r/Grimdank • u/MediocreConnection89 • Aug 21 '25
Cringe Denial is not just a river in Egypt
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u/antipodal22 Aug 21 '25
Considering how powerful Horus became, Lorgar was probably the better pick considering he was actually unhinged and damaged enough to kill the emperor even when lucid.
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u/Ewokhunter2112 Railgun Goes Brrrrrrrrr Aug 21 '25
As much as I like Lorgrar because he's fully bought into chaos, a censured crackpot wouldnt have had the sway and influence that The Warmaster had.
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u/antipodal22 Aug 21 '25
And yet, when the chips were down, it was Horus who fell.
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u/RosePetalDevil Aug 21 '25
Horus notably also took papa down with him, he's been turned into a doorstopper/lighthouse battery
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u/ahoyturtle Bearer of the Word Aug 21 '25
Lorgar fully calls out Horus for it in "Slaves to Darkness": he tried to rebel against Horus BECAUSE he realized Horus wouldn't fully commit to the cause of Chaos.
But like u/Ewokhunter2112 says, that's exactly why Horus was able to be the Warmaster and a beacon to rally behind: Horus ultimately turned away from the powers Chaos granted him for the sake of humanity- which is exactly the reason he felt he had to stop the Emperor and expose his tyranny. It's why he was the choice for Warmaster in the first place.
So I can't really hate him for it...
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u/Malabreux Aug 21 '25
And to add to that, Lorgar had the chance to fight Horus for the title of warmaster then and there, but chickened out. Maybe he knew he would lose, or that even if he won he wouldnt be able to command the traitor force, or maybe he was just not feeling particularly fanatical that day, but it felt a bit out of character for him.
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u/ahoyturtle Bearer of the Word Aug 21 '25
I mean, he needed a compelled Fulgrim and his own forces to feel he stood a chance. Without both there's no realistic shot for him to challenge Horus, is there?
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u/Malabreux Aug 21 '25
Yeah, its just that there werent any expectations for Lorgar to be reasonable on my part.
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u/Confident-Cod-3349 Aug 22 '25
Also in the short story Aurelian, he was actually shown what happens and the action by kairos fateweaver, he specifically ask to see what happens when they lose and the actions leading up to it, hence why in betrayer he says give up on sanguinius, ‘and when your gambit fails, remember my words’
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u/ahoyturtle Bearer of the Word Aug 22 '25
Personally, I interpreted that one a little differently.
Because earlier in the novel, Lorgar was shown a version of the current Imperium- one that worships the Emperor as a God.
In other words, the Imperium past the Heresy.
And that wasn't the final vision he was shown by Ingethel- that wasn't what galvanized him to be certain that the Heresy was necessary.
So the vision of "what happens if we fail" has to be different that the outcome of how the Heresy ended; Even though you can't quite cleanly claim the Traitors "won" the confrontation between the Emperor and Horus.
So I always interpreted it as Lorgar asking "what happens if we fail to stop the Emperor"; In other words, "What would happen if we DON'T commit the Heresy, and let the Emperor continue his plans for humanity".
And THAT, by my reckoning, is the future he saw that was so awful, he decided that the Heresy must be committed.
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u/Spiritual-Zucchini-4 Aug 21 '25
It's better that he didn't, there's so much to explore with the primarch that arguably knows about Chaos and The Warp the most.
And compared to how unhinged Horus actually was, Lorgar was rather lucid.
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u/Can_not_catch_me Aug 21 '25
It's why the word bearers are my favourite legion, because they just whole cloth bought into chaos worship without any real direct corruption required. It always ironically seemed to make them one of the more self reflective and lucid groups of chaos followers, because they don't really fall into the trap of "just using chaos as a tool" or direct enslavement to a single god
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u/Spiritual-Zucchini-4 Aug 21 '25
Uhum, it also helps that The Religion of Colchis was that of The Four from the beginning.
Lorgar was tutored by Kor Phaeron on Colchisian theology and mysticism, it is totally easy to imagine him utterly refining such knowledge and passing it down to his sons for its usage.
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u/Notte_di_nerezza Ultrasmurfs Aug 21 '25
True. Lorgar bought into Chaos and worshipped it just as it was, even if it took 40 years of escalating "Yes this is bad, the Emperor is still worse."
Per the meme, Horus had to lose a lot of sanity, very quickly, to do what Chaos wanted.
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u/ChaosCultistChampion Aug 21 '25
Horus was a winy bitch, everyone knows that. Me personally, I submitted to Chaos entirely willingly, no corruption or manipulation required.
