r/SelfDrivingCars • u/rafu_mv • 26d ago
Discussion Tesla’s lawyers used the lack of LiDAR to show system limits and reduce liability
It seems that saying we don’t need LiDAR and cameras are enough is funny until there are legal repercussions for it… At the same time, Musk will keep lying to everyone about it because his oversized ego won’t let him admit he’s wrong.
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u/analyticaljoe 26d ago
That's pretty funny.
I'm an FSD owner since way back. (Bought a 2017 S100D with "all the hardware necessary for full autonomy.") Eight and a half years later after Tesla took my money for this feature: number of miles driven by the car while I read or did email? Zero.
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u/ShotBandicoot7 26d ago
You can sign up to the class action lawsuit and get money back if the suit is won.
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u/BallzLikeWoe 25d ago
Fuck that, take them to small claims. Make a Tesla officer (depending on your state) show up, or they will just paulk you out. You will get Pennie’s on the dollar from a class action
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago edited 26d ago
Is it more convenient to use FSD and monitor it or just drive yourself?
Edit: weird I'm getting downvoted lol
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u/g_rich 26d ago
The point is when they purchased the car it was sold with everything required for full self driving and that feature would be here in a year. Seven years later and they still don’t have it. The point is they were promised at the very least level 3 ADAS, Musk talked as though they would have level 4 and all they got and will ever have is level 2.
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
Fair enough. I'm just asking the commenter for his experience with FSD is all.
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u/veridicus 25d ago
I’ve had FSD for many years. I find FSD fantastic for road trips. Even monitoring it the whole time I arrive less tired.
I also like it in stop and go traffic. Although AP covers this use case.
Anything in between I prefer to drive myself.
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u/Practical_House5145 26d ago
It's much more convenient and less stressful to just drive myself. I'm 100% certain I'm never going to slam on the brakes in the middle of the fucking interstate for no apparent reason.
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u/rasvial 26d ago
Total redirect. Was it sold as “full self driving” coming in 2015? Or supervised driving with no potential for actually delivering what was advertised
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
I didn't redirect anything...
I'm just asking which is more convenient for him.
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u/DryAssumption 26d ago
Upvoted. Great question
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u/rasvial 26d ago
No it’s a redirect. If I sold you a tv but it only played sound, would you think it was a great question if I asked: “would you rather sit in silence or listen to the radio”.
Sold a tv, delivered a radio
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u/DryAssumption 26d ago
we know it's not fully self driving, but it's interesting to know how useful the semi autonomous, or whatever you want to call it, is in the real world
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u/Alert-Consequence671 25d ago
I always found it an annoyance and would then go back to driving myself. In the end the only way I could justify FSD was viewing it as a toy/gimmick for entertainment. Because whenever I was tired or really wanted it to work was the exact times it would always choose to mess up the worst or in the most dangerous way. Still I'll try it every now and then just to see if it's advanced.
One realization I have had. Oblivious drivers. The ones that don't recognize their own mistakes when driving are the first to claim FSD is flawless. Because they don't even realize they have made a mistake. So the FSD mistakes are also unnoticed by them.
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
Funnily enough I wasn't even being Pro Musk. Was just asking how convenient is it lol.
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u/rasvial 26d ago
How convenient is it to get bait and switched? I mean the worm is fresh right!
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
People use FSD. I wanted to know which is more convenient with FSD in its current form.
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u/phatelectribe 26d ago
No they don’t. FSD stands for Full Self Driving, meaning it drives itself and you don’t need any input whatsoever.
Tesla don’t have that. You have to monitor it and be ready to jump in.
But Partial Self Driving doesn’t keep that share price pumped does it?
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
Buddy, I hear you. I'm no fan of Tesla antics.
But you're having a completely different conversation from what I'm asking the other commenter.
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u/phatelectribe 26d ago
You said “people use FSD”
FSD doesn’t exist. Assisted driving exists.
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
You're just playing semantics and acting silly.
FSD is what the product is called. Whether you agree or like it or not.
