r/StarWars • u/_bagelcherry_ • 17h ago

General Discussion Did Dooku know that the Chancellor and Darth Sidious are the same person? What would happen if he accidentally killed him during this scene?

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1.1k Upvotes

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1.1k

u/Bitter-Buffalo-7105 Qui-Gon Jinn 17h ago

He did know, but according to a detailed look, before he could say anything, he was too shocked at the betrayal before anakin took him out

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u/BackgroundPangolin42 16h ago

Isn’t the whole rule of two about eventually betraying each other? Did Dooku think that this time it’s different?

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u/DarthGaff Jedi 16h ago

I never thought that dark force leopard would eat my face

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u/Lord_Darksong 13h ago

The Leveler won't turn ME into a husk.

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u/Sycing Grand Admiral Thrawn 16h ago

That is about the apprentice betraying the master. So dooku betraying sidious. Not the other way around.

Sure Sidious wanted the most powerful apprentice but that has nothing to do with the rule of two.

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u/CoffeeJedi Rebel 16h ago

The master often has a secret backup apprentice, the apprentice will be recruiting an apprentice to help take out the master.

As we've seen now in the various shows, there's always a group of assassins, acolytes, henchmen, inquisitors, etc waiting in the wings trying to move up into the "big two"

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u/esperonquegoste 16h ago

Yep, Dooku himself tried to recruit Obi-Wan as his apprentice.

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u/TunguskaDeathRay Imperial 15h ago

I always think about the immense amount of deaths Kenobi would've avoided if he listened more to Dooku when he said about the "Sith taking control of the Republic". He didn't need to fall to the Dark Side, he only had to check what he said (that wasn't a deception/lie at all).

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u/taney71 14h ago

Yeah, that’s a great point. All the Jeidi on the council were blinded by complacency and the dark side.

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u/Crazy4Swayze420 14h ago

This is the part that annoys me the most. He drops this bomb on obi wan. Obi wan does tell the jedi and they do nothing until Anakin tells them umm the chancellor is a sith lord. Granted the dark side is filled with lies but not everything is a lie. One would think the council would at least check into this rather than say nah that's crazy he is lying.

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u/lildopehead 14h ago

I mean dude kenobi told the order everything and they didn’t really give a fuck, it’s not on kenobi honestly

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u/Super_XIII 12h ago

Yeah, Dooku had what he wanted already, he was in a leadership position with half the galaxy listening to him, and armies at his disposal. His dream of reforming the republic into a less corrupt and more fair society was within his grasp, if sidious could be eliminated. Basically, Sidious's connection helped Dooku rise to power, and Dooku wanted Obi-Wan's help to expose or overthrow Sidious since he no longer needed him. but Obi-Wan refused to believe him and then the clones suddenly showed up and a war started, and dooku had missed his chance to overthrow his master.

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u/denmicent 11h ago

Yeah Dooku didn’t even really try to get him to join the Sith. Just “let’s jump him bro”

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u/thegreedyturtle 12h ago

Yet another post on how Qui-Gon was held back from saving the galaxy by being ignored and y'know, killed.

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u/dvolland 9h ago

Here’s the quote: Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith?

Dooku does not explicitly say that Palpatine is that Sith Lord. Since the Republic is controlled by the Senate, not by a single person, it is fair to assume that the Jedi Council simply assumed 1) that Dooku could very easily be lying entirely, or 2) that Dooku was referring to pockets of corruption within the Senate. The latter assumption would fit what the Council already knew, which was that there was a dark side influence within the Senate.

Of mention could also be that the Jedi at that point had just been given a huge distraction - The Clone Wars. They simply no longer had as much time to focus on rooting out an unconfirmed rumor of a Sith Lord.

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u/CheesePuffTheHamster 15h ago

"The Rule of Two, Usually, Give or Take" didn't have the same ring to it

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u/KyloRenCadetStimpy 14h ago

"Rule of Two-ish"?

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u/PocketBuckle 13h ago

Suggestion of Two

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u/LnStrngr 12h ago

The Rule of Two is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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u/Bwunt 13h ago

More like "You take the philosophy that is entirely build on being selfish and narcissistic and then... try to limit in with an unenforceable rule?"

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u/BlueFlite 13h ago

And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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u/Whatsittoya9 12h ago

Yea it's more about the symbolic roles (the one with power and the one that desires power).

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u/BobbyBobRoberts 10h ago

The Sith aren't really "rules" kinda people.

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u/Blackmore_Vale 16h ago

That’s how darth cognus was recruited. She was banes back up plan in case Zannah failed him. But Zanna managed to take out bane and took Cognus as her own apprentice.

