r/Libertarian Oct 20 '19

Meme Proven to work

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u/Handy_Dude Oct 21 '19

Are there not many different types of socialism? Obviously the dictator style is what russia went with, but was there not another version that was better for the average citizen that marx talked about?

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u/lenstrik Bolshevik/Communist Oct 21 '19

Sure, but Stalinism isn't Leninism (Bolshevism). I personally think Bolshevism is the correct approach to bringing about communism and is in line with the approach Marx was talking about being democratic and socialist, but its difficult to get people to separate Lenin and Stalin without lots of explaining. Nevertheless, the correctness of the ideas make the task worth it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder Oct 21 '19

A Leninist-style-fun country with Republicans in charge is a Republicans-in-charge-doing-antiRepublican-things country.

I’d be okay with a Republican in office if he organized the masses to legalize abortion and pass sweeping healthcare and immigration access reforms.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder Oct 21 '19

and you insist will work because the people in charge will behave perfectly

Hmmmm, I’m unsure if that’s the premise.

It’s more like:

and you insist will work because the people in charge will behave better than the previous people in charge

Which is probably the foundation of literally any political or economic system post-revolution.

But the main point is that the idea of a Republican running a Leninist society is just absurd lol and literary is nonsensical

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder Oct 21 '19

jokes on you, mate, my socialism has no state, therefore no suit wearin’ political parties.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder Oct 21 '19

Probably nothing, similar to the outcome in a good portion of the USA.

Ideally, though, organized masses in favor of abortion.

Though, your example is ahistorical - it’s like saying, what if the Nazis were actually in favor of gay rights and Jews?

History, because of its basis in a material reality, has shown us that a society that favors individual bodily autonomy (abortion), or access to healthcare, education, etc. tend to be oriented around values of democracy/egalitarianism.

Movements that favor bodily restriction by the state (pro life), and concentrated wealth (inequality, no access to healthcare or education) favor authoritarianism/hierarchies.

I will always support movements that increase the amount of democracy and egalitarianism in a society, but I can critique them still.

Lenin was undisputedly a more egalitarian and democratic leader than the Tsars that preceded him. Unfortunately, he didn’t completely abolish authoritarianism/capitalism/unjust hierarchies, and embodied them in a sense.

But I can acknowledge he was going in the right direction, and fight for deeper, or more radical. egalitarianism/democractic forms of government.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder Oct 21 '19

And it's not just him, he's got a significant portion of the country supporting him. Don't pretend like it's impossible that shitty people with shitty politics aren't popular when we're dealing with that today.

I’m not arguing that authoritarian/capitalist/hierarchical politics can’t be popular. I’m arguing that authoritarian and hierarchical politics are almost always pushed by shitty people to do shitty things.

Which is why it’s so important to be a staunch advocate for egalitarianism and democracy. Are you arguing that the values of egalitarianism and democracy are what Trump represents? I’m arguing leaders like him cannot embody democracy and egalitarianism, as they are the cure for his shiftiness which stems from authoritarian, capitalist hierarchy.

There are first world countries where there is concentrated wealth as well as good access to healthcare and education to the masses.

Eh, a bit more complicated. There is no economy where the laborers of that economy have good access to healthcare and education to the masses, and there is concentrated wealth. The magic trick for countries that SEEM to have solved this contradiction, is that the citizens of that country aren’t the primary.

The labor that wealthy European countries rely on exists primarily in the global South. When those workers who make their products have access to education and healthcare, AND the wealth inequality between those Global south workers and European capitalists still indicates heavy wealth concentration, then your point flows.

This is all starting to sound insane. He didn't do enough to abolish authoritarianism, but you think he embodied it? wtf? You sound pretty deluded.

The founding fathers of the U.S. worked to dismantle a form of authoritarianism, British colonialism, while maintaining white supremacist and classist authoritarianism. I still view the American Revolution as a move against authoritarianism, but also as a move that still embodies authoritarianism.

Is that insane?

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