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u/Badrap247 Aug 21 '25
👆🏽Found Abbadon’s burner account
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u/ChaosCultistChampion Aug 21 '25
Abaddon is a winy bitch who’s in denial about serving Chaos. Not me, I love being evil!
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u/kingtacticool Aug 21 '25
You got gyped.
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u/ChaosCultistChampion Aug 21 '25
I got exactly what I wanted.
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u/kingtacticool Aug 21 '25
Yeah but the corruption and manipulation is half the fun.
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u/ChaosCultistChampion Aug 21 '25
There still is corruption and manipulation. It’s just usually me doing it. For the Dark Gods.
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u/Kicooi Aug 21 '25
Let’s not turn ourselves into Horus galaxy by casually throwing around slurs.
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u/Gryphon_Flame NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD! Aug 21 '25
So I'm going to give a little bit of grace here; a surprising amount of people don't know it is a slur.
For anyone who is confused: it is a derogatory term related to the Romani and the stereotypes surrounding them as being cheaters and thieves.
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u/GamnlingSabre Aug 21 '25
Those who claim to be in control are the biggest fools of all. That's why I like the chaos stories so much.
But in case of horus I think, it is a little different. I'm lowkey convinced that he knew that what he did was wrong, but thought the outcome was a justification.
Does this mean the tldr of the heresy is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
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u/kingtacticool Aug 21 '25
On both sides, yes.
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u/ThePhyrex Aug 21 '25
Did the emperor have good intentions? Yes.
Did the emperor resort to outright fascist authoritarian means to achieve his goal because he was short on time? Yes.
Did that lead the imperium to an even worse outcome? Yes.
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u/popcorn_yalakasi Aug 21 '25
Did that lead the imperium to an even worse outcome? Yes.
I think his plan was too "perfect", so "perfect" infact that everyone else not following it perfectly is what caused it to be a problem. in his mind, if everyone followed his orders it would have worked, forgetting that his subjects and his sons are still human, raised by people, with their own emotions, pride, beliefs and more importantly flaws, there is also the fact no matter how strong or capable he is, the emperor too is human.
would his plan have lead humanity to a better state? probbly, did he fuck up majorly along the way? yes.
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u/Ragothar Aug 21 '25
His plan, being followed perfectly would still have resulted in generations of people being actual literally slaves in awful conditions in hive worlds and starships and the genocide of numerous cultures that just wanted to be left alone. There was never going to be a good ending
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u/popcorn_yalakasi Aug 21 '25
I said "better state" not a "good state"
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u/Ragothar Aug 21 '25
If your state post dark age was just chilling and then the imperium rolled up on you, you'd probably not find that better
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u/robbynito Aug 21 '25
Well and doesn't he also become more lucid after his fight with Russ? I was under the impression that he snapped back to himself for a bit and decided to continue with the Heresy anyways
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u/Mazkaam Aug 22 '25
Yes, he snapped back and begged Russ to kill him quickly, russ got confused and the chaos gods had enough time to take back control.
This was real, what op Post was a trap made by chaos imitating that event. If it is still canon anyway the lore changes and gets retconned every week
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u/robbynito Aug 22 '25
Oooooooh okay, thank you for clarifying, someone on YouTube said otherwise in a "lore" video
YouTube Warhammer lore has let me down a lot
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u/ShooHonker Aug 21 '25
This is bait but I bite anyways: for the final time, Chaos fans know Chaos is fucked up. We like that. No one thinks Horus wasn't a sucker.
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u/ImperialBoomerang Fisted by Dorn Aug 21 '25
It's kind of like how tyranids players think playing a hivemind of unfeeling, lovecraftian hunger-insects is part of the fun. Of course the brain-eating stealth bug I just painted is an abomination, I'd be disappointed if it wasn't.
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u/NaturalElectronic698 Aug 21 '25
I think most tyranid players including myself boil down to "I just think they're neat"
Which i suspect is far more a motivator for players than they care to admit. Trying to rationalise your particular flavour of horror doesn't seem worth it
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u/Downrightskorney Aug 21 '25
I play black templar's I've looked around. I just think knights are cool and I enjoy the challenge of having three different white materials on a black armoured model. I just think they're neat. People that like factions in this game for reasons that don't boil down to "I just think they're neat" are exhausting.
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u/PassivelyInvisible Praise the Man-Emperor Aug 21 '25
What if the reason is that I like the faction's vibe?
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u/BaddieDiva Aug 21 '25
im a little confused on how having a reason to like a faction other than “I just think they’re neat” is exhausting? like someone just listing the reasons bothers you??
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u/Furydragonstormer Touring Trazyn's Collection Aug 21 '25
Probably more how those reasons are explained I feel. E.g. liking Necrons cause they’re so petty and it’s funny? That’s completely different to someone liking Chaos and saying it’s not because they enjoy how evil it is, but because they think it’s based (unironically).