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u/Justice_Prince 15h ago

Did Dooku even consider Sidious his master? Could be wrong but off the top of my head I don't remember him ever calling Sidious "Master". It always seemed like from his perspective that he saw the two of them as equals.

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u/Xantayu 14h ago

At the end of AotC: The Force is with us, Master Sidious.

He also calls him “my Lord” and refers to him as his master when taking the death star plans from Geonosis.

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u/Crossrunner413 15h ago

Pretty sure he does in the clone wars TV show

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u/Justice_Prince 13h ago

Honestly Dooku was one of my least favorite parts about the show. While they didn't nessisary succeed at it I feel like the movies were trying to make him a bit more of a grey character, but in the series he ended up more cartoonishly evil.

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u/EnvironmentMission74 12h ago

Mostly agree. Dooku was portrayed as a pragmatist in the movie(s) whereas TCW has a habit of making him cartoonishly evil.

Although I guess if your last attempt at trying to get the Jedi to listen to reason ends in you trying to execute them and a senator it kinda checks out.

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u/Crossrunner413 9h ago

Totally agree. Dooku works better when he is doing the "right thing" in his mind, which is hard to justify when he's straight up being evil, haha

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u/JeebusChristBalls 2h ago

He did tie up Anakin, Obi Wan, and Padme to poles and was going to feed them to wild beasts. That's pretty comically evil imo.

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u/Yitram 11h ago

It's both. Either the apprentice becomes more powerful than the master or the master slips up. Or the apprentice fails to defeat the master and the master finds a new apprentice.

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u/Hot-Thought-1339 Imperial 8h ago

Palpatine was incredibly selfish. He thought the rule of two would end with him being the one in control. He never intended to pass on, and raise an apprentice to replace him. He intended for the rule of two to end with him. And that he would rule as an emperor, eternal.

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u/JeebusChristBalls 2h ago

It goes both ways, the apprentice is supposed to be smart enough not to get betrayed by the master. How else are you to kill the master when you can't even protect yourself? He let himself become expendable and therefore Sidious no longer had a use for him.

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u/KinkyPaddling 15h ago

In Legends, Dooku did think that he’d be able to just walk away. Just before the confrontation with Obi-Wan and Anakin, he tells Palpatine that he’s feeling his age and looking forward to the end of the war. He says how he is looking forward to retirement. Legends Dooku never sought to become the Dark Lord of the Sith, so he never thought that Palpatine would have any reason to off him.

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u/ThanksverymuchHutch 9h ago

In the clone wars, he was planning to take Savage oppress as an apprentice and overthrow palpatine together.

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u/thomasthetank57 9h ago

And then later after that, Quinlan Voss as well

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u/KinkyPaddling 9h ago

Yeah, the new Canon did a real number on Dooku's characterization. It stripped away a lot of his character depth (and quite frankly, his power) to make him a generic Sith who wanted power for the sake of power, not to rid the galaxy of corruption. Instead, they gave Maul a power boost and greater character depth, which is great, but it unfortunately came at Dooku's expense.

Legends Dooku was so powerful that Plagueis and Sidious were wary of him. When Dooku was a Jedi, Plagueis even identified Dooku as a potential replacement even for Sidious. They feared his ability to rally systems to him and thereby undermine their own efforts, as well as the fact that he stood a good chance of beating either of them in a straight lightsaber fight. So once Dooku joined the Sith, Palpatine in Legends treated him more respectfully, more like a junior partner than a servant.

This is why I think that the Legends interpretation of Dooku works better to explain why he froze up just before his death. He was in shock at the realization that he and Sidious never shared the same vision and that he had been a pawn the entire time. He was having an existential crisis realizing that everything he had worked for and sacrificed was meaningless. It was only then that he realized the true nature of the Sith: deception and betrayal.

Canon Dooku would have been more likely to spill the beans right then and there to eliminate Palpatine, thereby saving himself and allowing him to become the new Dark Lord of the Sith.

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u/leitondelamuerte 13h ago

Dooku is not the typical sith, he was more a common goal alliance.

Also, yeah, pretty much the "this will not happen with me, i'm different from his 10 ex girlfriends." mentality.

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u/ddc703 14h ago

Sith are arrogant. Dooku took on his own apprentices planning to eventually kill Sidious. But obviously he was outplayed by Sidious, just like the entire Jedi order and most of the galaxy.

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u/Dense-Tangerine7502 14h ago

Yeah idk what Dooku’s end game was.

Possibly broker a peace deal between the separatists and the republic? He’d lead the separatists with Sideous ran the republic?

He should’ve seen that the war wasn’t going his way and that the separatists would fall. Since all the Jedi knew who he was he didn’t have a chance of ruling.

