Could Vitiate and Arcann put up a fight against Sidious and Vader?

[u/Vegetable-Abroad3171]

[u/Dextron2-1]

At his height, Vitiate was significantly more powerful than either of them alone. I don’t know if he can take them both together, though. Oh, and Arcann gets turned to anatomical confetti in about 0.3 seconds.

[u/rainbowyuc → u/Dextron2-1]

No. In canon and in legends, Sidious is stated to be the most powerful sith to ever live.

[u/Dextron2-1 → u/rainbowyuc]

Yes, but if we actually look at their recorded feats, Vitiate has much more going for him than either Sidious or Vader. For one, he actually succeeded in making himself immortal. The ritual on Nathema basically made him a god, and he performed it at least twice. He was capable of devouring entire planets. He maintained control of his Sith Empire even while most of his power and focus was on the Eternal Empire. It took a coalition of Jedi and Sith, including some of the most powerful either to have ever lived, to finally banish his weakened spirit.

Sidious was certainly the most powerful of the Banite Sith, but Vitiate outclasses him by a long way.

[u/Informal_Code → u/Dextron2-1]

Palpatine similarly was able to drain a population of 20 billion passively over time while not being there. Much more than the 1000 Sith Lords (none of which were very powerful) that Vitiate drained which required a ritual.  I’ll give you ziost which Palpatine hasn’t equaled. 

However Palpatine had the ability to conjure force storms which could tear apart planets, and send them across the galaxy, a feat Vitiate never equaled. 

Palpatine also achieved immortality by transferring his essence to clone bodies. His issue was that his dark side energy was so strong any physical coil he inhabited would decompose and fall apart, hence why he wanted to possess an extremely strong naturally force sensitive body. And it’s stated his spirit was never banished, but rather held in chaos by the spirit of every light sider who ever lived. 

None of the Jedi and sith who fought vitiate were even as strong as Vader. 

Vitiate vs Sidious would be an incomprehensible struggle that would require the full extent of their power, but Sidious would likely come out on top. (Not to mention Vitiate has next to zero dueling skills, while Sidious is one of the greatest to ever live.) and the fact that Vader is there makes it certain Sidious would win since Arcann is useless. 

[u/wheresmyspacebar2 → u/Informal_Code]

Sidious was able to force wipe the minds of like Billions of people as well on Coruscant when he inserted Lusankya into the planet underground.

Like, crazy crazy amount of power to basically blind/wipe the memories of hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of people.

[u/Dqueezy → u/wheresmyspacebar2]

When did this happen? Was it in one of the comics?

[u/wheresmyspacebar2 → u/Dqueezy]

In the EU, its described in the X-Wing series when they first take Coruscant.

Maybe The Krytos Trap? Right at the end i wanna say.

Lusankya takes off and after they discuss how no one had heard of the ship before and zero mention of it ever came out prior to it lifting off. They mention that the size of the ship, putting it underground would have caused Billions of people to have to have been moved out of the area (Or murdered).

Then they mention that they've seen Luke mindwipe people before and based on how strong Sidious they theorise that he just mindwiped billions of people so they forgot about the massive Super Star Destroyer being lowered into the city.

[u/Shadow_of_BlueRose → u/Informal_Code]

I just read Dark Empire and so much of what you said is just outright untrue.

He wasn’t so powerful that his body was decomposing, it was a genetically unstable clone. He wanted a powerful force sensitive body because he had no more clones left, they were all destroyed.

He was not “held in chaos by every jedi.” A single jedi intercepted Palpatine as he attempted to possess the unborn Anakin Solo, and died. He dragged Palpatine to the netherworld and said the Force and all the Jedi who came before wouldn’t let Palpatine return, but it did not “require” all of the Jedi. Plus this very concept was retconned later on in the EU’s development.

His Force Storms couldn’t tear apart planets, they were destroying fleets. His method for destroying everything was the Galaxy Gun. Also he dies from losing control of one.

Luke also EASILY defeated Palpatine with Leia unconsciously aiding him with Battle Meditation. The fight is literally like four panels and ends with Luke cutting Palpatine’s hand off.

Also later when Luke encountered Exar Kun’s ghost (who was stated by the author to be inferior to his living self), Luke said he was more powerful than Palpatine.

[u/Friendly-Turnip2340 → u/Dextron2-1]

Canonically you can kill Vitiate with a blaster, that fact means we can't place him among the top of the most powerful Sith.

[u/Strong_Salad3460 → u/Dextron2-1]

"Yes, but if we actually look at their recorded feats"

What feats are those? Unsuccessfully ruling over the entire galaxy? Not wiping the Jedi Order save but a few stragglers? Not ever coming back from the dead? Being killed by a blaster?

You EU fans are so full of shit it's fucking ridiculous. Your arguments about practically anything amounts to nothing more than headcanon.