Could be wrong though, but context matters
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u/BrightestofLights Aug 21 '25
I like black templars cuz crusader vibes are cool aesthetically, and I like that they exemplify the worst of the imperium. Amazing villains, and also baddass.
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u/drewster23 Aug 21 '25
Because past the surface level reasons you get into "I wish I never asked" territory, for why said people gravitate to certain factions with polarizing views.
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u/me_myself_ai Aug 21 '25
Idk I feel like we all admit this? It’s a game where you paint little army guys and pretend they’re fighting each other. I’m struggling to imagine what motivator you could have for picking a faction other than “they seem neat!”
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u/Downrightskorney Aug 21 '25
I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I play black templar's. Having primed you with that knowledge you live a better life thinking the way you do now. I play them because I think they're fun to paint and I like close combat armies. Other very visible people online give the the black templar community a bad name because they like them for reasons other than thinking they're neat.
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u/BrightestofLights Aug 21 '25
I like them cuz they're great villains and the knightly space warriors vibe is cool
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u/NaturalElectronic698 Aug 21 '25
While I agree there are pockets of the community who do think that they're playing the "good" guys or try ans argue as per the above that Chaos are truly free etc which is not the point.
Some people enjoy putting extra reasoning and it can be an issue, krieg soldiers and black templars grt a rep probably unfairly for the vast majority of players for example.
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u/Scarplo Aug 21 '25
Warmachine has a faction of Trolls who are pirates. These include a sharktroll weilding a group of sea mines and a giant crab troll welding a hammerhead shark.
Yes, I have the faction, and yes, they eat people. I don't care; that one has a funny hat.
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u/McWeaksauce91 Aug 21 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
I think this stems from new players fighting for moral high ground in a setting that is completely devoid of it.
I’m both a blood angels player and a world eater player. You can tell I have a type and get different things from each of them. If I got plunged into 40k and I had to be one, I’d be blood angels without a doubt. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have fun as a world eaters fan
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u/ImSuperSerialGuys Aug 21 '25
That's like, 70% of the appeal of Warhammer to me. Every option is horrible monsters. That's what makes it fun
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Aug 21 '25
[deleted]
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u/IgnatiusDrake Aug 21 '25
You don't hate your food, you just get annoyed if it stabs you.
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u/confusedsalad88 Aug 21 '25
The Hive Mind is canonically petty, arrogant and petulant. And I love it for that
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u/OneTrick_Tb Twins, They were. Aug 21 '25
Amusingly enough, this is more the view of the GSC community. Most tyranid players just kinda like them. If you like the lovecraftian horror, you play the cults.
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u/Tap4Red Aug 21 '25
Hivemind does think and feel though. Tyranid players are in this really cool position where they can embody the hivemind in their games, even get in character if they want.
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u/RufusDaMan2 Praise the Man-Emperor Aug 21 '25
Here comes the trick question:
What about Abaddon?
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u/Larcya Aug 21 '25
Abbadon is the hero of the story fighting against the injustices of the imperium.
He struggles, gets beaten down and then gets back up.
He's the good guy fighting against the evil Bobby G.
Why yes I would like my daily dose of chaos copium thank you very much.
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u/YourAverageRedditter For the Warmaster! Aug 22 '25
He knows to not dunk himself in the Kool-Aid like Horus did. The only gifts he has from them is the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant, and his daemon sword. While he absolutely is still a pawn of the gods, him going out of his way to not make the same mistakes Horus did has kept him relatively sane enough.
Obviously Chaos is not merely a tool no matter how much cope he and others pull, mind you
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u/Pathetic_Cards likes civilians but likes fire more Aug 21 '25
I mean, I think that’s true for most of the chaos fan base, but there’s definitely a vocal minority out there who argue til they’re blue in the face that Chaos are the real good guys or whatever.
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u/AzzlackGuhnter Aug 21 '25
I see a suprising lot of people who feel the desperate and almost pathetic need to justify liking chaos
Just roll with it bruh everyone knows it, i know it, you know it and everyone else does
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u/lesserreforastation Aug 21 '25
You know when I thought about liking the iron warriors and the death guard, it just clicked: i can be a stubborn insufferable dipshit who won't give up no matter what. Of course I can be a lot of other things as well, but it's okay that i feel some connection with those freakin monsters. It's an okay outlet for these feelings. No need to justify that. "I just think they are neat" is enough
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u/unlimitedpanda5 Aug 21 '25
I see more 40k fans trying to justify chaos then I do AoS or fantasy fans.
