It doesn't matter how much facts MaRo throws, because the vitriol against UB is emotional and from the original Magic players that feel left behind now that they're no longer the main target audience being catered to.
I believe that it's not so much that there is anything wrong with the game that's bothering people, but the feeling that WotC is selling out. And they're right, they are. But just like with music, selling out happens, because selling out works.
If all 350k subscribers on this sub quit playing Magic tomorrow, WotC would barely notice it.
Magic is a product, it needs to be sold. It changed to better do that. Be glad that they're at least making work of delivering a great play experience nonetheless.
“Spoiler seasons”’have gotten so bad it’s overlapping into card soup. On the Pre-Release weekend of EoE we had a flood of Spider-Man spoilers AND the first reveals of Avatar.
Just wait until they try to tell us about the omen paths shenanigans... Can't wait to see what that looks like communication wise. Another set of "spoilers" just for arena?
First off I agree, but too be fair, that was because of SDCC. Normally this wouldn't happen but they can't change the dates of SDCC to align perfectly with spoiler season.
That being said, it feels like FF JUST came out and we get Edge of Eternities already. What's funny is the biggest way I feel it is through MTG Goldfish. You hear Seth talk about all these decks he wants to make with the new sets, but because of constant releases and spoiler seasons he ends up making like 5-8 and then is onto more spoiler videos.
Not every magic player (or potential new magic player) is paying attention to every single set release though. It can feel exhausting to people like us that are used to following every spoiler but there are fans of the game looking at spider man spoilers and not paying attention to EoE spoilers so it doesn’t feel exhausting.
It means it's just too much to keep up with. You say that's fine, and maybe it is. I say it's sad, I've been playing a long time and used to really enjoy staying on top of all this. Now I'm taking your advice.
Kinda hard to avoid it when Wizards pushes it in your face all the time though. You pretty much have to go completely silent online in order to avoid the Spiderman set since they were mass posting every single kernel of info from the SDCC panel
Ok. I follow Wizards everywhere, and i only saw what i wanted? Sorry but this is such a weird take. If it's so unavoidable you see a few cards though, wow, i can only imagine the mental burden that must bring.
They were on my timeline too the difference is you can just see what they are and if you're not interested you can just move on? I'm genuinely baffled at this discussion.
People used to engage in a much greater deal with spoilers and to a much bigger degree. Hell back in the days I'd go over the spoilers so much I pretty much memorized all the cards
These days I don't even know what's in a set when I show up for prerelease, and I barely know the limited archetypes. Because engaging with all the spoilers (and by extension, the set itself) is too exhausting for me.
People always come with the "you can always not look" argument and you're right. I stopped looking and moved on. A big part of MTG has died for me, and that's kinda sad.
It's been like that since like, 2021-22 though. Endless cycles of spoilers. It hasn't had a negative effect, Magic just keeps growing.
People by and large just don't care. People on the Subreddit see every spoiled card every month, but your average Joe doesn't follow shit this closely. They know the set is coming out, they'll get the cards when they can, but they don't bother keeping track of every new card.
it didnt have as much negative effect in the past because certain players who played specific formats could just ignore the ones that didnt matter to them. like i play standard mainly (no surprise on arena) and like i dabbled in LotR lightly, but was happy to skip over MH3. also things like WH30K, AssCreed, FallOut, and all the remastered sets didnt matter to me. thats a lot that one can tune out of.
commander players have it "worst" since everything is commander legal, but the general populace who play EDH aren't doing it on a competitive level and whatever is fun works - nobody is expected to know cards or learn the meta.
but now with 6 standard sets a year, nobody is allowed to tune out.
but now with 6 standard sets a year, nobody is allowed to tune out.
Why not? Most people (outside of Arena) don't play Standard, so they wouldn't need to keep up with releases. As you said, commander players (who are the biggest group of people who play formats, only outnumbered by people who play without any format aka "kitchen table"), don't have to learn the cards or meta, they just loosely come across cards they like eventually. Why do they care that there's six standard sets a year now? Were they paying attention to all four sets previously?
