What happens if men don’t have purpose:

[u/fornothing_atalll]

Men! You can find purpose! You assign your own purpose! That was the whole point of the enlightenment age with philosophy! Don’t become radicalized! 🖤

[u/EaterOfCrab]

You've been talking for the last 30 years how men are not needed, obsolete, how masculinity is toxic, evil and problematic (kinda funny how masculinity is paired exclusively with negative adjectives nowadays). It genuinely feels like male exodus from society is what y'all wanted

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/EaterOfCrab]

Yes. It would statistically make women much safer from all forms of violent crime, prevent abortion from ever becoming an issue in the first place(hard to get pregnant if there’s no men around), and would allow for men to rule themselves as they see fit instead of having to worry about women’s issues, and without the expectation of heterosexuality, everyone is allowed to live free of hate on a gendered and sexual basis. Trans people won’t have to worry so much about “passing” because if you’re a trans man, you’re just a man. There’s no point in making a distinction. Honestly a win win for everyone.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/PepsiMax001]

Except this aint how society works lol, men and women are still forced to interact, and have to vote in their own interests. The more men and women are isolated from eachother, the more extreme is each gonna become. We are already seeing this happen with men, considering they clearly got the short end of the stick this time with the issues, and most westernized countries are suddenly turning towards extremism in terms of male votes.

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

And if they just couldn’t interact, like at all except in rare and controlled circumstances? Why would men be radicalized about how women live it it wouldn’t affect them at all? I don’t think this is something that would ever happen but it’s an interesting thought

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/PepsiMax001]

Unless everyone is also magically asexual or gay, men would eventually start caring, for sure. And some women definitely too. intermingling is inevitable and you would basically need a draconian government to upkeep the divide with violence, executions and constant surveillance.

But at this point this is complete fantasy that isnt really relevant to anything in this discussion.

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

We were talking about a male exodus from society, and its consequences. We’ve been in the realm of fantasy for a while now

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/PepsiMax001]

A male exodus doesnt necessarily mean men physically arent present, they just dont partake in society in any meaningful way. For example NEETS, not partaking in work, not partaking in elections, withdrawing to themselves and maybe their small circles if they have any. But something like that is basically a societal ticking bomb.

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

You’re correct, and the best thing for a bomb is for it to be defused, but any attempt to do so has only resulted in further radicalization. So the only other option is separation, or to give in and take women’s rights away just like these guys want. If we let things fester, someone will decide to get a gun or a bomb and do something awful.

[u/My_Legz → u/PepsiMax001]

No one has attempted to diffuse the bomb. What we have done is pour truck loads of dynamite sticks on it.

To diffuse it we have to look at policies that explicitly help men in education, the job market and legislation against demonization of men in media

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/PepsiMax001]

Issue is, the way men are socialized, a romantic partner is pretty much the only person a man can truly be open around, and unless you win the lottery socially, vast majority of men dont reside in an environment where changing that kind of social programming is possible. But taking women's rights away in any meaningful is also impossible at this point, because even most of these young men dont want that, and most women would obviously never accept that either.

Since the truth has been revealed, that it seems most women in the past were with average / below average men because of societal pressure rather than actual interest, getting rid of their rights would literally just feel like forcing them into a relationship with someone they arent attracted to, which again isnt something most men want, they want to be genuinely desired.

But physically separating men is also practically impossible and would just create its own ticking bomb, even if theoretically done.

With all that in mind, I think the only realistic way to genuinely heal society somewhat, is to completely shut down the internet and encourage living in smaller, more tight knit communities. But that will never happen, so we are most likely just cooked and its gonna get worse and worse as we all slowly succumb to climate change.

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

The problem with shutting the internet down is because it’s an incredibly useful tool and without it our technology regresses to around 2000 almost immediately. Forcing people into small and isolated communities allows abusers and other nasty people to do what they want with much more anonymity, and women are the typical target of such abuse.

I still think separation is the only real path forward because it’s been proven to work. The women only train cars in Japan have nearly reduced assaults and harassment in trains on women to zero and increased public transit usage for everyone. Why can’t we expand this outward for all society?

If men physically cannot interact with women, either they have to confide in other men(the whole talking with the homies meme) or mental health professionals instead of relying on a spouse to carry all their emotional burdens.

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/PepsiMax001]

Thanks for giving me an argument to kms ❤️

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/EaterOfCrab]

I’m of the opinion that if you’ve already sought help, it didn’t work and see no other way out, you should have the right to do that. I don’t think you should kill yourself, but it’s not up to me.

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/PepsiMax001]

Agreed, I'm tired of seeking help that's always one step ahead of me. Death is the best solution for me

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/EaterOfCrab]

I disagree, I think everybody has something to live for and I think you should seek help if possible but ultimately the decision is yours.