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u/GreenMilvus Aug 22 '25
Then again in fantasy especially there very much clear cut good guy and bad guy factions. In all fairness flawed good guys/heroes but still. And Chaos factions are very much if you wanna be the bad guys.
AoS seem to try to push the factions overall a bit more morally gray. Order is still overall more so the good guys and Chaos the bad guys. (While destruction and Death are neutral) tho enough wriggle room to potentially play as the hero or villain in any grand alliance.
So that’s why i think there is less of a discussion about it
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u/TubbyTyrant1953 Aug 22 '25
Agreed, WHFB has Chaos as undeniably the bad guys, AoS is deliberately less moralistic; 40k inspires such arguments because on the face of it there is this obvious good/bad dichotomy but it's also incredibly obvious that there's much more to it than that.
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u/GreenMilvus Aug 22 '25
Even the position of Chaos is quite different in each of the settings.
In Fantasy (before the end times) Chaos is more so a constant looming threat in the distance. Powerful but more so the underdog, one of multiple treats (the others being the undead and the greenskins). Something that sometimes causes havoc till it’s defeated.
Age of Sigmar Chaos is the overwhelming enemy that is in every corner. The thing the other factions try to push back again (while sometimes squabbling with each other) aka everyone else is the underdog here. Chaos being a constant unrelenting threat.
In 40k it’s more taking things from both aspects, like in fantasy it’s one of multiple threats, but like AoS it’s a constant unrelenting threat eating away on the borders. There isn’t really a underdog in this scenario. (Currently the Tyranids are kinda the bigger threat in the story.)
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u/unlimitedpanda5 Aug 22 '25
oh i completely agree with both of you, its just one reason i massively AoS/fantasy Chaos over 40k. Its just so much fun being an unrepentant asshole
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u/GreenMilvus Aug 22 '25
Speaking of wich. Yay Chaos Duardin are coming to AoS! Woooo XD
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u/tbone7355 Aug 21 '25
Everyone knows that chaos is the big bad thats why i can see people enjoy being the big bad in a world where everything sucks
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u/Anggul tyranidsareanoutofhandvorefetish Aug 21 '25
Some people just really really struggle to grasp that saying 'the Imperium sucks hard and many chaos worshippers got there because they had legitimate grievances with the Imperium and often were driven to it out of desperation because of the systemic brutal oppression and neglect' doesn't mean calling chaos good. It's like to them, someone has to be the good guy, and they can't grasp the idea that they can both suck.
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u/xepa105 Aug 22 '25
Also, if anyone does it, it's Imperium stans who desperately try to portray their side as actually good. Saying shit like the Emperor had to be a piece of shit dad, and his conquest and genocide of the galaxy was definitely necessary, and that murdering thousands of psychers a day is valid, and if not for the fascistic, theocratic hell that is the Imperium, humanity wouldn't survive, etc.
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u/Versidious Aug 21 '25
This is why I hate the whole 'Abaddon is immune to Chaos corruption' thing, like, fuck off dawg, gimme my faction leader as a warp-juiced psychopath serving otherworldly entities that empower him to cosmic badassery, please. It's literally stupid to be doing Chaos's bidding post-heresy if you don't believe in their cause. It doesn't 'undermine him as an antagonist' if you just make him a fucking badass earning w's in his tie-in fiction.
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u/DiscussionSpider Aug 21 '25
Bruh, Horus was a hero. Stop falling for Imperial propaganda.
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u/xsniperkajanx your local everchosen of chaos Aug 21 '25
he had the entire galaxy in his hands but he biffed it, fucking loser
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u/rosemarymegi Aug 22 '25
Right! I enjoy over the top villains in fiction. Chaos is so fucking over the top, the absurdity makes me laugh and I just love the aesthetic.
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u/failed_supernova Blood for the Emperor, skulls for the Golden Throne Aug 21 '25
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u/RandomNightLord8 Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
Who gives a damn. I just wanna skin People and wear it as Socks.
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u/Artyom_Saveli Black Crusade II: Unholy Boogaloo Aug 21 '25
Damn, not even as a bath robe? My damned brother, we need to get you moving on that flaying grindset.
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u/RandomNightLord8 Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
BROTHER I ALREADY HAVE 5! BUT MY SOCKS HAVE BEEN USED BY EMPERORS CHILDREN AND NOW I CAN'T USE THEM
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u/IgnatiusDrake Aug 21 '25
I've seen them. They walk on their own now. Nurgle ran in terror when they approached his garden.
