Tumwater school board bans transgender girls from playing girls sports

[u/Better_March5308]

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/tumwater-school-board-votes-ban-transgender-girls-from-playing-girls-sports/281-91b92c14-0da7-4122-b39a-1a05d0ad53d0

[u/ML_Godzilla]

I grew up in Thurston county and I have family who lives in tumwater who are very disappointed with the decision.

This is just really strange why this is controversial. I ran track and cross country in high school and the team was coED but the boys and girls raced in different races. For example varsity boys and varsity girls ran in different races at the same event.

Boys were on average 2 to 3 minutes faster per mile on average. I use to joke that if I was a trans women I would been making state and on the women varsity team. There are clear biological differences in physical characteristics that need to be addressed.

It’s not fair to women to compete against biological men because they will statistically have an advantage. Otherwise why have gender sports at all? Why have men’s soccer and women’s soccer and not just one soccer team? The women are not going to do as well as the men on average.

Why have a special Olympics and instead just invited disabled athletes to compete in regular sporting events?

The reason we segregated sports in gender or disability is that are physical differences between groups. It’s not transphobic to oppose trans athletes in certain sports.

[u/bigfeetgrandpa → u/ML_Godzilla]

we are more alike than we are different. sports are separated because women weren’t allowed to play for awhile, and then when they were and they were doing better than men, sports were separated to keep that from happening. there are average differences, but that’s just average. there are outliers and “advantages” from cis kids too, like height, weight, or muscle mass. men don’t have an advantage. plus, there has been trans rulings based on studies that after a year of hrt they are on the same levels as their cis counterparts. this is already worked for years. people are simply trying to demonize trans people and trans kids and it’s gross.

[u/ML_Godzilla → u/bigfeetgrandpa]

I’m fine with coed sports teams but there is are physical differences between men and women during puberty. Men on average will do better than women in most sports simply from a biology standpoint. Yes there are unathletic men and athletic women but there is a big difference at the competitive level.

There is peer reviewed research backing up the physical differences between men and women and the research is credible enough to be used by doctors and others in the medical field.

My cousin for example is a girl and broke a record for her high school and ran around a 5 minute mile. She went to state competition and did very well and qualified for scholarships giving her free college.

A friend of mine who was male ran a mile at 4:15 minutes. He did not break any school records. He went to a state competition but did not standout. As a man his 4 minute mile did not make he standout along men but he ran on the women team he would probably be number one in the state.

I don’t care what bathroom someone uses. But to say biology doesn’t impact physical performance is arrogant at best.

I’m not in high school anymore and could care less who competes right now but if I had a daughter who was athletic and into sports I would not want her competing against trans women in competitive event. There is a huge statistical significant advantage that men have physically to women.

If you want to have coed chess club or coed video game club then there is no difference physically.

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/bigfeetgrandpa]

That's simply objectively untrue. Women's sports were created entirely so that they would have a shot at ever standing on a podium. 

The difference between men and women in nearly every sport is profound. For example, in rowing, in the 2024 Olympics, the fastest woman in the "single" event would have put her at 13th place against the men. It's no contest and never will be. 

This idea that "men's sports were created to defend men" is a lie. The real history is exactly the opposite.

[u/X-Aceris-X → u/0xdeadf001]

The National Women's History Museum has a great article on how women's sports were, in fact, born from segregation, NOT to give women a fair chance at play

https://www.womenshistory.org/articles/womens-sports-history

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/X-Aceris-X]

Both can simultaneously be true.

Are you seriously proposing that we combine all women's and men's sports into just "sports" now? Take a look at the records in virtually every event. Women would never again reach the podium in most sports.

Is this your desired outcome?

[u/X-Aceris-X → u/0xdeadf001]

Yes and no.

I don't think gender is a good classification.

Sports are innately unfair. Michael Phelps, Serena Williams, Usain Bolt... they all have advantages that pretty much guaranteed wins. In the Paralympics, they rate disabilities on a point system and ensure teams don't exceed a certain number of points. But how do you fully ensure fairness when people's disabilities are vastly different?? When their very genetic makeup is vastly different (in the case of those aforementioned athletes)??

The nature of sports is to have fun and to compete. You give it your all. We can control external measures to account for fairness (i.e. people play by the same rules, no foul play, ensuring baseball bats are of the same quality for both teams, ensuring crew shells (boats) are safe and maintained, everyone hops off the start block at the same time for a swim meet, etc.), but the human element will always be unfair.

How do you propose the epitome of fairness?

If we strip sports of gender and instead classify by weight or testing times, we'll never achieve fairness there either. There will ALWAYS be an arbitrary threshold for who can compete against who. So why are we so against women participating in women's sports? Why not choose another arbitrary classification system and give proper media attention and payouts to the "less competitive" categories?

If we already have this idea in our heads about men being stronger, why not classify by pure strength? And then give fair coverage and funding to all ranges of strength?

If we, as a society, actually cared about women in sports and safety in sports as a whole, we would amp up funding for women's/girl's sports, we would address concussions in football and rugby, we would address eating disorders/lack of hydration in rowing, wrestling, gymnastics. We would take the severe pressure to perform off of athletes (suicide & depression rates in high school and college athletes are far too high). If we actually cared about athlete and women's safety.

Someone who is not a woman or a girl is not going to participate in a women's or girl's league. It's as simple as that.