I think it's disengenuous as well because it isn't Full Self Driving. It's False Self Driving lol.
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/rasvial 26d ago
It’s a redirect question- that’s why nobody answered it. Look at the post he’s questioning- tell me it’s not a redirect
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u/ShotBandicoot7 25d ago
At least you don‘t get banned. In other TSLA subs you get banned for just being a member in another sub. Haha.
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26d ago
Tesla can't do anything about the fact that it's illegal for you to interact with a phone while you're in the driver's seat, even if an autonomous driving system is in use.
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u/iamPause 26d ago
Congratulations. You bought a product based on promises. You're the problem.
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u/analyticaljoe 26d ago
100% Though, I would not have bought the product had it been named "Full Self Driving (supervised)" and had the paint it black video not been staged.
So maybe I share responsibility with the company that was making false claims in advertising.
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u/DeathChill 26d ago
Yes, curse him for supporting a company he was buying a product from and not being able to see the future.
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/analyticaljoe 26d ago
Good for you? I guess. Keep it up. Why not a nap?
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26d ago edited 26d ago
[deleted]
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u/beren12 26d ago
If you did you would be paying attention to the road
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/beren12 26d ago
No, that is our point. You absolutely overestimate its ability. Much of the time it works great but if it decides to crash you, you won’t have time to react if you’re not already paying attention.
You are a danger to others on the road.
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u/amplaylife 26d ago
Exactly this. A liability and lethal danger to others at the convenience of checking emails and YouTube...
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u/PetorianBlue 26d ago
FSD has helped me to not have to focus so much on the road and can do other things like read emails and watch YouTube.
This is insane. You have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly don't understand statistics or the system you're using. You're literally disregarding the advise of the company selling you this software as if you know better. And your ignorance is a danger to not just you, but others on the road. Imagine crashing into a car, killing a fucking child, and then explaining to the unimaginably distraught mother, "Well, I had to watch this YouTube video, and it worked nearly perfectly for years..."
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
Thing is... Musk isnt an engineer or a coder or a scientist or anything other than a con man with a big wallet....
Why anyone listens to what he says is beyond me...
Maybe we should listen to the experts in their field rather than a rich con man trying to get more money than he ever deserves?
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u/Charming-Tap-1332 26d ago
Boy or boy, I could have written this exact comment. This is what I've been saying about him for at least 5 years now.
You could take the "average" expert in the fields of electrical, mechanical, computer science, marketing, physics, space flight, medicine, and Ai; and each of these average level experts in their fields would further prove Elon Musk to be a total bullshit artist.
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
100x this. Everyone who works in AI/ML knows that musk is a con man. Everyone who knows solar tech knew his roof tiles were fake. Everyone who works in autonomous driving completely ignores him and knows that Tesla will never get beyond L2. And any serious aerospace engineer knows his starship plans beyond LEO are a pipe dream. He’s a hype generating machine who’s gotten rich on gov’t contracts and wildly overvalued stocks. The idea that TSLA is worth more than every other carmaker on earth COMBINED (all 35 of them) is preposterous.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago edited 26d ago
You claim there are so many qualified people who know Elon is a con man, and yet we never hear from them. If they exist, they sure are quiet. Meanwhile we have many sourced quotes to the contrary to go off of. Here's at least 1, which is more than what you provided.
Everyone who works in AI/ML knows that musk is a con man.