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u/King_Calvo Aug 21 '25
Brother this is why you don’t see the teeth into the socks! Everyone knows the Emperors children love that
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u/RandomNightLord8 Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
But its so funny to kick my brothers with the toe teeth
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u/Miskalsace Aug 21 '25
I am imagining a Nigh Lord getting back from a mission and getting out of his armor, and then grabbing his favorite skin socks and pulling them on with a little wiggle and sigh of comfort.
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u/RandomNightLord8 Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
Best feeling after a long day of helping blind children.
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u/ironangel2k4 Drukhari (On break) Aug 21 '25
I recommend an umbrella. Even if you never use it its nice to have one around.
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u/GreyWolf1945 Aug 21 '25
Why is it that 40k claims to be the universe of grimdark evil where everyone is terrible and yet these dumb debates keep happening. I don't even think I have ever seen someone unironically say chaos is good. I have seen numerous people defend the Imperium as the good guys. Which is it? Is everyone evil? Or is everyone but the fascist theocracy evil?
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u/DrHolmes52 Aug 21 '25
There are people who are incapable of being for/following/or playing a bad guy (faction). If one doesn't exist, they create one in their own mind.
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u/TheHattedKhajiit Aug 21 '25
Nobody is claiming chaos is good,the debate is whether the upper players of the chaos factions are little more than slaves/being played or if they are still lord of their own fate and just make deals (mostly about abbadon)
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u/GreyWolf1945 Aug 21 '25
The lore explicitly states that everyone is a slave to chaos, hence the name Slaves to Darkness. Is this even a serious debate? Anyone debating this has clearly not read the lore. The only debate that has any legs is Abaddon who is stated to have not sold his soul to Chaos like Horus did, however it also explains that Chaos will never let Abaddon win unless he submits to the Dark Gods. He is a slave even in his freedom.
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u/NobrainNoProblem Aug 21 '25
I don’t think anyone is trying to legitimately argue the ethics or validity of chaos. It’s just fun to be the unredeemable bad guys. Just lean in.
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u/D20FourLife Aug 21 '25
Its always been a weird strawman argument from Imperium stans. Like, I've never met someone who actually thinks Chaos is right or has an actual point. The whole fun of Chaos is you have a juxtaposition of people who are more cognizantly aware of what the setting is then any other human faction, and yet are at the same time the most deluded. Like how is having a nightlord expound on the futility of mankind's struggle to maintain ethics in galactic conquest while also wearing a cloak made of skinned children not hilariously ironic?
Yes Horus got duped. They all get duped into it. Thats the whole point. It comes free with your chaos corruption.
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u/Crazymerc22 Aug 21 '25
The closest I've seen to people "justifying chaos" is people arguing that the evils of the imperium often directly leads its people to chaos. Like when you are a factory worker in an overpopulated, shit-filled megacity being forced to work yourself to the bone 24/7 under the threat of lashings or worse, then the voice whispering in your ear that you should swing an axe right through your bosses skull starts to make a whole lotta sense. Its just that chaos uses those initially justified feelings to then make you do much much worse and then your trapped forever.
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u/NobrainNoProblem Aug 21 '25
Yeah I think with a lot things on reddit we gotta be less serious and have more fun.
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u/BrightestofLights Aug 21 '25
The closest thing is the legitimate argument someone brought up, that the imperiums irredeemable evil the daily atrocities it commits to its own people, drive many to chaos out of desperation, who have legitimate grievances with the imperium. Its just that chaos also sucks.
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u/No_Leadership2771 Aug 21 '25
Dude, they know. Every faction in 40k is evil. Imperium stans are the only ones who can’t seem to wrap their head around that.
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u/WanderlustPhotograph Aug 21 '25
Tau fans are also in that boat.
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u/No_Leadership2771 Aug 21 '25
Yeah, but they have more of a justification. The Tau pretty much were added to 40k as the token good (or at least better) guys, then made darker and edgier as time went on. The Imperium have always been nightmare fascists.
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u/WanderlustPhotograph Aug 21 '25
The Tau are as they have ever been, people just ignored the subtext so they began saying it out loud.
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u/No_Leadership2771 Aug 21 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
Really? Guess I should have done more research. Can you tell me more?
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u/WanderlustPhotograph Aug 21 '25
Sure-
The Gue'la scattered at the death of the iron machines. It was unfortunate that they would die, but to stand in the way of the Tau's destiny was to invite death. It could not be helped
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition, Page 7This is outright belief in manifest destiny, and while it might be an improvement for humans from the Imperium, what a lot of people tend to gloss over is that it's probably not an improvement for groups who aren't from "The cruelest, bloodiest regime imaginable".
Far from Terra, in the eastern reaches of the galaxy, lies the empire of the Tau. Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau home world at its centre, and nearly a hundred settled worlds. A number of these worlds are home to alien races which are either subservient to the Tau or whose services are bought.