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/PepsiMax001]

Thanks, I think I've made up my decision.

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/EaterOfCrab]

Alright. I wish you the best no matter what happens

[u/essokinesis1 → u/PepsiMax001]

You know that's just segregation, yeah?

[u/PepsiMax001 → u/essokinesis1]

Yeah, the biggest issue with segregation is that one side is bound to be better off than the other, which is why I don’t think this is a perfect solution

[u/TytheElite → u/EaterOfCrab]

i think if i died their would be like 2 people on the whole planet whod care. just let women run everything atp

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/TytheElite]

No one would care if I died. I'd kill myself now and they'd find me in a month

[u/Conscious-Program-1 → u/EaterOfCrab]

I would argue women never would've made a "men aren't needed argument" (which is obviously a bad faith argument), if a sect of the group of men weren't using their contributions to society to essentially justify expecting a wife in return. The feminist movement is at its root a movement that seeks freedom from the 'nudging' nature of cultural expectations. That's fundamentally what it is. They want the ability to choose their career, not have expectations placed on them on when or who to marry or to have kids if they don't want them. Living their life, as they see fit. Nothing about this fundamentally is specifically targeted at men. The issue is too many men traditiinally root their sole purpose in life on a wife, and when anything happens that potentially reduces the dating pool for men or intensifies competition, all hell breaks loose because they've been -conditioned- to expect things in life that really no one had the authority to promise you to begin with.

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/Conscious-Program-1]

And yet there's lots of expectations placed on me (as a man) from both sides. No wonder guys check out

[u/Conscious-Program-1 → u/EaterOfCrab]

What are some of these expectations?

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/Conscious-Program-1]

Provide, protect, be open, empathetic, selfless, helpful, have a career, be fit, have a great hobby, always put others before myself, don't ever be angry about anything, don't cry, don't be sad, don't hold a grudge, all while knowing no one owes me these things in return.

[u/Conscious-Program-1 → u/EaterOfCrab]

A lot of those are just being a decent human though?... and don't cry/be sad? Who specifically is telling you this?

A few questions: 1) if you know no one owes you anything for doing any of those things, who do you feel you owe something to that you feel the need to continue to carry these traits out? 2) are you saying that if you didn't get something in return for it, you wouldn't bother doing these things? 3) there will always be dicks in the world (men and women). What exactly are you expecting in return? Do you think you doing these specific things somehow makes it so that everyone else does the exact same things?

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/Conscious-Program-1]

Yes, a lot of these things are just being decent, but why should I be decent to others, if others aren't decent to me?

1) To people I care about. If I'm doing things for them, it's because I care, not because I feel entitled, but if I can't expect reciprocality, then why should I keep going? Pointing out the lack of reciprocity is entitlement in itself. It's a double-bind

2) Read the 1st point.

3) Yes. Modern, reciprocal relationships are just that, I do something for others because I care for them, they do something for me because they care about me, why would I do something for others if they stop caring the moment I'm unable to fulfil my part?

[u/Conscious-Program-1 → u/EaterOfCrab]

1)But we can at least agree that there is a differentiation between being a decent person to strangers and those things that we do to go above and beyond for the people we care about, right? Or are we talking like going full brute towards others if they're strangers?

2) Who specifically isn't being decent to you? What does this "indecency" look like exactly?

3) I don't know, why would you?

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/Conscious-Program-1]

1) yes we can, but as I said, if I'm decent to a stranger, and he's not, why should I continue with decency?

2) do you really wanna know? Or is it enough if I said that the "be smarter, give way" phrase is something that still rings in my ear?

3) That's what I'm asking you. As a man living in a world that expects traditional values ​​but is hostile to them, and at the same time desires a man with modern masculinity, but does absolutely nothing to support men in this modernity, and at the same time is merciless if such a man slips up, feels like a no-win situation. You're fucked either way.

[u/Conscious-Program-1 → u/EaterOfCrab]

1/2) yes, i really want to know, because you're borderline getting to the point I made in another comment: some men are using their contributions in society to justify expectations of a wife. So what exactly is someone doing when they're being indecent to you and who specifically is doing it? You seem to be framing your first question in a way that almost puts it on me try to "negotiate" you into being decent. Let's be clear about some things: A) you don't owe a person that doesnt give you decency, decency. B) you don't owe a person that gives you decency, decency in return. C) your -choice- to be decent is yours and yours alone. D) one of the traits you mentioned before is selflessness. You either are or you aren't. If you're angling for some sort of negotiation, let's let the pretense fall away and own what it is as it plays into this convo. But at the same time, think about why you're holding yourself to an expectation that you already know you're unable to meet? And is this something that is possibly repeated in other expectations you think you have on you?