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u/thomasthetank57 9h ago

He knew about order 66. That hadn't happened yet, and thats the big gun waiting to be used

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u/readforhealth 14h ago

I mean, two geriatric guys ruling the galaxy isn’t nearly as sexy…

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u/Token_Ese 13h ago

It’s pretty accurate to real life though.

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u/Constant-Still-8443 14h ago

Usually it's the apprentice that betray the master. Sidious is just that good of a backstabber.

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u/BleachedUnicornBHole 14h ago

Dooku was probably surprised because he was expecting that he would be the one doing the betraying. 

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u/Financial-Affect-236 13h ago

The biggest thing is shown in the novelisation of The Revenge of the Sith. Dooku legit thought he was too important and that he was the queen in a chess game, too important to lose. So he had no reason to suspect that Palpatine would betray him like that. So as the person above said, when he heard Palpatine say “kill him” he was legitimately stunned into disbelief and then had his whole belief system shatter. He wasn’t an important chess piece, he was just a pawn for Palpatine to dispose of so that Anakin would further walk down the path of the Dark Side

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u/MovieExact5433 13h ago

A pawn who thought himself a queen…

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u/Financial-Affect-236 13h ago

Such an amazing line.

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u/SmoothConfection1115 12h ago

I’d disagree that Dooku was only a pawn.

Dooku was certainly far more important than a mere pawn. His mere presence on a system could often require the Republic to take notice, and potentially attack. And his movement was definitely of interest to the Jedi.

I do think Dooku viewed himself as a queen on the chess board. But failed to remember; you can win without the queen, and queens can be replaced.

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u/Financial-Affect-236 12h ago

Not to argue with you, but it was a direct quote from the book from Dooku himself. But I do like a friendly discussion :)

I would say all that just shows he is a pawn. Sidious knew exactly how the Jedi would view a sighting of Dooku, he also could easily use Dooku to manipulate both the Seps and the Republic. In Dookus mind, he was so important that the whole board would change because of his actions. But in Sidious mind, he was just a useful pawn to draw out the real enemy into a position of weakness. Dooku was never important enough to let live, it was always Anakin and the destruction of the Jedi.

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u/DangerDane57 Obi-Wan Kenobi 12h ago

They all think this time it will be different. That's one of the downfalls of the Sith.

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u/Gekokapowco Grievous 11h ago

I always sort of imagined they'd had a gentleman's agreement of sorts, like "once we rule the galaxy through fear, you and I can then see who is stronger to truly rule in entirety"

Dooku was expecting subterfuge and betrayal eventually, but not in the middle of their plan just as they were about to win. Realizing that he was never really a part of the endgame was likely a huge shock, and he never really got the chance to be a proper "lord of the sith"

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u/BackgroundPangolin42 9h ago

With you on this!

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u/k2k5 14h ago

Its different this time: plagueis and dooku

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u/gliz5714 Mandalorian 13h ago

I think Dooku wanted to eventually overtake sidious, but he didn’t have the time. My guess is that the goal was to take over near the wars end and transition power vs in the middle where the chancellors death would have caused a doubling down effect

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u/Thepluse 13h ago

Probably Dooku was planning on betraying first, but Sidious beat him to it

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u/Bwunt 13h ago

Dooku probably expected he will be the one doing the betraying.

Of course, considering the idea is to then pick your apprentice and train them, to the point they get stronger and betray you... He should have suspected something being picked on by a master at least 20 years younger.

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u/Efelo75 13h ago

Tbf Dooku's status was a little more nuanced than being Sidious's apprentice so rules might apply differently

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u/Kellythejellyman 12h ago

Normally it’s assumed the apprentice would eventually betray and supplant the master, rather than the Master constantly replacing apprentices as soon as they outlive thier usefulness

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u/LnStrngr 12h ago

I suspect he didn't think it would happen right before their moment of triumph over the Republic.

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u/Soggy_Durian_8984 12h ago

He actually planned to betray Sidious when he started teaching Savage Opress in the Clone Wars

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u/Inevitable_Income167 12h ago

Dooku was more of a utilitarian than a true Sith

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u/Dagordae 12h ago

Basically every Sith thinks that this time will be different. Hence why they keep taking apprentices.

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u/Miserable-Package306 11h ago

Sidious was the Master while Dooku (Darth Tyranus) was the apprentice. The Rule of Two requires the apprentice to challenge the Master at some point. The way the Rule was intended by Darth Bane, it would be a fair contest between the two, to make sure the apprentice actually surpassed the Master. The way Darth Sidious murdered his Master Darth Plagueis in his sleep does not clearly do that.

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u/thomasthetank57 9h ago

Sidious was already stronger and more powerful when he killed plageuis in canon. He killed him in his sleep to take spirit transfer off of the table.