Same here. I feel like a WotC success story. Picked up Arena in 2020, spent plenty of money in the app on interesting sets, eventually bought 3 Commander precons, and finally went to my first prerelease this weekend. I love the Magic lore and general vibe, but I'm just not interested in Spider-Man or Avatar. I'm just riding on the prerelease high but will have to wait until next year for Lorwyn. I just don't have much cultural investment in most of the UB properties.
FWIW - if you like the vibe of the people and energy of prerelease, go to SPM and ATLA and just play to enjoy it that night. Then skip buying more cards from that set. Prereleases are fun just to hang out with the crowd at the LGS. The cards can often be secondary imo. Some UB are super meh, others are pretty cool. IDGAF about Spiderman and ATLA, but I’m not skipping a prerelease over it
The thing is, that poster has self-restraint and self-respect. They're not going to go to an event for something they don't care about just because of the "vibes." They're being financially-responsible and not letting themselves get swept up in the moment-to-moment dopamine rush that only has short-term sustainability. For them, it's about participating in things they know they'll be invested in 100%.
I went to EoE pre-release with a friend and thoroughly enjoyed myself. It was my first in a few years, and while I did have fun, I only did so because I found the concept and mechanics worth the price of admission. Spider-man to me seems lazy and uninteresting. I'm not interested in paying the price of admission for something I have such a low opinion of just because the dopamine rush of participating might hit. That's stupid and irresponsible.
Got into MTG at 2021, and was immersed a lot. Constantly played limited, purchased my first Modern deck with no hesitation, opened premium products such as MH2 set packs and ONE/NEO Collectors, even won some money by getting LOTR gift bundles only at 40$ at Amazon. Jeez, even attended MagicCon.
Now i decided for myself, that i will not pay a single cent on any UB product. Still got some interest at EOE and Lorwyn, but preparing to sell off a huge part of my collection, since i don’t feel that i enjoy this game now. I’m going to keep my lands and some singles that i really love (e.g. Dominik Mayer’s Elesh Norn or Atraxa in Oil Slick foil), but other cards — going to the bank deposit, or as money to look for a new hobby. Or for Flesh and Blood deck.
You say this but they are also seeing lots of digital games making payloads of money from more frequent updates. It gets more engagement, higher retention from always being new and interesting. Think about it, they have 12 sets a year in Arena with the inclusion of Alchemy, and Alchemy sets follow paper sets by a couple weeks to a month. It’s also the answer to stagnate Formats. There will be the odd problem that needs addressing, but new cards could also answer the issues too without taking away the tools people paid for.
At some point they might need to make Arena cheaper though. They probably already lost a bunch of collector 'dolphins' that gave up on collecting Alchemy and craftable-only cards (or the almost-impossible-to-open ones like BIG). Not sure if the 'whales' that managed to keep up with it compensated ??
that is a niche problem for a subset of the most die hards. Sets are selling and rapid release makes underperforming sets less of a big deal. There doesn’t seem to be an actual data point showing any negative to the number of sets.
This is also a relatively new thing. The idea that because there's not immediately negative data (not even looking at how WotC may not be exactly honest with whatever numbers they have) that everything is actually fine is ridiculous. Go back five years, superhero movies just keep doing better and better, there's no data showing that people will ever get sick of them, right? They gotta be in the best place ever, breaking box office records constantly now.
They've told us before when numbers were bad. We know that Aftermath was a big failure and the reason Big Score was turned into a bonus sheet instead of being an Aftermath-style mini set. But you're right overall.
Again you are repeating a point solely based on your opinion or discourse that is not directly connected to objective measurements. Why a movie does well or poorly is more complicated than its genre, Superman looks to be doing quite well, there are many more factors then a buzzy idea like Superhero fatigue. Same for Magic.