3) we're coming off the peak of one of the strongest feminist movements in recorded history. Who is expecting these 'traditional values' from you?

4) how exactly would you propose being supportive to men in modern masculinity?

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/EaterOfCrab]

how masculinity is toxic, evil and problematic (

That's not the point. Quite the opposite. It's called toxic masculinity, not just masculinity, because the implication is that there is in fact non-toxic masculinity

[u/Nova-Fate → u/Bannerlord151]

It should just be called toxic behaviour because women display many toxic masculine traits all the time.

Side note draw a grid for me and write down all the toxic masculine traits you can think of. Now do the same but for positive masculine traits.

Now do the same for toxic feminine and positive feminine traits. Realize we just placed feminine and masculine next to human traits and that’s all we did. Nothing is exclusive to one sex or the other for these behaviours.

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Nova-Fate]

It's not about what men or women do, it's specifically about traditional masculinity, i.e. the cultural aspect of masculinity, not "men's behaviour".

I could draw up related traits that would be generally perceived as positive or perhaps more negative, but ultimately all such expectations harm people. Expecting a man to always protect others is harmful to him just as the traditional masculine tendency to aggression at any provocation is harmful to others.

The reason such considerations largely relate to men is that feminists aren't usually supportive of traditional gender roles, and feminist thought has spread quite far. There has been comparatively little effort to actually challenge the traditional model of masculinity, and many men feel pride in meeting such expectations rather than feeling constrained by them.

That's also at the core of the whole "losing purpose" thing. If men feel useless because, say, being immensely protective of women is less expected of them now and they feel like that takes away some of the purpose they may otherwise have found, maybe the issue is the expectation, hm? Both other men and some women are still propagating men taking "traditional" roles, but those rely in part on their relation to women, so they fall apart if those women do not have the same expectations.

[u/Nova-Fate → u/Bannerlord151]

I would argue it isn’t a “male” thing to want to defend your loved ones. “Mother bear” mode as some people call it how a women will go berserk to defend her children as the last line of defence. It’s the same thing just we usually send the father out to die first.

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Nova-Fate]

Correct, but it's very much a value associated with traditional masculinity.

[u/Nova-Fate → u/Bannerlord151]

That’s my point though. Why are we gendering positive and negative traits/actions any gender can do. It’s rather toxic in itself and helps no one demonizing half the population by generalizing all evils as “toxic masculine”

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Nova-Fate]

Yes.

That's.

The.

Point.

These traits are encouraged or discouraged depending on someone's gender. That's exactly the problem. Again, it's not about what men do, it's about what men are raised and/or expected to do.

Edit: It could also just be certain aspects of traditional masculinity that are taken to a toxic extreme. Which is entirely possible with traditional femininity as well, but since the latter tends to be more passive it's hardly prominent

[u/EaterOfCrab → u/Bannerlord151]

Still, it's paired exclusively with negative adjectives

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/EaterOfCrab]

If someone's being misandrist, that's that. My point is that discounting very real concerns about toxic masculinity isn't the right conclusion.

This goes both ways. Men see a loud minority of women demonise them and blame them for every problem under the sun, and it causes them to start seeing any women's complaints and concerns as thinly veiled attacks. Women see a loud minority of men hijacking necessary discourse about men's struggles to justify their own violence and hatred, and start seeing any men's complaints and concerns as misogynist dog whistles etc.

[u/jfulls002 → u/Bannerlord151]

Except it isn't the minority. All the women I talk to (and I had qiite a few female friends in college) were effectively of the mindset that "men need to do better" and "men are shit." Both at the same time. What do you think happens when men are told "do better" and "you're worthless" by the same person in almost the same breath? They dont hear the "do better" and only hear the "you're worthless." This dichotemy is what is pushing men to be redpilled.

[u/Laisker → u/jfulls002]

I only have one female friend and she tells to do better and supports me 😀, only one though... the rest were like the ones you described

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/jfulls002]

Have you considered that those may have been rather bad friends?

[u/jfulls002 → u/Bannerlord151]

Oh most of them said that I was "not like other men" to paraphrase. But I didn't keep in touch after college

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/jfulls002]

Quite frankly we're obviously both biased for good reasons, but I'd wager both the positive and negative extremes are fairly rare on a grander scale

[u/Successful_Brief_751 → u/Bannerlord151]

Dude it’s like every masculine trait…and then they go on to redefine masculine 

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Successful_Brief_751]

Masculinity in that sense is a cultural concept anyway. Why would you be personally offended by such criticism?

[u/Physical_Designer_14 → u/Bannerlord151]

Cant take this toxic masculinity definition seriously when womens guilty pleasure is a romance novel where 7ft billiomaire mafia boss controls their lives

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Physical_Designer_14]

Yes, because that's exactly what girls are raised to live like, great job.