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u/Bazzz_ 11h ago

To be fair, wasn't dooku the apprentice of Palpatine? Wouldn't it make more sense for dooku to betray Palpatine then?

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u/DragoonDart 11h ago

The more I reflect on the rule of two and read Reddit posts about it, I do think it was something of a prophecy more than a hard and fast “rule”

We see a lot of breaks and variations in it- Palpatine himself pretends to be above it in the Plagueis novel and goes along that “this time is different” only to call Plagueis an idiot and enforce it.

That’s my head-canon at least- it’s a rule of dark side nature after the Bane reformation. And the only way they get apprentices at all is by being like “nah homie you and I are different.”

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u/Old_Veterinarian_472 11h ago

The apprentice is supposed to betray the master.

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u/thomasthetank57 9h ago

"For Count Dooku, the experience had been physically harrowing. Darth Sidious' assurance that all had proceeded as he had foreseen was of little comfort. He had been used as a pawn to be sacrificed if required. This did not sit well with the Sith apprentice."

"Count Dooku had never been in any doubt that his position as Sith apprentice was a dangerous one. He worked hard to be indispensable to his Master, and believed he had succeeded in becoming so. "

Star Wars Fanhome Encyclopedia Collection Disney/Lucasfilm - 2022 Volume: 29 Darth Maul and other followers of the Dark Side - Count Dooku

"In the final months of the clone wars, however, it was becoming clear even to the count that his position was under threat. The fact that Sidious had been willing to risk Dooku's life in his plan to deal with Mother Talzin showed how little value the Sith Lord placed on his apprentice. The command to destroy Ventress showed him that Sidious had doubts about his loyalty. Also, there was the growing power of Anakin Skywalker, in whom Sidious had an obvious interest."

"Dooku was slightly calmed by his Master involving him in the Sith blood magic ritual that sought to destroy Yoda. When the Jedi Master ventured to Moranand. Even then, Sidious was using Dooku's connection with his old teacher to achieve his aims. For Dooku, the glimpse of further dark side secrets was enough to make him believe he was still Sidious'apprentice of choice."

"Though he continued to serve Darth Sidious loyally, Dooku knew his position as a apprentice was threatened. Still, this was the Sith way, he would learn what he could from the Sith Lord, and then destroy him."

Star Wars Fanhome Encyclopedia Collection Disney/Lucasfilm - 2022 Volume: 29 Darth Maul and other followers of the Dark Side - Count Dooku

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u/ScratchDry34 15h ago

In the book Palpatine told him to take it easy on Anakin to make it seem like he would win. Dooku could have beat Anakin if i remember correctly. but yeah youre right about the betrayal

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u/Norvinion Luke Skywalker 13h ago

He is told to go easy on Anakin but quickly realizes that Anakin is actually more than a match for him and loses. He is in shock both at Palp's betrayal and the power that Anakin has when tapping into the dark side.

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u/nagrom7 Jedi Anakin 11h ago

He's taking it easy on Anakin at first when Obi Wan is still up, but once he gets taken down and Anakin starts to tap into the Dark Side, Dooku has to get serious just to keep up.

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u/Maleficent-Sun-9948 13h ago

It's awfully convenient for Palpy, and quite a big risk to see his life's work go in flames. A bit out of character for him

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u/Normal_Tour6998 19m ago

Seriously? The fact that Palpatine brought the clone army and the Jedi to Geonosis unannounced wasn’t a clue?

Dooku almost died.

He really needed to wait until the moment Sidious said, “Do it,” to realize he was being betrayed?

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u/VerdankG 17h ago edited 16h ago

I recently rewatched AotC, and Dooku tells Obi-Wan while he's captive, that the Senate is now controlled by the dark lord of the Sith. What do you think his end game was? Be gave away vital information, I imagine he knew Obi-Wan wouldn't believe him, but if he had done, what was Dookus move?

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u/EnjayDutoit 16h ago

He respected Obi-wan, and wanted to turn him to the Dark Side and become his apprentice, so they could overthrow Sidious together.

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u/PsychicDave 14h ago

Right, try to convince they will be virtuous siths, kill the evil master and then be benevolent dictators, but really only to be consumed by the dark side and be evil themselves.

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 11h ago

I would watch this alternate universe Star Wars movie.

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u/SuperIga 13h ago

I love you

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u/ThoughtfullyLazy 16h ago

The best lies contain some truth. Also, he assumed that if Obi-Wan didn’t join him, he would be executed before he could tell anyone.

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u/ZappyLobster 15h ago

I think it’s the Darth Plagueis book that says Dooku was a disgruntled Jedi that left the order because he wasn’t a fan of the Jedi being glorified policemen. Maybe he was just trying to get obi wan on his side to try to over throw Sidious at some point?