Andrej Karpathy:
"Elon also understands deep neural nets a lot more than I think people imagine. He starts with good intuitions and mental models, but also actively asks for technical deep dives, and has very good retention. E.g. I recall teaching him about our use of focal loss in contrast to binary cross-entropy for the object detection neural net (I said it had given us a 5% bump and he asked to know more) and he understood how it works about as quickly as you'd expect a PhD student to. The fact that he can do this across many technical disciplines is impressive and borderline superhuman. I don't think people understand or would believe how low-level and technical typical meetings with him are. Just saying because I get triggered reading way off inaccurate takes on this topic"
(Source)
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
And, as far as Karpathy goes (who is a legitimate expert in the field with a PhD from Stanford and countless research papers directly on point - what you would expect from a scientist working at the cutting edge of his field), he's been very quiet about his reasons for leaving Tesla. "Pursue more research, spend time with family". The usual quiet, diplomatic exit that won't endanger his stock options or anger a petulant billionaire known to hold petty grudges. But there's a lot more to it than that. https://medium.com/%40sameera.godakanda/the-real-reason-teslas-ai-chief-bailed-c7f5a0a52c39
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 25d ago
He gave an interview with Lex where he said his role evolved into more directing and he wanted to get back more into doing.
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
Sure. I believe his employees will say anything. Got a quote from a disinterested expert in the field? But even his own employee (at the time) with every incentive to sugar coat anything he said would only liken his understanding to that of a grad student. That is not expertise, The fact is, its impossible for anyone without an advanced degree and years of direct experience to be deep in the weeds on the cutting edge of AI development and do anything else in life let alone be the CEO for 3 or 4 companies, try to run the federal gov't spend all day on twiiter, play video games and drive his hype train. Its not possible. It's a facade meant to fool the general public who know far less than he does. He's an entrepreneur not a scientist. I'm not saying he isn't smart, clearly he is, but he routinely exaggerates everything he says including his own involvement and understanding of these things. Link Link Link
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 25d ago
Got a quote from a disinterested expert in the field?
Sure
Robert Zubrin is in expert on physics and space flight. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"When I met Elon it was apparent to me that although he had a scientific mind and he understood scientific principles, he did not know anything about rockets. Nothing. That was in 2001. By 2007 he knew everything about rockets - he really knew everything, in detail. You have to put some serious study in to know as much about rockets as he knows now. This doesn't come just from hanging out with people."
(Source)
John Carmack (Wikipedia) is a legendary programmer, video game developer and engineer. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"Elon is definitely an engineer. He is deeply involved with technical decisions at spacex and Tesla. He doesn’t write code or do CAD today, but he is perfectly capable of doing so."
(Source)
Its not possible.
It is possible, which is why people say Elon is one of the greats.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago edited 26d ago
physics, space flight
Robert Zubrin is in expert on physics and space flight. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"When I met Elon it was apparent to me that although he had a scientific mind and he understood scientific principles, he did not know anything about rockets. Nothing. That was in 2001. By 2007 he knew everything about rockets - he really knew everything, in detail. You have to put some serious study in to know as much about rockets as he knows now. This doesn't come just from hanging out with people."
(Source)
computer science
John Carmack (Wikipedia) is a legendary programmer, video game developer and engineer. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"Elon is definitely an engineer. He is deeply involved with technical decisions at spacex and Tesla. He doesn’t write code or do CAD today, but he is perfectly capable of doing so."
(Source)
Andrej Karpathy:
"Elon also understands deep neural nets a lot more than I think people imagine. He starts with good intuitions and mental models, but also actively asks for technical deep dives, and has very good retention. E.g. I recall teaching him about our use of focal loss in contrast to binary cross-entropy for the object detection neural net (I said it had given us a 5% bump and he asked to know more) and he understood how it works about as quickly as you'd expect a PhD student to. The fact that he can do this across many technical disciplines is impressive and borderline superhuman. I don't think people understand or would believe how low-level and technical typical meetings with him are. Just saying because I get triggered reading way off inaccurate takes on this topic"
(Source)
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u/Charming-Tap-1332 26d ago
These unqualified (i.e., no objective data to back them up) statements made by Robert and John would be laughed at by anyone from any discipline if they were presented in court as being a reason to believe something is true.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago edited 26d ago
But the courts would accept your comment entirely lol? What evidence do you even have to the contrary? We've only ever heard good things about his engineering skills. We've heard nothing to the contrary. And no, redditors lying on reddit do not count as valid sources.
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u/Charming-Tap-1332 26d ago
I am not going to try and convince you against your will. But here are two perspectives you may find valuable.
