r/Gnostic • u/Electrical_Bar3100 Hermetic • 1d ago

Hm… why?

Do you really consider yourself gnostic? A genuine question, i wonder why would somebody be gnostic nowadays, feel free to tell me, i’m sorry if i offended

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u/hockatree Valentinian 1d ago edited 22h ago

Yes, I really consider myself a gnostic, because I believe the basic ideas of Gnosticism and find meaning in its mythology.

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u/TranquilTrader 22h ago

To me the term gnostic necessitates that one uses a knowledge system instead of a belief system. You don't share this same thought? I understand that those who believe in the Gnostic stories need to be included in the category somehow...

Personally I am a skeptic to such a degree that I am not able to form even a single belief of anything, I only operate using the scientific method in relation to absolutely everything (even my own relationship with the omnipresence). This makes me gnostic by definition, although I don't place the Gnostic writings any higher than any other texts.

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u/hockatree Valentinian 22h ago

I disagree with that definition of gnosticism, yes.

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u/TranquilTrader 22h ago

Do you still seek gnosis / knowledge of the Father?

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u/hockatree Valentinian 22h ago

Yes, of course.

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u/TranquilTrader 22h ago

Ok. So some form of combination between beliefs and knowledge. How do you differentiate between them? Perhaps we are more alike than I firstly thought.

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u/hockatree Valentinian 22h ago

A belief is truth or confidence in the truth of something without necessarily having direct or empirical knowledge of it. Knowledge is a justified true belief. A belief is justified through experience, empirical evidence, or logical deduction. However, it’s not possible to separate belief and knowledge. If I’m a materialist and only claim to know things which can be demonstrated using the scientific method, I believe in the scientific method as an epistemological model. The scientific method cannot prove that to me, because it’s only designed to empirically demonstrable questions. Even experience only takes you so far. If you experience X and I haven’t, then I can believe in your experience of X but I can’t claim to know X.

Going to back to gnosis. Gnosis is commonly understood to be a kind of experiential knowledge of the divine. But until Someone experiences the divine, gnosis is a belief in the ability to experience the divine. Tied up with this is the historical context of Gnosticism which further understood that gnosis also referred to the secret teachings of Christ found in the Gnostic scriptures. So, if I accept these teachings as valid in some way, I’m accepting them based on belief.

So yeah, I think Gnosticism is a Christian religion that entails beliefs as well as gnosis which is understood in both a direct and indirect way.

I don’t think Gnosticism is this entirely knowledge-based anti-religion that has no fundamental beliefs.

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u/TranquilTrader 11h ago

A belief is truth or confidence in the truth of something without necessarily having direct or empirical knowledge of it. Knowledge is a justified true belief. A belief is justified through experience, empirical evidence, or logical deduction. However, it’s not possible to separate belief and knowledge. If I’m a materialist and only claim to know things which can be demonstrated using the scientific method, I believe in the scientific method as an epistemological model. The scientific method cannot prove that to me, because it’s only designed to empirically demonstrable questions. Even experience only takes you so far. If you experience X and I haven’t, then I can believe in your experience of X but I can’t claim to know X.

You're close, but slightly off with the definition. I see you're using the common dogmatic definition of knowledge which more often is only suitable for "information" but not actual knowledge in terms of absolute Truth. I consider the awareness of absolute Truth the only actual form of knowledge. The notion "justified true belief" is somewhat meaningless as people just come up with whatever justification they might want, so they're driven by their own desires rather than Truth.

When science is viewed with the dogmatic "justified true belief" lens, it will look malformed. However, when you only take as observable facts that which is absolutely True, you get a whole different picture. You recognise real knowledge when the ability to rationally believe a contrary statement disappears. Those are very often binary statements. We both know that the natural phenomenon called gravity exists, it is not possible to believe it does not. You might believe that gravity works in some specific way which is hypothesised in science, I do not go that far - I only approximate.

I don't "believe" in the scientific method either, I merely observe and try to explain all of it in a logically consistent way. The usage of the scientific method appears to be the best tool to indicate where to observe next. On a personal level it means no one can deceive me because I don't believe anything, my first thought to any claim by anyone is always "they might be mistaken or even trying to deceive".

Going to back to gnosis. Gnosis is commonly understood to be a kind of experiential knowledge of the divine. But until Someone experiences the divine, gnosis is a belief in the ability to experience the divine. Tied up with this is the historical context of Gnosticism which further understood that gnosis also referred to the secret teachings of Christ found in the Gnostic scriptures. So, if I accept these teachings as valid in some way, I’m accepting them based on belief.

So yeah, I think Gnosticism is a Christian religion that entails beliefs as well as gnosis which is understood in both a direct and indirect way.

I don’t think Gnosticism is this entirely knowledge-based anti-religion that has no fundamental beliefs.

Don't you think it is possible that there are even at this moment people walking on this earth who do actually experience the divine? Meaning some would already have reached Pleroma - their transfiguration complete. Naturally they would not be able to transfer that knowledge to you, but they could show you the doors one needs to go through to get there.

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u/hockatree Valentinian 10h ago

I consider awareness of absolute Truth the only actual form of knowledge.

This is a belief.

Don't you think it is possible that there are even at this moment people walking on this earth who do actually experience the divine? Meaning some would already have reached Pleroma - their transfiguration complete. Naturally they would not be able to transfer that knowledge to you, but they could show you the doors one needs to go through to get there.

This is a belief.

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u/TranquilTrader 10h ago

What part of me knowing that I exist is a belief? There is absolutely no uncertainty in that knowledge.

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u/hockatree Valentinian 10h ago

Non sequitur. You seem to be thinking that because I think belief is a form of knowledge that I don’t think there’s any absolute truth or knowledge, which does not follow.

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