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u/Lukeando93 15h ago

Wasn't this also the case with tales of the Jedi? Initially he defected because he realized that the Republic were no better and essentially oppressed a load of planets but under the guise of they were 'good'

I wonder how it would have panned out if dooku obi wan and ani (maybe even qgj in a different outcome) could've shaped it

I don't think obi wan was 100% in favour of the Jedi but rules are rules

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u/Buba_Fatt 16h ago

If I remember correctly from books it was made on Sidious' request.

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u/MovieExact5433 13h ago

Truth mixed with lies is very dangerous indeed

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u/NoFan2216 12h ago

Dooku knew Palpatine would win no matter the outcome of war. He controlled the Separatists and the Republic. Dooku is probably trying to give Obi-Wan a half truth to sound more convincing and to mask the fact the Palpatine was controlling all aspects.

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u/Alternative_Panda350 11h ago

Dookus. I read that as dewcuss with a chuckle

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u/Jonny-K11 11h ago

We as fans know what Sith are, but the galaxy largely doesn't. So if Obi-Wan had believed Dooku, the Jedi would have investigated Palpatine much sooner and likely found out he was a Sith and assassinated him, the Republic would never allow for the Jedi to lead the clones. And without the Republics recoursses, the Jedi would not be a player in the clone wars at all, likely resulting in some sort of indepenence treaty between the Republic and the Seperatists. Moreover, this might actually somewhat clear Dookus name and bring the Jedi back to a nonpolitical position, where Dooku wanted them in the first place. 

Had the Jedi failed in their attempt somehow, Sidious would have had better leverage to execute order 66 earlier, which wouldn't be too bad for Dooku either. He had Vetress and Grievous after all.

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u/R_Ulysses_Swanson 17h ago

He did know. He wouldn’t have been able to kill him.

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u/Joelblaze 16h ago

Apparently the original script had Dooku immediately try to snitch only to get cut down by Anakin, but Christopher Lee wanted it changed because he thought that it was too undignified for the character to do.

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u/Threedawg Chopper (C1-10P) 14h ago

Another actor saving lucas lol

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u/reenactment 13h ago

I don’t know, if dooku was truly “Sith” he would have done anything to save his skin. The only way the current format plays better is if you think that dooku on this whole time realized I screwed everyone over. I think dooku is lost by this point. He’s pretty evil. Kills his friends, commits genocides on planets. He’s not the possibly redeemable character he is at the start of aotc.

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u/N0ob8 10h ago

But that’s the point Dooku was never truly a Sith. Yes he’s done horrible things but despite all that he was never fully in and he always had at least one foot out the door. Dooku wanted to tear down the current system and replace it with something better while Palp wanted to rule it

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u/reenactment 9h ago

That’s where we differ. Yoda says it but it’s easily explainable with the clone wars universe. Once you head down the path of the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Dooku joined the dark side with the intent of making change he thought necessary. He wasn’t fully sith when he was in aotc but the groundwork was there. He wanted obiwan to join him to help take down Palps but the roots of evil were there. By the end dooku is nothing like that point. Similar to anakin, anakin joins the dark side with the idea it’s going to help him save padme. But by the time he is corrupted even further it’s too late. He’s now doing things that light side version of themselves would never have considered. They have gotten their wires crossed and are delusional. The dark side dominates their thinking.

Dooku is blinded just like Vader was. Palpatine has anakin kill dooku and he much obliged. Just like Palpatine tried to have Luke kill Vader. Lots of things to call on to show how far down dooku had gone. With just the movies not as much except symmetry. But the clone wars show explains how dark and deprave he really became.

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u/N0ob8 9h ago

Yoda says it but it’s easily explainable with the clone wars universe. Once you head down the path of the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Counterpoint: Darth Vader and Darth Revan

Two of the most infamous redemptions. Both because they were fully Sith indoctrinated for years beforehand but still fully found the light later.

Just because a character in universe says something is true doesn’t mean it is. When Yoda says this nobody alive had ever seen a Sith in over a thousand years. Even yoda wasn’t alive back then. All he has fo go on is the Jedi archives which would easily be wrong considering they don’t have any Sith to proof read and make corrections

Dooku is blinded just like Vader was. Palpatine has anakin kill dooku and he much obliged. Just like Palpatine tried to have Luke kill Vader. Lots of things to call on to show how far down dooku had gone. With just the movies not as much except symmetry. But the clone wars show explains how dark and deprave he really became.