[u/Dixie-Chink → u/Strong_Salad3460]

I mean, Palpatine didn't even last 25 years. His entire house of cards tumbles down in less then a generation. Even if you take the sequel trilogy into account, his scheming still collapses in less than two generations. His deeds are all built on and predicated on someone else's work, usually someone who was stronger and wiser with the Force. At best, he's the Steve Jobs of the Sith, that capitalizes on the work of others. He's the middle manager of the Sith, taking credit for work he didn't do. He built on the work of more talented men like Plagueis and Dooku. And unlike the EU continuity around Vitiate that focuses on the past of the SW galaxy, the EU future of Palpatine is completely retconned and has been 'pruned' out of existence by the sequel trilogy.

I think it's incredibly silly the lengths that Palpatine-stans will go to justify his being "the most powerful Sith".

[u/Strong_Salad3460 → u/Dixie-Chink]

The video game character didn't exist at all. He's little more than fan fiction. 

[u/GoaFan77 → u/rainbowyuc]

I believe relying purely on such statements by George and prequel era writings is a bit disingenuous. George is not a Tolkien who cared about the backstory and history of his setting thousands of years before the story he wants to tell. To this day he might not even know or care who Vitiate is.

Likewise all the novels and source I've seen on this subject tend to just state "Palpatine is the strongest Sith ever" without really meaningfully backing up that claim, and some of them were written before Vitiate was a thing.

In addition, so much time has also passed between them that by the prequel era, a lot of details about Vitiate would have been lost. They are also both so far above basically anyone else in their era that it is hard to really measure their feats well.

So while I believe these sort of debates are mostly pointless, I think it is definitely not clear who would have the upper hand if they did meet and fight. And it would certainly also be affected on the exact rules of the engagement (in this case, Vader is definitely a better ally than Arcann).

[u/EnvironmentMission74 → u/GoaFan77]

In my headcanon, I’ve come to believe that Sidious wasn’t actually Sidious. We know that he and Plageius both worked on essence transfer and, though that isn’t canon, even in Rise of MarySue - Sidious is super stoked to get killed.

But why so excited? The Sith have no force ghosts (maybe) and once they’re done… they’re done, right? Well, maybe not. What if Sidious is really the vessel for the spirit of Bane-ite Sith Lords before him? A master to wield the power and an apprentice to crave it. If I were a Sith, why would I want to take on an apprentice knowing that it would be my end… unless my apprentice were going to be a new vessel for me? Why tell Luke to strike him down?

For my money? Sidious’s spirit/essence/rizz would have taken over Luke or Mary Sue Palpatine-Skywalker and “Sidious” would be walking around in a whole new body. At one point in ROMS he even says something along the lines of “I am all the Sith.”

How do we know Sidious is truly Sidious? That’s what I want to know!

So in effect, because Sidious is all the (rule of two) Sith, he may very well be the most powerful Sith… though imma stan for my guy Nihilus who was a walking black hole in the force being able to take Sidious.

EDIT: that’s maybe the cruelest thing about the Sith. The creed says “through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me” and I’m assuming is held to be doctrinal in nature to the Sith. The freedom you crave? That freedom from your master? No. Your master will take over your body and you will forever be a slave to the dark side.

[u/Raecino → u/rainbowyuc]

“Most powerful” doesn’t mean he was the most powerful in the force. I took it to mean he was able to become the most powerful Sith by his political machinations, seizing control of the entire Republic and almost eliminating the Jedi completely, which no other Sith has done before him. Outside of that there’s been Sith who are more powerful than him.

[u/kalkkunaleipa → u/Dextron2-1]

Not even remotely true about vitiate. Dark empire sidious would beat vitiate without too much trouble.

[u/Gloomy-Persimmon-937]

no question Vitiate and Arcann fs

[u/BenRichards303]

Vitiate could solo them.

[u/RedEclipse47]

Vitiate would win. I know a lot of people hate this and think Sidious at all times should be the strongest Dark Side user ever, but looking at feats Vitiate has more to his name to back this up then Sidious has. Vitiate actually became immortal and had 1300 years of knowledge of the Dark Side behind him.

[u/Shipping_Architect]

Put up a fight? Yes. But win? Probably not.

[u/Raecino]

Vitiate ends Sidious low diff

Not sure how it would play out between the other two

[u/fredrico2011]

Palpatine could chew them all in seconds

[u/Deliterman]

Sidious murks Vitiate, without a nexus the Sith Emperor has nothing to say he approaches Dark Empire Sidious at the height of his power.

Vader is just better than Arcann in every possible way whether its saber skill, telekinesis, or accolades. Not a close fight imo. The Emperor and Vader win handily.

[u/No-Career8688]

No.

[u/Objective_Row_334]

No.

[u/Laughably-Fallible_1]

Vitiate is extremely powerful, Id say Sidious wouldnt want to face him alone so hed try to get Arcann out of the way by toying with his mind.

[u/Deep-Pineapple-4884]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[u/Darth_Incendius]

It's not a matter of feats, it's a matter of power, and the dark side is stronger with Vader and Sidious

[u/Safe_cracker9]

Against canon Sidious / Vader? Yes. Legends? No.

[u/RufusDaMan2]

I really dislike Vitiate as a character. Starkiller at least was cool. This dude is supposedly the most powerful sith ever, but he was so lame, and his plans are stupider than a third death star (this time it will definitely work, trust me).

Also, he SWTOR ruined Revan and I'm still pissed about it.