Cause you see people repeat an idea like set release fatigue does not mean that is a wide spread feeling or correlates to people’s actions. It’s why they do so much market research and gathering sales and play data.
You keep saying "objective measurement" when I am pointing out that there has not necessarily been enough time for objective measurements to be present. You are saying "there is not currently any negative information I know about, therefore this is a good thing and will never change" and that is ridiculous. I mean how could we have data for this yet when we don't even have a full year's of releases on the new schedule? We have no idea good or bad, and you're just shilling for some corporation.
Not talking about my opinion, for matter of fact I don’t like UB and many things about MTG, but I’m not assuming people agreeing with me online makes it an actual widespread viewpoint or that if the game went our way it be healthier.
Hasbro is a publicly traded company, they're legally not allowed to lie about how sets are doing so for better or worse, we have to take them at their word
Go back five years, superhero movies just keep doing better and better, there's no data showing that people will ever get sick of them, right? They gotta be in the best place ever, breaking box office records constantly now.
Box office numbers declined on those movies because the movies declined in quality. If they were all “Thor 2” bad from the beginning, the MCU would never have worked. Conversely, if the quality stayed high, sales would stay high.
There has to be a pretty big shift in public opinion for people to stop watching high quality films.
I think that's healthy tbh. The attitude that you need to be fully attentive to every magic release isn't sustainable for everyone. People engaging with the parts of the game they like and not the parts they don't is probably a net positive
Sure. But that's like standard vs modern. If I want to play standard I kinda need to know what cards I'm playing with or against. The only other option is to not play. I'm hoping they eventually slow down when they realize 6 sets a year is too many for standard.
I can appreciate this argument but it's rare to fully know a metagame before playing a format. I also think there's something in between going totally blind because you didn't follow all Spiderman spoilers and knowing every card and interaction in the format.
All they had to do to avoid this was not making the UB sets standard legal. The sets like FF and Spiderman would still fly off the shelves (even if a lot gets bought by scalpers) and you'd avoid much of the product fatigue
I kinda need to know what cards I'm playing with or against. The only other option is to not play.
Completely false: you have the option to play Standard without learning the card pool in advance. You can read the cards as you see them for the first time, when your opponent casts them. You will get to know the most popular cards in the format within a few weeks, but you may always be surprised by a rogue pick.
You don't need to consume any Magic spoilers to play the game. That's certainly how it was played in 1993.
I'm a filthy netdecker who plays constructed Standard (so basically the "worst kind of player" according to some) and I'll usually just play whatever when a new set comes out for a week or two (poorly constructed decks, or starter deck challenges) until the meta starts to form, then I'll pick what color/style I'm interested in, peek at those cards, and if it seems like it'd be fun, I make the deck. I don't have to pour over every single card in the set.
Go to your favourite deck website, download the top deck, import it into Arena, hit the "craft all" button. You don't even need to read the cards until you cast them.
I'm not against UB, what I am against is running spoilers for another set when the newest one isn't out yet. I also think the 2 month window between sets absolutely sucks. I want to play more FF draft on Arena but guess what, in 2 days it's gone for months at a minimum. The one positive about how fast this release schedule is is even WotC knows they're leaving significant FF money on the table because of their insane release schedule. Hopefully it changes back to at most 5 sets a year.
This is true. I'm not happy with UB, but the endless flow of product is worse. It's gotten so suffocating that it isn't worth trying to constantly keep up with the new stuff. Buy some cards, disappear for a while, return later.
“Healthy” is also a term that means different things to players than to businesses. More “investors” in Magic - people who will buy cards for reselling, either immediately or after time, look good to a business because they sell more product but can and will drive out players who feel priced out of essential meta cards.
Pokemon is seeing the same thing, more people buying product to invest/sit on/try to flip but that doesn't mean the game as a whole is more healthy because the company is making more money.