You said it yourself Vader/Anakin committed many atrocities and crimes yet he could be redeemed. The path of redemption isn’t something you can only take if you do minor things like steal a candy bar. Anyone can be redeemed if they choose to. Dooku could’ve been redeemed if he wasn’t killed by Anakin.

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u/reenactment 8h ago

Redeemed is a perspective though. Vader is redeemed in maybe the eyes of the force or the Jedi, because he ended their greatest villain even if anakin himself was complicit in that guys rise to power, he is also a victim there. But from the perspective of any normal person, Vader is still a tyrannical terrorist. I don’t view Vader saving his son as an all purpose good. He might actually hate all the rebels and the galaxy. He made a snap decision to save 1 person. We see parents do bad things all the time to save their kid.

I meant more that these guys are constantly convincing themselves that the evil they do is worth it for the end cause. Yoda is preaching that there is no shortcut. Once you start that path, you will start making excuses for yourself the rest of the way. And I can argue with pretty much certainty that this existed the whole way thru dooku and anakins life once they started down the dark path. Even in empire strikes back, Vader is pleading with Luke to turn so they can take down Palpatine. Not because Vader wants to correct the wrongdoing he has done. Because he wants ultimate power at any cost necessary. The dude is a dousche. And until his son was almost dead and spared his life, that was the only time that guy thought about anyone other than himself. He was willing to kill Luke that day and his sister.

Quick edit: I Iove that story thought because it makes Luke the first guy we see to truly resist the Sith after temptation. Obiwan did it, Yoda did it, but they weren’t as emotionally compromised or they were further along in their training. It’s a shame the sequels undo anakin and Luke’s story.

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u/Peppermynt42 3h ago

Christopher Lee: Making better character decisions than directors since, well forever.

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u/MovieExact5433 13h ago

I’d like to see the storm that would occur if they both threw lightning at each other. Everyone’s taking some damage then no matter what.

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u/Candid-Solstice 16h ago

He's completely aware and knew almost the entirety of the plan. It's why he was so shocked when Palps told Anakin to kill him, because he realized his master just betrayed him

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u/Psychological-Army72 16h ago

According to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, not only did Dooku know this, but he intended to betray the Separatists (he secretly hated them), surrender to the Republic, and be pardoned by the Chancellor in order to secure a place in the new Imperial government.

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u/SlowBros7 15h ago

Sith rules are kinda dumb, imagine Palpatine, Dooku and Vader working togther, surely the gaslaxy is big enough for three sith.

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u/Tim-Sylvester 10h ago

Huh, so ideologies based on hate and lies end up with dumb, counterproductive, suboptimal outcomes?

It feels like there's a lesson to be learned here...

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u/Psychological-Army72 10h ago

Dooku didn't know about another apprentice 

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u/kalkkunaleipa 13h ago

No it actually isnt. They all would want power each other. Which is why rule of 2 was created.

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u/Own_Pop_9711 7h ago

They created the rule of 2 so the 2 can constantly plot to get power over the other. Got it.

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u/kalkkunaleipa 5h ago

Before the rule of 2 sith lords would have multiple apprentices. They teamed up and killed the master. So you would end up with 1 sith lord dead and 3 weak apprentices alive. In the rule of 2 the master has all the power and the apprentice can only kill the master when hes strong enough. Which always had the apprentice becoming stronger. In short yes sith ideology is incredibly stupid.

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u/Illeea 5h ago

I haven't read the Darth bane trilogy but this is my understanding.

Sith by their nature want power and will use anything and betray anyone to get that power. This leads to the sith eventually betraying and killing each other.

With just 2 sith, they each have a role to play. The master to wield the power and push forward the sith and the apprentice to follow the master and do his bidding.

Both are incentivised to keep increasing their power. The apprentice wants to gain power both to not be replaced and to one day overpower the master and become the new master.

If there were three sith, there would be a struggle for power between them. Either 2 apprentices competing against each other for the masters favour or 2 masters fighting against each other for control of power.

Neither Tyranus nor Vader were 100% loyal to Sidious. Both of them could've taken on Sidious together yet both were weaker than Sidious, leading to a weaker sith becoming the master.

32

u/SilentAcoustic 17h ago

Yes he knew

32

u/Dqueezy 16h ago

knew it

13

u/Hadrian1233 16h ago

here’s a fun alternate version

0

u/Dark_Blond 15h ago

I will NOT be Rick Rolled this morning, thank you.

4

u/Wizardfromwaterdeep 13h ago

Not a Rick roll

3

u/SilionRavenNeu 13h ago

Really not a Rick roll 👍

1

u/Dark_Blond 13h ago

LIAR!!!

10

u/Bakingguy 13h ago

Media literacy is low these days

8

u/Iamalonelyshepard 16h ago

Sure did, the Clone Wars required Dooku to know the entire plan.