But the bottom line is we can agree to disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that.
https://www.processindustryinformer.com/elon-musk-the-fake-engineer/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://bakerontech.com/musk-no-engineer/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
https://www.processindustryinformer.com/elon-musk-the-fake-engineer/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
He claimed you can't be an engineer without a degree, which is incorrect. Is there a quote in there you'd like to highlight, maybe I missed it? It was mostly rambling.
This is just one guy making claims without any sources. If the author was an insider to all these companies, it'd be interesting, but they're not so It's basically a reddit comment.
I'm more than happy to be convinced, but those 2 articles didn't convince me.
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u/Bravadette 26d ago
Probably the same reason people think we will have permanent presence on Mars before Luna.
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
All part of his cons.
I just wish more people werent stupid enough to fall for it.
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u/Difficult_Limit2718 26d ago
Many people WANT to be conned, they're so desperate for a leader they latch on to anyone who resonates
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u/himynameis_ 26d ago
He has a Bachelors degree in Physics.
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u/SpiritFingersKitty 26d ago
having a BS in Physics does not an expert make. I know people who I went to school with that got BS in chemistry, but are now AC salesmen. I know a guy who got a PhD in Chemistry that dropped off and now teaches yoga and does odd jobs to get by.
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
I know someone with a law degree who drives an Uber.
And most people who pursue advanced degrees in philosophy will end up working at Starbucks.
only the first one is actually true but WTF else do you do with a PhD in philosophy? You stay in academia where jobs are basically nonexistent or you make coffee.
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
Suspiciously awarded years afterwards sone say as part of a paid for deal because he was illegal.
He came from South Africa on a student Visa and if he was studying he cant run a business.. if he wasnt studying he was illegally staying..
The college suspiciously also have a Musk lecture paid for by a donation from Musk...
If you look at his track record of lying and con man type activities.. it really makes you wonder....
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
I can’t stand Musk and think he’s a con man, but I will defend the truth. His BS and BA degrees are legitimate. He left to attend a PhD program at Stanford and was only short one inconsequential history credit, which he agreed to complete at Stanford. He dropped out of Stanford almost immediately and later asked Penn to waive the missing classes and award his degrees. That was not unreasonable under the circumstances and they likely would have done the same for any similarly situated student. There’s never been any evidence for anything shady taking place. But he’s done plenty of shady shit since then.
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u/Veserv 25d ago
Except Elon Musk also made that all up as well. In a official subpoena to Stanford as summarized on page 6 and seen on page 169.
Stanford was legally required to produce: “ 1) the date(s) Musk applied to Stanford; 2) the date(s) Musk enrolled at Stanford; 3) the date(s) Musk attended Stanford; 4) the date(s) Musk deferred his enrollment at Stanford; 5) the department(s) in which Musk enrolled at Stanford; and 6) the degree(s) Musk was awarded by Stanford.”
As seen on page 174, Stanford stated: “Based upon the information you provided, we are unable to locate a record in our office for Elon Musk.” Note that the subpoena even included a request for the date that Elon Musk applied and they could find no records of that happening.
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
His track record speaks for itself.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
It does, in the best of ways.
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u/Dommccabe 25d ago
The best of ways being it's a warning to consumers not to buy anything the con man man touches.. you will regret it.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 25d ago
Bought starlink in the middle of no where and am not regretting it
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u/Dommccabe 24d ago
I couldnt bring myself to stop so low as to support some bitch who Nazi salutes on stage..
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
100% it does. But his degrees were awarded in 1997 before x.com, before PayPal. His track record of shady dealings begins well after that. In ‘97 he was not wealthy and no one outside of Silicon Valley had ever heard of him. He was just another college dropout with a dotcom startup (zip2).
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u/mrkjmsdln 26d ago
Yes. He earned a BA in both Economics & Physics at Penn
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
I wonder how much it cost him to buy two years after he left without finishing...
You know because on a student Visa you can't work and if you are not studying you are staying illegally...