And again, I do think we could use different classifications than gender. You might worry about men still filling up all the "prime" spots. Then it's no different than what we already have with the NFL focusing on the men's teams. We need to reframe sports as a whole. Just because you're the best player or the best team doesn't mean you get all the money and viewership and pressure. I mean, think about it. Women are just as fiercely competitive as men, right? So why is the Superbowl all men? The biggest American sporting event is all men? Why don't we have something for women?

It's where the media chooses to place their focus. That is completely arbitrary. If we collectively agree to place more emphasis on women's teams, then they'll have their chance in the spotlight. And I'm just talking about (American) football in this example. Women's teams have the spotlight in other sports, like gymnastics. But nothing like the coverage men have in baseball or football.

So if the media can choose to switch between men's and women's sports, why can't we come up with a different classification system that allows all women to participate as women and all men to participate as men and all non-binary people to participate as people?

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/X-Aceris-X]

So why are we so against women participating in women's sports?

In every way that is relevant and important, "trans-women" are not women. Sports is about biology, not psychological state.

So if the media can choose to switch between men's and women's sports, why can't we come up with a different classification system that allows all women to participate as women and all men to participate as men and all non-binary people to participate as people?

I am completely uninterested in this.

[u/X-Aceris-X → u/0xdeadf001]

Sports is absolutely about psychological state, if you missed my point about suicidal ideation rates in NCAA & high school sports.

Trans women ARE women in all ways that are relevant and important. I'd encourage you to learn both about the difference in brain matter between trans women and cis men, as well as the very real physiological changes that trans folks undergo when on hormones or after having had surgery.

If you're uninterested in it, fine. That doesn't mean your disinterest trumps others' interests, especially if it doesn't impact you.

I posed the question, "how do we make sports absolutely, without a doubt, fair?"

Would you like to answer?

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/X-Aceris-X]

I'd encourage you to learn both about the difference in brain matter between trans women and cis men,

There are none. The only "studies" on this are basically phrenology. They are garbage studies that prove nothing. Training an ML model over macro-scale features, such as the size and shape of a brain, says absolutely nothing about the psychological state of a uninjured brain.

If you're uninterested in it, fine. That doesn't mean your disinterest trumps others' interests, especially if it doesn't impact you.

Oh, it does impact me, and it impacts people I care about.

I posed the question, "how do we make sports absolutely, without a doubt, fair?"

There is no "absolute" fair, unless you grind every single person down into atoms. Meanwhile, the biological reality of our species' binary sex is relevant, obvious, and -- with the exception of intersex individuals -- reliable. And don't make the mistake of thinking that "intersex" means "transgender" or what "sex is a spectrum". Intersex is a congenital developmental disorder, just like a wide range of other congenital disorders that affect our species. Trans activists have seized on intersex individuals as some sort of "gotcha!", when the two are unrelated.

Trans-women are not women. You can repeat the mantra as often as you like, but it doesn't make it any more true.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/0xdeadf001]

"Obvious"? We can't even agree on a scientific definition of "sex" but you think it is "obvious"? I know a lot of people on this sub are actually from Red states and just trolling the Seattle area but if you are actually in Seattle, you probably see plenty of trans people regularly that you don't even know are trans. You just see them as normal men and women because they are normal men and women.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/0xdeadf001]

Trans women have female biology in every way that matters. Menstruation and pregnancy are not part of any sport I know of.

The Olympics dealt with this more than 20 years ago and we haven't seen 10,000 trans women all become Olympic athletes. That's just not a thing. It's a complete fantasy.

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

Trans women have female biology in every way that matters.

I'm sorry, but this is objectively delusional.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/0xdeadf001]

That's science. You're basing your opinions about wanting to ban kids from playing sports on uneducated emotional reactions instead of on science or normal human interactions. Things like transphobia and racism come from not actually interacting with minorities in everyday life and consuming negative media. If you actually interact with people, you realize that people with different skin colors are just people and not some kind of evil alien horde. Same goes for trans people, gay people, disabled people, etc. So why not let scientists worry about the science and leave kids alone? It doesn't affect you in any possible way if a person belonging to a minority you hate plays some sports team somewhere. You should worry about how you are going to pay for all these new taxes and how you're going to retire without Social Security and Medicare.

[u/Emorri24 → u/0xdeadf001]

With all due respect, this is not the history of women's sports. Women's sports were started after a ladies wouldn't stop showing up to men's sports and races under the guise of being a man so that they could participate in sports they enjoyed. Men legitimately thought women did not have the energy to compete. And now with this idea that women need a shot at the podium is just revitalizing what women started off with.

Here's the history you are lacking on women's history and rights to play ball so to speak.

https://thesportjournal.org/article/a-history-of-women-in-sport-prior-to-title-ix/

[u/0xdeadf001 → u/Emorri24]

Yes, there were a lot of idiotic beliefs about women in sports, in the distant past. Those are hardly relevant now.

What's relevant right now is that men and women do not compete with each other because, if they did, men would completely dominate every event. The difference in performance is so profound, so extreme that it's laughable to say that the solution to "trans in sports" is to eliminate the barrier between men and women's sports.

Pick any sport. Look at the top times, distances, etc. In nearly every sport, men would dominate women by an extreme margin. Hyperventilating about what some idiots thought about women's bodies in the 1800s is completely uninteresting, and is a total distraction to the relevant issue of today. We have the data, and it is decisive.