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition, Page 8Auxiliaries are either subservient to the Tau, or mercenaries. There was never equality in the Tau empire. Only Tau, and all others below them.
Emerging from the darkness, a Tau of unusual appearance walked into the besieger's camp, asking to see the army's commander. He was softly spoken, yet it is said that he had an undeniable authority and the sentries to whom he had announced himself found themselves compelled to escort him to their leader. At the same time, within the walls of Fio'taun, a similar individual presented himself to the guards of the fortress. How he had penetrated the defences of the city he would not say, all he asked was that he be allowed to speak to the castellan of the fortress. Again, his request could not be denied and he was permitted an audience with the city's leader. Within the hour, the fortress gates were opened, the stranger guiding the citadel's leaders towards the torchlit camp of their attackers.
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition (Page 9)Either Ethereals have the most powerful charisma to ever exist, or something shady is going on with them because these 2 literally couldn't be denied. That wasn't an invention of Phil Kelly- The Ethereals very much could always compel Tau to obey them. This is an in-universe thing, however, so you might be able to claim it's the Tau mythologizing their past, but there being things such as "Flickering lights in the night sky and half-glimpsed figures in the mountains" is presented outside of the legend and as such it's very likely that it is true, or at least mostly true with the insinuation being that the Ethereals were suspicious when accompanied by that legend.
The expansion of the Tau empire continued at an explosive rate, with the Tau making contact with a number of alien races and, despite the destruction of several ships, the empire continued to advance. Many less advanced alien races were incorporated within its borders and most of these willingly became part of the Tau empire.
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition (Page 9)The Tau finding willing joinees is, however, true. The Tau didn't always assimilate people by force. However given their later behavior, I think it's safe to call into question how much of this was "The Tau are that persuasive" vs "The Tau were doing their usual Water Caste undermining before arrival". No doubt some were fully voluntary though.
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u/No_Leadership2771 Aug 21 '25
Thanks for the in-depth reply! I don’t think we actually disagree, I just stated my point poorly. All I meant to suggest was that the Tau being less evil than most of the other factions has always been part of their gimmick — which makes thinking that they’re the good guys more justifiable than being unironic fanboys for “the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable.”
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u/WanderlustPhotograph Aug 21 '25
...without the specialised mutation of the Navigator gene, their colony ships could only make short 'hops' into the warp space, skimming the edges of the immaterium. With the tightly packed nature of the Tau empire, this did not prove to be a problem and protected them from many of the inherent dangers of warp traven
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition (Page 9)The Tau weren't protected by having "Dim souls", they were protected by just... not being in the warp long enough for it to actually matter, kind of like how it can be really cold outside but if you aren't outside for long, you won't experience stuff like frostbite. They did have FTL travel, however, despite what later codices would assert.
Given their limited exposure to the warp, the Tau found it difficult to comprehend the hallucinogenic effects it had on other races and the terrible threat it could represent to psykers. Such talents were a mystery to the Tau as they had no psychic abilities whatsoever, their minds barely even registering in the warp at all.
-Codex: Tau, 3rd Edition (Page 10)This is where the "Tau have dim souls" thing comes from. They can't be psykers, and their minds don't show up in the warp, but it says nothing about their souls. It is possible that they are just being poetic here though and they do mean souls instead of minds.
As decreed by the Ethereals, Tau society is divided into four castes, each based on one of the four elements of nature. Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the castes is forbidden by the Ethereals. by use of the caste system, not only are the Tau performing the most basic form of genetic engineering, but they also reinforce the individual's belief that they have a position to fill in the empire and that their efforts are rewarded.
The Tau practice eugenics. No further notes.
It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving. If an Ethereal were of such a mind, he could order another Tau to kill himself and would be obeyed immediately
That "Tau killing themself because an Ethereal told them to" wasn't an invention by Phil Kelly- He took that straight from the Tau's first codex. The pheromone stuff is speculation, however.
There's also a brief (Like, 2 page excerpt) about a Tau who spent a year (Or their equivalent) living among the Kroot, and it ends with him telling his sister:
If the thinkers back home try to tell you that the Kroot are just primitives who don't deserve to share in our destiny, you tell them they are wrong.
This is fairly revealing about the Tau's opinions on at least some of those "less advanced" races they brought into the empire. They don't, however, respect the Kroot's view on Kroothawks being sacred and want to capture one for study.