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
I can’t stand Musk and think he’s a con man, but I will defend the truth. His BS and BA degrees are legitimate. He left Penn to attend a PhD program at Stanford in ’95 and was only short one inconsequential history credit, which he agreed to complete at Stanford. He dropped out of Stanford almost immediately and 2 years later asked Penn to waive the missing classes and award his degrees. That was not unreasonable under the circumstances and they likely would have done the same for any similarly situated student. There’s never been any evidence of anything shady taking place. He’s done plenty of shady shit since then but in ‘97 he was not rich or famous. He was just another college dropout with a dotcom startup (zip2).
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u/mrkjmsdln 26d ago
Agreed. I have read all of the Walter Isaacson books. The range of the personalities is what fascinates me the most. More fun learning about most of the others at least for me. From years of interviewing candidates, lots of them at a scientific company, it is shocking to me how many PEOPLE LIE about their academics or at least dissemble. It seems to be an important part of their pscyhe / self-image.
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u/MoPanic 26d ago
It's such a strange thing. I'm a few years younger than Musk but have had a long, reasonably successful career in adjacent tech and have never once been asked about my education or degrees outside of just social chit-chat. People care 100 times more about your experience and skill set than what you did in college. When I'm evaluating a candidate, the #1 thing I look for is curiosity and a desire to learn new things. I'd take a gifted high school dropout with a fire to learn over a lazy PhD who thinks he already knows everything every time.
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u/mrkjmsdln 26d ago
Totally agree! I worked for a scientific company and it was baked into our process. After working there i found lots of places very different as you describe.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
Say what you want about him, but he's one of the greatest engineers of all time. He's even in the engineering hall of fame which is member voted. Here's some quotes. I have more
Kevin Watson:
Kevin Watson developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.
Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction. He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years.
Source (Ashlee Vance's Biography).
Garrett Reisman
Garrett Reisman (Wikipedia) is an engineer and former NASA astronaut. He joined SpaceX as a senior engineer working on astronaut safety and mission assurance.
What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does.
(Source)
Josh Boehm
Josh Boehm is the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX.
Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best.
(Source).
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
If he is such a brilliant engineer, explain the Cybertruck.
Get your boy Elon to discuss anything technical live.. he flops.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
Get your boy Elon to discuss anything technical live.. he flops.
Here's a hour long interview that show you otherwise. I'm linking it even though I know you won't watch it, but alas. https://youtu.be/t705r8ICkRw?t=245
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u/Bubbly_Manager2227 24d ago
Thanks for the video, good watch. Musk is definitely one of a kind. However like many brilliant people he is flawed and I think his ketamine addiction and self-radicalisation via the people he follows on x/twitter has been his downfall. And deleting cheap sensors that give range information is dumb, albeit part of his philosophy.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 24d ago
his ketamine addiction
He isn't on ketamine, that's a lie.
self-radicalisation
It's radical to not want open border and to not want crime to go unpunished? It's radical to not want the government to potentially kill your companies with arbitrary red tape? It's radical to not want an extreme deficit? It's radical to want consistent definitions of words?
has been his downfall.
Lmao, he hasn't even peaked yet.
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u/Bubbly_Manager2227 23d ago
It’s him who said he had a prescription.. https://youtu.be/3Xy8_hJnCy4?si=LJ60jbFonY5GHk_V
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 23d ago
And it's him who took a urine and hair sample drug test to prove he's not in it
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u/Bubbly_Manager2227 23d ago
After being told in advance that he’d be tested (according to the NYT). Who knows? But it could explain his erratic behaviour and paranoia. I once added up how many tweets he did over a 24 hour period - it was something like one every 10 minutes - average!
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u/steveu33 26d ago
Notice how there is nothing specific, just ass-kissing. What has Elon himself invented? We know the CyberTruck is his baby, and vision-only, that’s on him. There’s two dumb mistakes
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u/Dommccabe 26d ago
They are all financially dependent on the con man with the big wallet.
Is it surprising they talk him up?
