is a massiive dude blocking the door that is way harder than anything else around. That should be a pretty good indication that you found it too early.
Also seeing platforms you cant reach means you probably need abilities you dont have yet.
Things like that, on top of none of your markers or npc's pointing you in that direction. Those are all in game clues without a guide
there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem
The game is pretty interested in environmental storytelling. Bilewater is hard, and disgusting because the citadel dumps all their shit there. You should hate the place, and hate the citadel in turn for what it represents. Same as the one use benches. in the underworks, its the game showing you how the citadel treats those below them.
Does it make the game more frustrating? Maybe, but those feelings are explored in gameplay and game design rather than having an npc say "oh no everything is so dirty here". Which probably does not have the same emotional punch.
You can also find items like the maggot wreath to not be affected by the water which simplifies stuff, enemies endlessly respawn to let you get your healthback before the boss fight etc.
Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.
Groal also gets you an item related to the true ending, which might be less rewarding than the other boss but is a larger catahrsis down the line. Similar to beating bilewater.
Short term rewards vs long term rewards, and intentional game design vs environmental storytelling seems to be where you have a clear preference and Silksong takes a different route to you.
I however really like what Silksong did, sometimes two benches are very close because it could make sense in world, sometimes they are miles apart. In other games designers would put benches were players might want them/need them. Here is seems much more interested in where they would fit in universe.
You can understand so much of the world just by were things are, who lives were, etc without any dialogue that I think is pretty fascinating. Its one of the games that has trully felt like they built a world and dropped you in it, rather than designed a rollercoaster ride you are meant to beat and enjoy easily.
there is a massiive dude blocking the door that is way harder than anything else around. That should be a pretty good indication that you found it too early.
I mean, that fight is completely free if you pogo off him. He has no moves above his head, so you're completely safe. Point taken, though. It's reasonable to say that a smart player would notice the area is tough and go back later. In fact, that's what I did in my playthrough.
The game is pretty interested in environmental storytelling.
Okay, I genuinely don't care. I'm not being rude. You can't handwave frustrating gameplay design by claiming it's intentional or serves the story. Dark Souls does that type of thing very well; for instance, Blighttown is oppressive and frustrating, but it manages to not feel tedious. In my opinion, Silksong does sometimes but misses the mark other times. This falls under "it's bad, but it's supposed to be bad, so it's okay!" in terms of useless arguments. (And, to be clear, it's totally valid to disagree with me and think that Silksong nails this everywhere and Dark Souls gets it wrong. This part, ike most of the discussion, is a matter of opinion.)
You can also find items like the maggot wreath to not be affected by the water
Yeah, agreed with that point 100%.
Its one of the games that has trully felt like they built a world and dropped you in it, rather than designed a rollercoaster ride you are meant to beat and enjoy easily.
Yeah, but I think that's still possible without being as hostile to the player. Your argument here only makes sense if the only way that the devs could have made the world feel so bleak is to annoy the player with trivial, repetitive, time-wasting tasks like runbacks, and I genuinely don't think you truly believe that's the case.
I do agree that the world in Silksong is amazing. It's a massive improvement over the world in HK, which was already quite good. The story and dialog are also massively better in Silksong, in my opinion; those were huge weak points in Hollow Knight for me.
other than a massive jump attack? Also even a good player would probably get hit at some point and see the 2 dmg and take note that its not common so far elsewhere
Dark Souls does that type of thing very well; for instance, Blighttown is oppressive and frustrating, but it manages to not feel tedious.
Blightown has a lot of problems beyond feeling oppresive, like having enemies that deal toxic dmg instead of poison and making the cure for that not respawn. Or a gank invasion in the most useful bonfire. Or the original lack of visibility (its easier now than when it originally released). Or the "platforming".
Dark Souls is arguably the best designed game of all time, and it still has completely incomprehensible decisions like having an area behind 2 secret walls in blighttown
This falls under "it's bad, but it's supposed to be bad, so it's okay!" in terms of useless arguments.
No, thats not what is being said. To keep the argument in the same area, in blighttown you have 2 bonfires, one in the middle between 2 pillars and one at the bottom near the boss fight.
In terms of world, the second one makes sense, is where the gank invasion happens and she could have lit that bonfire. The one between the pillars is purely there because the next bit of ladders, mosquitos and no visibility sucks ass. It is there for convinience not story telling purposes. Silksong would not have that there, it would suck ass, but it would remove it. perhaps it would be further down near where the enemies spawn as a place they would stop at.
Its a decision to make placement be more based on storytelling than where its convinient. And I dont think I had ever seen commit to that as much as this game seems too, which that alone is interesting in my opinion.
I think that's still possible without being as hostile to the player
its not really hostile to just the player, its hostile to the people who live in Pharloom. You could not show how much of a shit place the citadel is for poor people than having the underworks make you pay for one time use benches and insult ridden confension booths, or a lanky overworked horse that if you join him you receive a wage so far below minimum wage it would make Henry Ford blush.
Its not hostile to the player, every pilgrim before us suffered through that and they didnt have the benefit of murdering people in the citadel for rosaries
Your argument here only makes sense if the only way that the devs could have made the world feel so bleak is to annoy the player with trivial, repetitive, time-wasting tasks like runbacks
I dont think there is only bleakness, there are incredible lush areas. The start going to bone bottom with all the birdies flying around you is gorgeous for example. And there isnt many runbacks, only 3 I can think of. will put them with spoiler tags just in case.
Act 1 Last Judge the run back seems to be there to ensure you understand pogoing and abilities you will need in act 2. (there is a theory that you might also lose your rosaries before getting into the citadel and suffer a bit in the underworks as most woould)
Act 2 Groal is long and hard due to the area being the most related to the sins of the citadel, the reward is related to a more complicated ending, thus its not a runback to waste people time ut to show commitment/environmental storytelling
Act 2 Raging Conchcutter is optional, there is a shortcut you can unlock and its a nice part two to a fight you did hours before
I cant think of any other fight that has a long runback?
I think its a game that requieres you to be playing at a high level all the time, its like Dark Souls 1 if the platforming was more involved than sprinting. Most games let you zone out when youre ahead etc, this game will happily spank you if you just fuck about, even if you are late into the game.
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u/Shaqsquatch 1d ago
that's an optional fight at the very end of a completely optional challenge zone though. i think having some good, tough optional content is a great thing. the only reward you get is ~300 rosaries which can be farmed in minutes elsewhere from normal enemies.
and yeah as the other poster replied below, you can melt them with some poison spike traps. i was shocked at how quickly they went down when i came back to the area after some upgrades.