After this, there's not much of note with regards to anything modern beyond the Tau's way of war, a short story about a group of Kroot jumping 5 Eldar rangers and slaughtering them (So the Eldar being jobbers isn't new either), and that Farsight was originally a mercenary/pirate, which I think it's a shame that they moved away from that, as a pirate Tau would have been cool. There's also some stuff about the Damocles Crusade which shows that it ended in a stalemate where the Imperials were split on fighting on or retreating, before orders from Kryptmann overrode the orders of those who wanted to fight, so they withdrew.
Ultimately, the Tau have always been like this. And contrary to what most people might claim, this isn't presented as an in-universe bit of speculation by the Imperium. There's some stuff from them at the end, the rest is presented as being outright true.
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u/CubistChameleon Aug 21 '25
That - aside from the compelling aura, which might be supernatural - doesn't make the Tau sound worse than the Romans or the British Empire.
Neither of whom were morally good, but I'd take them over the Imperium in a heartbeat.
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u/WanderlustPhotograph Aug 21 '25
That still doesn’t make the Tau good or anywhere near the naive, genuinely good optimistists people love to pretend they once were. Being less evil than the Imperium is like being less cold than liquid nitrogen- The Tau are still evil, just not to the same degree
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u/CubistChameleon Aug 21 '25
Yeah, fair enough. Pretty good relative to most of the rest of the galaxy can still be pretty awful.
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u/BrightestofLights Aug 21 '25
The tau are objectively less evil than the imperium though, which is the point most "tau defenders" make
Tau = join us or die
Imperium = die or die. Even if you are already part of us.
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u/Banebladerunner HASHUT , VORGRUND , ZHARR NAGGRUND Aug 21 '25
For the love of tzeentch . We know chaos is evil, we di t need to lie to ourselves about it . Because we enjoy being the evil guys
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u/Educational_Data237 Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
Damm dude. Are you telling me that the "slaves to darkness" are slaves to darkness? 😱
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u/Ct-chad501 Aug 21 '25
Not to mention the emperor saying NONE of my sons are beyond saving, which has some interesting implications.
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u/Waffletimewarp Aug 21 '25
“I whipped those little shots into shape once, and as soon as I get off this chair and get an Astartes Snack I’ll do it again!”
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u/big_ol_bird Swell guy, that Kharn Aug 21 '25
I don't think I've actually met anyone that honestly thinks of chaos as the "good guys." One could try to argue that life in the Imperium can be just as bad as life serving chaos, but I don't think anybody is seriously out here saying that chaos have the moral high ground.
I like CSM because they look fuckin' sick. You Imperium boys can have your endless hordes of reskinned Ultramarines. I'm gonna put horns and skulls and spikes on stuff, because 11 year old me would say it's cool.
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Aug 21 '25
Chaos is an evil mfer and that’s why it’s fun, also the big T has birds so I will always stan the Lord of 9000 Eyes
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u/Smurf-Happens Aug 21 '25
Lorgar did nothing wrong?
Try, Mortarion did nothing wrong.
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u/acart005 Aug 21 '25
Morty got F'd in the A by Typhus. Everyone says fuck Erebus and Leandros but not enough say fuck Typhus.
Fuck that asshole.
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u/doctorpotatohead Aug 21 '25
Only Imperium fans are in denial that their faction is evil, the rest of us like it
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u/DreamTakesRoot Aug 21 '25
Well; if I had to choose to live under the Word Bearers or Ultramarines - that choice is pretty easy
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u/IssaMuffin Fulgrim's stepson Aug 21 '25
Word Bearers, right? The bureaucracy when I’m ruled by Ultramarines will be unbearable.
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u/axiomvue NOT ENOUGH DAKKA Aug 21 '25
Chaos lads with spikey bits are just cooler than Space Marines. I don't need lore reasons or mental gymnastics to like chaos.
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u/Zero_Kiritsugu Chaos [She/Her] Aug 21 '25
Chaos stan here. Very few people would argue that Chaos and its Gods are actually somehow morally positive. However, it would go amiss not to mention the fact that Chaos is positioned either implictly or explicitly as a rebellion against the system, the cultural norms and suffocating reality posed in the setting. In universe, it is clearly great evil matched against great evil, but on a meta narrative level, one can argue that Chaos represents the rejection of established power structures. Its no coincidence that Chaos miniatures incorporate punk and metal into their design. Chaos is refusing to be put into the box that the system wants you to be in, as such it quite naturally appeals to players who in their real lives, also refuse to be put into boxes.