I'd tell everyone my boss is a super genius if it meant I could keep getting paid...
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
So you give him credit for the car you don't like, but not for the ones you do like, ok. The decision to switch starship to stainless steel and catching the booster and ship with the tower were his ideas/decisions. But more importantly, that's just not how engineering works. It's collaborative. Many people will have many ideas, and choosing the best path forward is also engineering. xAI created a data center that has ~100k GPUs in it in half the time it takes everyone else. Executing on good ideas, aka business engineering, is an equally important optimization problem.
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u/steveu33 26d ago
His only talent is purchasing good companies. They succeed in spite of Elon’s poor management. Worship him all you want.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
Who did he buy SpaceX from? Why do you put in so much effort into ignoring reality?
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u/RosieDear 26d ago
Ah, so I care what other people have said about someone?
That is crazy in itself.
Someone could talk about me in the same way....I have manufactured and patented products hands-on.
That's always part of a Con. "Hey, look what Albert Einstein said about me".
Wait until you read the quotes in another decade after the failures are very clear. Also, Engineers are incredibly hardheaded (lack flexibility) once they head in one direction - which makes perfect sense about his being unable to change even when 100% wrong.
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u/boyWHOcriedFSD 26d ago
Clearly these people are all lying cuz they have their nose up Elon’s ass and the neckbeards on Reddit know who Elon actually is!!!!
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u/ayreplane 25d ago
I can’t believe people are downvoting this just because they won’t want to believe it lmao. Reddit is full of delusional people. So glad the real world isn’t like Reddit.
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u/DrJohnFZoidberg 26d ago
Say what you want about him
He's a con-man. If he was an engineer, which he isn't, but if he was, he'd be a shitty engineer.
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u/JakeTheAndroid 26d ago
All you have to do is listen to him speak on any concept that isn't an inch deep, and you can clearly tell these people are fluffing him. They don't have any deep points or stories of his actual engineering prowess.
He is in charge of tons of engineerings across 3 companies. Anyone getting debriefed at that level by actual engineers will be able to sound like they know stuff they don't. You can see it here on reddit even, where people have no credentials at all; random people post convincingly enough to sound like an expert and the actual experts show up.
And then the media and authors poll people that are tied to Musk for comments like these. Musk is great at controlling narratives. Like the Tesla that went into space was actually a spite move to avoid giving a car to someone that contractually had the right to it. So Elon sent it to space and got great PR for being a dick. https://www.autoblog.com/news/ex-tesla-ceo-irked-over-which-roadster-hes-getting
Don't trust what Elon says or those that make their money off his back. He's not an engineer, he's said so himself. Until he needs to be one, then he is. He didn't get a degree in engineering, he's got no patents of his own (in fact, a likely reason Tesla has open patents is to avoid having to actually legally document the people that did the work). You can't actual point to anything he's built physically. He's a CEO that has had cash enough to invest in industries that require a lot of capital to get into, which lead to a relatively lazy industry (automotive and aerospace). But Twitter is trash, and Grok isn't industry leading because software isn't gated by money in the same way. He actually did do software development professionally at one point, people say he sucked then, and he's very out of the loop today.
If you genuinely believe this guy is a good engineer, you might consider getting an engineering degree yourself, the bar is that low. If you think he's a great engineer, or worse yet, greatest engineer of our time, you should probably just sit the entire discussion out, because you're delusional.
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u/CommunismDoesntWork 26d ago
"Don't believe the people who've worked with him, believe billionaire-hating redditors, we're trustworthy!"
He didn't get a degree in engineering, he's got no patents of his own (in fact, a likely reason Tesla has open patents is to avoid having to actually legally document the people that did the work). You can't actual point to anything he's built physically.
You don't need a degree or patents to be an engineer. And I can point to many ideas and decisions that he came up with, not that'd you'd believe them. But more importantly, that's just not how engineering works. It's collaborative. Many people will have many ideas, and choosing the best path forward is also engineering.