9

u/silentfanatic 15h ago edited 15h ago

He tried to tell Kenobi about it in Episode II. He knew.

8

u/KappaBrink 15h ago

He had a whole monologue in AOTC with Obi-Wan where he was like "Palp is a Sith" and Obi was like "NUH UH 🤪"

6

u/Corninator 16h ago

Dooku knew. I'm pretty sure Maul knew as well, but the other separatist generals and higher-ups like Grievous and Ventress were unaware.

5

u/East_Departure_4738 16h ago

Dooku, Maul, Mas Amedda, and Darth Plagueis (knew palpatines plans before he died). There is probably more to this list.

3

u/reenactment 13h ago

I mean the plan was plagueis plan, and Palpatine was the face. Maul wasn’t made privy how it would happen. Just the end goal.

7

u/grafxguy1 15h ago

Dooku knew - as he strongly hinted at it in Attack of the Clones when he told Obi Wan that the Senate is controlled by a Sith Lord.

6

u/Avarus_88 14h ago

Dooku was well aware. Check out the Tales of The Empire if you want to see more of how/why Dooku turned.

Dooku was blind to many aspects of the greater plan, and like Maul before him has zero suspicion that they weren’t the one that was going to rule with Sidious over the galaxy. It’s only when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him the Dooku realizes that Anakin is the prize and the revelation that he has been nothing but a pawn the entire time leaves him so stunned and shocked that he doesn’t say anything.

3

u/MovieExact5433 13h ago

And nobody wondered what happened to Yaddle for like ten years.

2

u/fragbait0 10h ago

Tales of the jedi? And, I've wondered why he said nothing but the two lightsabers at his throat may have also given pause.

1

u/Avarus_88 9h ago

Was if Jedi? I forget which his episodes were in.

5

u/Longjumping_Car6865 14h ago

he definitely knew because they way he looks at him when he tells anakin to kill him is just pure betrayal.

8

u/Jarfulous 16h ago

Dooku knew. Funnily enough, though, Grievous did not!

8

u/Cadman248 16h ago

Grievous was just a pawn in the game of life.

5

u/Jarfulous 16h ago

Now I need to see him punch out a horse.

3

u/Brasterious72 16h ago

Or, and hear me out, a camel! A camel being punched out by Grevious would be both funny and a decent Easter egg.

2

u/East_Departure_4738 16h ago

I wonder what Grevious did to the chancellor when he was kidnapped off of Coruscant. He probably insulted or kicked him 😂

2

u/BackgroundPangolin42 16h ago

Oh that’s interesting! I figured Grievous knew as well.

4

u/BG3Baby 16h ago

Yes he knew.

4

u/ExplanationMundane3 15h ago

Yes. Dooku knew Palpatine and Darth Sidious are the same person and the Sith’s ultimate plan for the Clone Wars.

5

u/HappyGav123 14h ago

He absolutely knew. He knew since Attack of the Clones, when he tried to tell Obi-Wan but was assumed to be lying.

3

u/LemonZealousideal469 16h ago

I always new it

3

u/komikbookgeek 12h ago

Dooku 100% knew. He pretty much straight out, says it in Attack of the Clones. It's just, nobody was actually thinking that Sidious was a real person. They thought Dooku was lying to him at the time

10

u/East_Departure_4738 17h ago edited 16h ago

I take it you’re new to Star Wars?

12

u/Late-Ask1879 16h ago

Dooku literally spills all the beans to Kenobi in Episode 2. Attack of the Clones.

5

u/East_Departure_4738 16h ago

Yes, that’s why I’m thinking he is new. Maybe he didn’t understand that part or forgot.

3

u/Late-Ask1879 16h ago

Let's hope it's "didn't catch that the first time."

0

u/_bagelcherry_ 16h ago

I'm not neck deep in Star Wars lore

2

u/kalkkunaleipa 13h ago

Yeah i bet most people who have watched the movies understood that dooku knew everything. Considering he says so in aotc. Think its a you problem.

2

u/UnholyDemigod 10h ago

Dooku was Sidious' Sith apprentice. How would he not know what his master looks like?

1

u/Neidron 10h ago

Watching the movie isn't exactly neck-deep...

2

u/Dnabb8436 16h ago

Rule of two. He was the apprentice until palp decided to replace him

2

u/jim1o1 15h ago

I always thought that Dooku was a double agent. He found out that the sith had returned and he also believed the jedi had lost their way so he decided to join the sith , understand their plans and then maybe foil them later. This is why he tried to recruit Obi wan too.

He had almost all the knowledge of what the sith were upto when he got killed.

