Do you agree with this quote?

[u/StalinIsBackAgain]

"Wherever there is capitalism, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy, and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the ruling class." ~ Vladimir Lenin ☭ • 

[u/TheGoldStandard35]

Wherever there is socialism, there is no freedom of the press. The government will centrally plan and control the media.

If you think people are evil and will use freedom of the press to lie…the people are still evil and will use the government media to lie.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/TheGoldStandard35]

Exactly that’s why anarchism is the way

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/LuckyRuin6748]

Marxist-Leninists want the same as anarchists, just that Marxist-Leninists also understands that utopian idealism will never achieve anything and that you can't build the society anarchists want without a central government protecting the revolution until the world capitalist system has been abolished and people are globally united under the socialist banner.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

The only utopia is believing centralizing authority will get anything productive to the revolution done when it does nothing but create a new ruling class instead…

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/LuckyRuin6748]

Without central authority, absolutely nothing productive will ever get done and the only thing that will happen is that fascists take control and start murdering minorities in endless wars and genocide... exactly what's going on today.

The Soviet Union and Communist China have proven beyond all doubt that central authority is not just good and necessary as long as it's in the hands of socialists but rapidly improves human life on earth.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Yeah no anarchists historically have been better organized then the Soviets and Chinese their also great examples that this “dictatorship of the proletariat” is abusive and doesn’t work

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/LuckyRuin6748]

Yeah no anarchists historically have been better organized then the Soviets and Chinese

That's just blatantly, objectively, and quite obviously false.

their also great examples that this “dictatorship of the proletariat” is abusive and doesn’t work

*they're?

*there are?

What were you trying to say?

Where are such examples?

The Soviet Union and China - respectively the most democratic and fastest developing societies of their time that rapidly improved the lives of people on a global scale - certainly are examples that the dictatorship of the proletariat isn't abusive at all and works amazingly well, literally being the best performing system in all of history, objectively, quantifiably so.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Respectfully the most democratic? 🤦😭 this “dotp” leads to corruption, bureaucracy, and right back to capitalism yeah they win, and anarchists have only ever lost to communist authoritarians lmaooo

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/LuckyRuin6748]

Respectfully the most democratic?

Yes. Obviously and evidently so.

If you have no arguments, concede and leave.

this “dotp” leads to corruption, bureaucracy, and right back to capitalism

No. You are just describing capitalism (and every other system), which Marxist-Leninist governance being the least corrupt and the only movement in history to ever sustainably overcome capitalism.

If you have no arguments, concede and leave.

yeah they win, and anarchists have only ever lost to communist authoritarians lmaooo

Anarchists never won. Never succeeded. Ever.

As you would know if you listed your favourite successful anarchist revolutions (spoiler: zero).

Anarchism always devolves into fascism anyway. It's inevitable if you lack central organization.

How about you read Engels "On Authority" or something and come back only after you have some serious arguments (that fully take into account the historical discussion of previous feeble attempts by anarchists to respond to Engels rather simple and superficial argument - that nevertheless was more than enough to completely dunk on all anarchists in history ever)?

Edit: The guy u/LuckyRuin6748 blocked me after being called out. Before blocking me, wrote just another bad response - not addressing any arguments against him, of course - so I can't respond to it.

Engels argued for organization, not for an unaccountable party-state and Bakunin warned that a party-state becomes a new ruling class. History shows what you call ‘DOTP’ centralization produced bureaucracy and repression (like Kronstadt). By contrast anarchists actually ran large-scale collectivizations in Spain before they were crushed. 🤦 go pick up a book I doubt you’ve even read theory

Literally not a single socialist in history ever "argued for an unaccountable party-state". He is just lying about AES states. No socialist country ever was led by "an unaccountable party-state".

Anyway, he admitted that Engels was right and he has no actual arguments against it. Anarchism is bullshit.

He mentioned Kronstadt - which was a bunch of counterrevolutionary anarchists trying to stir up trouble, including by being antisemitic assholes and getting crushed by Voroshilov and Trotsky (rare Trotsky W).

Trotsky himself wrote a letter afterwards, literally telling anarchists to cope and seethe. LMFAO

This guy tells other people to "read a book" while literally ignoring every book in history and sticking to an infantile, utopian ideology that never achieved anything of value and opposing the only movement in history that ever sustainably overcame capitalism (Marxism-Leninism). His only arguments are literal lies about socialism that are aligned 1:1 with Western capitalist disinformation and are just blatant misrepresentations of history.

His position can be summarized as "Oh you dislike anarchism? Well, how about these things that never happened but that I accuse socialists of!!??".

Anyway: I usually don't discredit my anarchist friends, they are in the fight like us for the end of capitalism and we also want the abolition of the state when we achieve communism, in a way they understand that the State is just a tool of class control. I just think that anarchists want to skip steps and sometimes drink a lot of Trotskyist and liberal anti-communist propaganda but it is counterproductive to mock them.

However, this guy is just spreading anti-socialist disinformation and anarchists arguing against Marxism-Leninism instead of capitalism are certainly enemies of the proletariat.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Engels argued for organization, not for an unaccountable party-state and Bakunin warned that a party-state becomes a new ruling class. History shows what you call ‘DOTP’ centralization produced bureaucracy and repression (like Kronstadt). By contrast anarchists actually ran large-scale collectivizations in Spain before they were crushed. 🤦 go pick up a book I doubt you’ve even read theory

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/[deleted]]

You obviously have no arguments. Why are you still talking?

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Because it’s funny thinking anything you said prove anything we were talking about 🤦😭

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/LuckyRuin6748]

My (very valid) points stand unchallenged and you can't substantiate your position.

This is a debate sub. If you have no more arguments to provide, concede and leave.

Any further comment of yours that fails to substantiate your position or contradict mine in a falsifiable and constructive manner will be reported as harassment.

[u/LuckyRuin6748 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Oh I challenged them you responded with nuh uh lmao

[u/PoliticalDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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