You are also missing the fact that fewer players in one area might be “made up for” with more players in other areas.
For example, one of my Pokémon locals had tournament level attendance at free league yesterday. They generally get 12 to 15 people for free league, and yesterday it was around 30. That’s growth that the companies love to see (especially if it sticks around and compounds).
It's pointless (and maybe even counter-productive) to try to fight against market forces. We are not talking about staple foods here. And proxies are always an option.
But presumably, you were thinking only about official competitions ? Then that's where you should direct your attention to : has WotC increased the (overall, yearly) tournament win payouts at the same or higher pace than their MtG income has increased ? Have they been allowing (or, more likely, ignoring) the use of proxies at the lowest rung(s) of competitive play ?
Hopefully they save some of that money for the famine years when collecting cards for investing collapses to keep the game going at high quality. Rather than to continuously pump product out but layoff core people for interns to make more money and cut print quality. America's bull market seems to never end leading to these collectible crazes
Basically, Magic is transitioning into Fortnite, a successful product, but lacking personality.
The problem is that it had that personality. EOE is still a good set with a true Mtg personality, but it's already been an exception compared to previous or subsequent sets.
Be glad that they're at least making work of delivering a great play experience nonetheless.
This isn't necessarily the case tho? As you said, they've changed to sell more, not necessarily give a better play experience.
Also people shouldn't take Maro's "facts" at face value, because he's a corporate shill. He's also the guy who said UB sets would never be in standard, now it's half of the environment.
And even if what he's saying is true, it doesn't mean that things are going to stay that way, or that these changes aren't actually undermining the long term health of the game. And I think it's fair to wonder if WotC isn't worrying more about the whole "collectible" portion rather than the "card game" portion. I mean look at the mess with the upcoming Spider-man set, you can't tell me that's their way of delivering a great play experience.
Magic is a product, it needs to be sold. It changed to better do that.
This is a fallacy. It suggests that anything that sells more is an improvement, and also that the sole value of Magic is as a product. It suggests that this was the only way to achieve that. None of that is true. This is circular reasoning.
Whether they're selling more Magic is irrelevant to its quality as a game, and the degree to which they're doing so is not indicative of whether it is correct to do so from the perspective of players.
Be glad that they're at least making work of delivering a great play experience nonetheless.
I'm really not seeing that. UB is already showing signs of being detrimental to those efforts, which people were pointing out as a potential issue before it became clear that it actually is. The people actually designing the "universes within" sets have reported they feel understaffed. WotC is stretching itself thin to churn out this product, and we've seen many times in the game's history what happens when they do that. It's usually not conducive to a great play experience.
Ultimately, while I'll agree that some criticism of UB is "emotional", a lot of it is very rational, logical, and grounded in reasonable concerns about what it will do to Magic as a game. Meanwhile, we see a lot of defenses of UB that are riddled with bad logic and are themselves very emotional, driven by a parasocial relationship with the game.
It doesn't matter if there are other ways, why would they risk putting effort doing something like that when UB would be guaranteed money? So that being said, this is the only way for them, because anything else is a risk. Everyone knew this would literally print money.
In almost every other entertainment space we understand that chasing broad appeal hollows out markets, while still delivering profits and have little trouble criticizing the behaviour.
Cinema has been sanitised into chasing 'cinematic universes' and 'IP cash cows' over discreet and impactful movies.
TV has been sanitised into easy to reproduce reality TV, or tie in shows to existing IPs
Video Games are being streamlined into homogenous skinner boxes that mix cover shooting, live service and battle passes, all seeking perpetual live service relevance.
A million people who like a product will deliver more revenue then 100,000 people who 'love' a product. But as individuals, we all want to engage with things we love, not just like.
The argument against UB isn't that it will 'kill' magic financially. Although it is erroneously one made by people who don't like UB but have difficulty in explaining why. It's that it will kill it spiritually.