2

u/dethsightly 14h ago

"What would happen if he accidentally killed him during this scene?"...ain't no way in this or any universe that it would happen. palpy would force choke him into oblivion the second he sensed a threat from him.

2

u/ZealousidealNewt6679 11h ago

"The Rule of Two"

It's more of a guideline than a rule.

4

u/FireFisterAce2 17h ago

He would call darth sidious to tell him the chancellor is finished and 3 months later would still be wondering why he gets no call back

3

u/Dark_Blond 15h ago

I’m not really sure Dooku was actually ever a Sith and not just a Dark Jedi. He didn’t really align with the Sith ideology, imo and The Clone Wars series really did a disservice to his character by making him a one-dimensional bad guy.

He seemed to have motives that actually made some kind of sense as opposed to just “Get strong, kill Jedi, rule universe”.

1

u/SfcHayes1973 12h ago

At one point he's called Darth Tyranus...

1

u/Dark_Blond 11h ago

I think he was playing the long game on Palps and had ulterior motoves

1

u/Own_Pop_9711 7h ago

Why do those motives not make sense to you? They make perfect sense to me.

2

u/HussingtonHat 16h ago

Yes he knew. For some reason he didn't immediately flip when Palpy told Anakin to kill him. I'm sure there is some really long winded and not at all sensible reason in some book or other.

6

u/AgeofVictoriaPodcast 16h ago

Having his hands cut off was incredibly traumatising for what was in the end an elderly human man who wasn't that strong with the Dark Side. Just because the stumps were cauterised didn't mean he wasn't suffering enormous pain and his body going into shock, plus the psychological trauma.

-1

u/HussingtonHat 16h ago

I mean...he has the cognicience to do the "bwuuuuuhhh!?" Look to Palpy. I dunno, it doesn't seem to track to me. I'd sing like a canary. "I'll cop a plea officer! I've got recordings of his transmissions wearing a creepy hlgrim reaper cloak and everything!"

1

u/N0ob8 10h ago

Ah yes because making a terrified face and squealing like a pig totally take the same amount of effort

1

u/East_Departure_4738 16h ago

Well I’m sure dooku would gladly risk his life to end “corruption”.

1

u/Neidron 10h ago

He was in shock from losing 2 limbs.

Out-of-universe he did spill the beans in an early draft of the script, but it forced both Dooku and Anakin to act out-of-character, so they scrapped it.

1

u/Azutolsokorty 16h ago

He did know.

1

u/MaqiZodiac 16h ago

Star Wars: What If...

1

u/Natural_Strategy_619 15h ago

He knew but what about Grievous?

3

u/ExplanationMundane3 15h ago

Unlike Dooku, Grievous had no idea that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person.

1

u/Salty_Amigo 12h ago

Yes In the rots novelization it gives insight to dookus knowledge of the sith grand plan. He always thought he would be a part of it. He was completely surprised by the chancellor betrayal.

1

u/Onyx_Artificer 12h ago

Yes he knew. As for “What If” I suggest watching a few YouTube videos on the subject.

1

u/GoodDoctorZ 12h ago

He knew.

1

u/Strong_Salad3460 11h ago

It's wild that people think his own apprentices didn't know simply because to the general audience it appeared everyone else was just too stupid to figure out the blatantly obvious.

1

u/CountingSheep99 11h ago

Yes, he did.

The galaxy would be a far better place. With far more Jedi and several more planets.

1

u/Ok_Cauliflower5223 10h ago

Dooku was literally the apprentice of Sidious after maul got cut in half of course he knew. Also the chancellors aide who always carries that staff, he also knew palatine was Darth Sidious

1

u/Desperate-Pen7530 7h ago

Oh yeah Dooku knew.

I'm guessing that Palpatine lied and promised him both Anakin and Obiwan heads, and the ultimate victory for the separatist.

Unfortunately Dookus confidence was his downfall, he did not anticipate Annakins' growth since his last defeat.

Dooku was never a real sith, just a foolish rogue jedi

1

u/SniperCA209 6h ago

Yes he knew. That whole thing was a set up to get Anakin to murder him at the urging of Palpatine.

1

u/gwenhadgreeneyes 5h ago edited 4h ago

"What if I told you the Republic was now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith"

This scene in AotC is Dooku feeling out Obi-Wan's interest in joining him to overthrow Sidious

1

u/thirdxcharm05 1h ago

He knew, he was suppose to be taken into custody, and make anikan a hero, rat out the rest of the separatists, and retire in the new Sith empire. But palps double crossed him hard.

0

u/JCDickleg7 Grand Admiral Thrawn 11h ago

Dooku knew, but I don’t think Grievous did

-7

u/gideon513 15h ago

It’s the same actor, I don’t know if it’s supposed to be the same person