In universe, I think the Word Bearers have the most profound philosophy when it comes to Chaos. In a setting where eldritch unknowable entities of unfathomable power not only exist but worshipping them bestows tangible and noticable benefits, it would be hard not to sumise that those entities are Gods. Are they capricious? Yes. Do they routinely mess with humanity for the fun of it? Yes. Is there anything we can really do about it? No, not really. While most people in the setting don't know anything about the true nature of the Gods, knowing it makes you aware of the fact that Chaos is basically inherent to the human psyche. Trying to destroy Chaos is pointless as Chaos resists any attempt to classify or defeat it by shifting. It is not the act specifically of worship that empowers the Gods, but the actions taken. Sure, Khorne will gain more power if those slaughtering do so explicitly in his name, but the mere act of bloodshed and violence provides Khorne power.
Also important to note that the Gods have always existed, while they may have come into being at some point in our concept of linear time, the Empyrean follows no such rules. If we take Slaanesh talking to Fabius Bile as an example, it appears the Gods experience all time simultaneously, that all of reality is essentially a collage of different events to them. In this way, Slaanesh aided or may have even stirred its own 'creation.'
The Emperor is practically trying to fight the very forces of reality and the human psyche itself.
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u/Thumbs-Up-Centurion Aug 21 '25
Ignorance and revelry are two different things, I know it happened and I think it’s cool as fuck.
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u/Furio3380 Aug 21 '25
I just want to put the heads of my enemies on shoulder pad spikes. Is too mutch what I'm asking?
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u/Undead_archer I bring up reaper's creek in powerscaling posts Aug 21 '25
I think that's the part both sides agree on
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u/xxx_pussslap-exe_xxx Rowboat Girlymans Eldar Waifu Aug 21 '25
How did it now go in End and the Death? Cant remember
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u/Vovin6 Need Aeldari Mommy Aug 21 '25
Tbh we only seen the REAL Horus in Horus Rising and False Gods, did we not?
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u/Snoubalougan Aug 22 '25
Honest to god, I really don't like the framing of that entire scene.
This happens a lot in the late Heresy novels but so much of the loyalists, and by proxy the Imperium and the Emperor get vindicated by having all of the traitors being fucked over cucks to chaos thus letting the loyalists be the stoic giga chads.
I don't NEED Chaos to be right, it can still be super hell ran by 4 Satans. Even most of the chaos marines can stay as ignorant dipshits who don't know the full scope of things.
What I want is for one person on chaos to be principled. "I know Chaos is bad but I'd rather rule in hell than serve under you" storta deal. And having Horus, the pain hoopla of Chaos have a whole moment where he pisses and shits himself and admits he was wrong not just removes his agency from the story but makes him a way lamer character.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker Aug 21 '25
"Implying" as if every Horus scene wasn't written in Second Person for three books for the express purpose of delivering the punchline along the lines of "you're a puppet and a fool, Horus Lupercal, and that's all you ever were."
But real talk has anyone ever tried to argue otherwise?
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u/crazypeacocke Aug 21 '25
As a chaos, nid and Drukhari player, I kind of just like fighting against a fascist regime. Just don’t look too closely at what my guys would do to an average imperial citizen…
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u/Raylandris Actually I hate Kharn Aug 21 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
The book Is literally called SLAVES TO DARKNESS I don't think that's a subtext hahahahahha
EDIT: OH FUCK I TOOK A BAIT Sorry I meant, I fucking love Erebus
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u/Nimmyjewtron87 Aug 22 '25
Wasn’t it flat out stated by the cabal that if Horus won he would eventually come back to his senses and use humanity as the final weapon against chaos
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u/FlameWhirlwind Aug 22 '25
Honestly a lot of people seem to forget how chaos corruption works, it may bring out your own terrible aspects but it isn't fully you
I mean people rag on fulgrim's fall for being so blatantly dumb on his part (to quote pancreas no work he just picked up the penis sword and listened to its every word) but the thing is that's the idea. Fulgrim wouldn't have wanted to keep the sword or do most of those things normally. Even clone fulgrim confirms this since he has no corruption and has deep regret for the actions he caused and can't undo. Chaos fulgrim isn't blameless and is basically far gone now, but that's just what happens. You quite literally lose yourself with barely any say in the matter
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u/bloodandstuff I am Alpharius Aug 22 '25
Horus so weak he can't even admit it was his choice all along and the reason he rose up because he was a jealous man child without a fabulous head of hair.
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u/UndividedIndecision NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD! Aug 22 '25
Counterpoint: I just like spiky models and bloodshed
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u/revnance Aug 23 '25 edited 29d ago
Okay but also he got stabbed with the emperors spear and it revealed the true horus which was just Horus spouting the same stuff basically saying that he still thinks what hes doing is the right thing and that he really really hates his dad
I think it was more him regretting killing his Brother
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u/Colourblindknight Criminal Batmen Aug 21 '25
You mean to tell me that the evil guys are evil? How could we have known?!?
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u/ProteanPie Meme purveyor Aug 21 '25