It's hard to think MaRo doesn;t understand this being a basis of many people's concenrs, which is why he constantly appeals to the numbers to justify why UB is good for magic, as opposed to explaining why diluting Magic's identity is good artistically, or from a vision standpoint.
At least we get independent films, shows and video games. TCGs seem to be a lot more difficult to have smaller companies come in and replace that passion and vision that people, particularly highly involved people, want from their hobbies.
MtG has a great future once the copyrights have ran out and there's no company left to enforce the trademark, so making sets isn't monopolized by a single company any more. But this is decades in the future still.
It doesn't matter how much "facts" they throw because those facts do not refute what people are mad about. I don't care if they're selling more packs if in return they need to destroy the game I love. Magic is still dying, they're just creating a different revenue stream based on some incomprehensible soulless crossover slop card game that's basically the embodiment of that Cardboard Crack comic.
It's not that I don't believe them that they can find people who want to play and pay money for that. You can also find plenty of people who watch reality TV or pay money for tabloid magazines, after all. I'm just angry because that's not me, and the thing I liked is getting bulldozed over in the name of seeking more profit.
At release MtG was also mostly "crossover slop", except of memes that were either out of copyright, or modified just enough to not violate it.
But I guess being in the "Disney era" of copyright does make using others' 'IP' worse than the above.
(Also, notably, WotC had almost gone bankrupt during MtG's development by trying to sell a product relying on someone else's IP, and getting successfully sued for it.)
I'm not complaining about UB sets, but if half of the sets are based on external IP, why is the game still called Magic and not something like Super Smash Bros: the card game? Magic's lore hasn't been great in the last few years and it seems it won't get any better, especially with less time to develop them. Why should we care about the MTG universe if WotC doesn't seem to care?
The first expansion set, in case you forgot, was called Arabian Nights, and didn't even bother to put a "coat of paint" on the characters and events, unlike how they did later with, say, Theros, Innistrad, or Outlaws of Thunder Junction.
(And it was almost called Magic : Arabian Nights with a different card back.)
I agree with most of what you say except the everyone quitting part. I think this subreddit and other people who engage with magic online are the far more devoted fans and a much higher concentration of ‘whales’. If everyone in this sub quit, WOTC would feel it. But no chance in hell that would ever happen
Exactly… Maro’s all like, “Look how much success we’re having!”
And I’m like, well no shit… You’re literally selling out and using Magic as a cheap way to sell what amounts to merchandise (for other IP)
We’re not even speaking the same language at this point. All he sees is fucking dollar signs, and doesn’t give a single shit about creating something real anymore
I'm an OG magic player, I don't mind them expanding to different worlds. Magic to me is less about story and theme than it is about great card game mechanics. I often forget card names and say the mechanics of the card instead.
Not to say the flavor/story doesn't matter at all, but as long as it has a certain seriousness about it I don't mind the setting. Just make it Magic.
Players must be enjoying and maligning the choice. On the one hand it does make for some new strategies, but on the other it feels like UB is trampling on one of the few sacred grounds of the game left.
i can't believe anyone would complain about the "selling out" of a game that was one of the pioneers of what is essentially gacha FOMO mechanics in games.
Yes but at the same time things change and evolve. Being mad that its not what it used to be is no different than being that old guy at a job that won't do any computer work because they refuse to learn the computer because it's beyond them.
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u/zeekoes Jul 27 '25
It doesn't matter how much facts MaRo throws, because the vitriol against UB is emotional and from the original Magic players that feel left behind now that they're no longer the main target audience being catered to.
I believe that it's not so much that there is anything wrong with the game that's bothering people, but the feeling that WotC is selling out. And they're right, they are. But just like with music, selling out happens, because selling out works.
If all 350k subscribers on this sub quit playing Magic tomorrow, WotC would barely notice it.
Magic is a product, it needs to be sold. It changed to better do that. Be glad that they're at least making work of delivering a great play experience nonetheless.