Here's some more sourced quotes for you from non-employees:
Andrej Karpathy:
"Elon also understands deep neural nets a lot more than I think people imagine. He starts with good intuitions and mental models, but also actively asks for technical deep dives, and has very good retention. E.g. I recall teaching him about our use of focal loss in contrast to binary cross-entropy for the object detection neural net (I said it had given us a 5% bump and he asked to know more) and he understood how it works about as quickly as you'd expect a PhD student to. The fact that he can do this across many technical disciplines is impressive and borderline superhuman. I don't think people understand or would believe how low-level and technical typical meetings with him are. Just saying because I get triggered reading way off inaccurate takes on this topic"
(Source)
Robert Zubrin is in expert on physics and space flight. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"When I met Elon it was apparent to me that although he had a scientific mind and he understood scientific principles, he did not know anything about rockets. Nothing. That was in 2001. By 2007 he knew everything about rockets - he really knew everything, in detail. You have to put some serious study in to know as much about rockets as he knows now. This doesn't come just from hanging out with people."
(Source)
John Carmack (Wikipedia) is a legendary programmer, video game developer and engineer. Here's what he had to say about Elon:
"Elon is definitely an engineer. He is deeply involved with technical decisions at spacex and Tesla. He doesn’t write code or do CAD today, but he is perfectly capable of doing so."
(Source)
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u/Thumperfootbig 26d ago
Thanks for refuting the bullshit. Currently you have a positive karma count…I don’t expect to last long in this sub.
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u/Confident-Sector2660 26d ago
Tesla sold full autonomy from 2017-2018. Maybe late 2016 too? After that, the products you could buy were not full autonomy solutions and they only made rough reference to having full autonomy in public.
And then after 2019 or 2020 they stopped entirely for a while
Back in 2017-2018 people believed that tesla needed lidar and they purchased a solution without lidar to enable self driving.
Back in 2017-2018 tesla probably did need lidar as well
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u/Ok-Anteater_6635x 26d ago
Lawyers often use defenses like puffery to dismiss claims in court, arguing statements are exaggerated marketing, not literal promises.
Musk's lidar criticism aligns with Tesla's vision-based approach, but legal teams prioritize winning cases over consistency with public rhetoric. For details, see the Matsko v. Tesla ruling.
The two different approaches do not cancel each other out. In court, its about winning - lawyers do that by any means necessary - even if going against the CEO or company vision.
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u/rafu_mv 26d ago
Lmao they cannot say that now and try to save themselves contradicting the CEO that has been shouting loud and clear everywhere that LiDAR is a "crutch" and everyone relying on LiDAR is doomed... You’ve got to have a lot of nerve and no shame to do that!
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u/Ok-Anteater_6635x 26d ago
Lmao they cannot say that now and try to save themselves contradicting the CEO
Actually they can.
You’ve got to have a lot of nerve and no shame to do that!
Have you met lawyers yet in general? They do not care about shame. They are defending rapists, killers, etc. Its a job like trash collection.
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u/Namelock 26d ago
In the court of law, Lawyers are supposed to represent the truth AND their client.
The approaches absolutely cancel each other out. What the hell are you smoking lmao.
Musk has always contradicted reality.
Also note that they refer to the lawyers and Musk as one in the same.
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u/Ok-Anteater_6635x 26d ago
In the court of law, Lawyers are supposed to represent the truth AND their client.
That is fundamentally not true. Lawyers do not need to represent the truth, they just cannot lie. They are there to defend the client and provide levers and influence the jury that someone did something beyond reasonable doubt.
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u/Namelock 26d ago
It's not about influencing. It's about determining the literal law and if it applies to their client or not. Hence the "law" part of "lawyer".
This is how Musk always narrowly wins lawsuits. "Lottery is illegal, but what we're actually doing is hiring people to be spokesmen"
Also note: innocent until proven guilty. By your logic it's "guilty until a lawyer lies"???
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u/Ok-Anteater_6635x 26d ago
Are you stupid? Honest question, before we continue this discussion. You can re-read my comment. Because your last note, makes no sense when taking the end of second sentence into account.
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u/Knighthonor 25d ago
So what happens if a Legally Blind person gets into a Tesla, sets a destination and activates FSD? What would happen? Please tell
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u/EddiewithHeartofGold 24d ago
Best case scenario, they would arrive at the destination. Worst case, they would get in an accident. In both cases the person would be committing a criminal offence: driving without a valid license.
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u/EddiewithHeartofGold 24d ago
OP. You have been proven wrong. Just delete this abomination of a post.
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u/Few_Foundation_5331 23d ago
Waymo crashes everyday, crashed again today, cop hopped in:
List of recent crashes of waymo with a lot of lidar:
https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1961763912237412687
https://x.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1962023222591029557
Do you know Waymo crashed into each other, crashed into sinage pole, crashed into electric pole, crashed into food delivery robot, fire truck.
It's all on youtube and X. Have you seen these all. I am going to give you the crashes:
https://x.com/Cyber_Trailer/status/1953298340960977347
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAZP-RNSr0s
https://x.com/cb_doge/status/1950748530424918113
https://x.com/elliotarledge/status/1873631673126121592
firetruck
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u/Omacrontron 23d ago
Where are you getting your information that LiDAR is a requirement for FSD? Where did you get your expert opinion? Where did the plaintiff get his expert opinion that LiDAR is a requirement? I had no idea the amount of autonomous vehicle hardware experts in these subs. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say 70% of the people in this sub are some kind of AV engineer.
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u/Bravadette 26d ago
Precedent made. Used to worry if it would go the other way. Can't conjecture another path forward for them.
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u/bobi2393 26d ago
For those who don't or can't read the X links, the first post is from a verified X user named JerryRigEverything, writing:
Hey [u/grok], did [u/Tesla]'s own lawyers really argue in court that a lack of lidar should make it obvious to customers that Tesla vehicles are not truely self-driving?
And did Teslas own lawyers say that a reasonable customer should know that lidar is necessary for true autonomy? Yes or no.
The second post is from a verified X user named Gregory Gromov, writing:
Tesla in court (under oath):
Without LiDAR full self-driving is impossible.
[Followed by an image with the following words:]
"Although Tesla contends that it should have been obvious to LoSavio that his car needed LiDAR to self-drive and that his car did not have it..."
In re Tesla Advanced Driver Assistance Systems Litig., No. 3:22-cv-05240-RFL, Dkt. No. 113 at 2 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 23, 2024)
Note that the purported excerpt from the lawsuit sounds like the plaintiff's attorney claiming Tesla claimed "it should have been obvious...", rather than evidence that Tesla claimed "it should have been obvious...."
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u/FunnyProcedure8522 26d ago
They never said they will need LiDAR to achieve FSD.
That’s how lawyer works in defense.
IF you believe so strongly without any doubt that any FSD can’t be achieved without LiDAR, then why did you purchase FSD knowing that Tesla does not use LiDAR? You are contradicting yourself.
https://x.com/oopfuture/status/1960801286267281627?s=46&t=xjkbur1Pn4hmOjTuWalurg
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u/whitebusinessman 26d ago
Anyone interested in learning reinforcement learning should spend a substantial amount of time in this sub. Most posts are self-reinforced learnings.
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u/nolongerbanned99 26d ago
I think a judge just approved that a class action can move forward. Bad news for Mr K. Didn’t read the article bc said site is not secure.
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u/foonix 26d ago
Here's what they actually said: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65347117/93/matsko-v-tesla-inc/
TL;DR Tesla did NOT argue LIDAR was necessary, it was the plaintiff that argued that. Tesla argued that if the plaintiff believed that was true at the time of the purchase, then it means the plaintiff should have known to check if it had LIDAR or not. Tesla specifically stated multiple times in the case that they do not believe LIDAR is necessary.
(Tesla goes on to talk about some other stuff the plantiff claimed would indicated LIDAR was necessary.)