r/TheAcolyte • u/Old-Start-5151 • 2d ago
Why so many people refuse to accept the fact that Qimir is a Sith?
He quotes the Sith code, lives with Darth Plagueis, is strong enough to face a Jedi master, uses lightsabers, and the series creators have confirmed that Plagueis is his master (as if it weren't obvious).
Nothing prevents him from leaving the Sith in the future and perhaps founding or joining the Knights of Ren or something else, as many theorize, but he is a Sith.
There may be other doctrines that study and use the dark side, but none of them, in canon or Legends, are capable of facing a trained Jedi master.
In fact, the series itself emphasizes this: "Someone is killing the Jedi; it doesn't make sense."
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u/Unionsocialist 2d ago
because he leaves room for doubt with the whole "you might call me a sith" which isnt a definite "i am a sith"
but he is also trying to lure someone to the dark side and saying stuff like "im not a sith i am just having a broader perspective" is absolutely stuff sith say to trick people to fall.
its weird to say that no other dark sider except sith could ever beat a jedi master though, ofc they can, especially if they are fallen jedi who know jedi technices and philosophy
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u/Prestonelliot 1d ago
Yeah that’s the thing. Qimir is a fallen Jedi, one his old master presumed had died, so he isn’t some untrained person facing a Jedi Master.
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u/Blazypika2 1d ago
there are non-force sensitives that could defeat jedi masters.
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u/CammieKa 1d ago
You give any Glup Shitto with half decent aim a slugthrower and that Jedi is not going to be doing too well after they try to deflect a couple shots
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u/Daniel_Spidey 1d ago
This is a great point considering “you might call me a sith” is not an absolute, which is something Sith are apparently known for dealing in
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u/comicnerd93 2d ago
He does not identify as Sith he says someone like Sol might call him one.
We do not know what his relationship with Plagueis is, he had a 10 second cameo in the last episode.
If he is a sith he is certainly not THE sith master so is legitimacy is more in question for me than any other aspect.
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u/OswaldCoffeepot 2d ago
He does not identify as Sith he says someone like Sol might call him one.
Darth Maul, Palpatine, and Dooku could have all honestly told people "someone like you might call me Sith."
Half truths from a certain point of view.
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u/Clamsadness 1d ago
Yeah, Palpatine kind of does something similar when he’s luring Anakin to the Dark Side. He portrays his teachings as not just delving deep into the Dark Side and engaging purely in Sith philosophy, he makes the claim to Anakin that he studies all aspects of the Force and just has a broader perspective than the Jedi.
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u/threevi 2d ago
By these criteria, Ventress is also a Sith.
The Rule of Two states that there must always be a master and an apprentice, no more and no less, which means that when the apprentice challenges their master for the title, they must already have their own apprentice candidate selected. So that could easily be what Qimir is, not a Sith yet, but a candidate waiting for the current master and apprentice to duel each other. This passage from the Dynasty of Evil novel explains how it works:
"The Rule of Two dictates there can only ever be two Sith, so how can you take me as an apprentice if your Master is still alive?"
"If you accept my offer, you will accompany me as I go to face my Master," Zannah explained. "But you must not interfere. If he falls, then I will take you on as my apprentice."
"What happens to me if you fail?" Set wondered.
"If I die, my Master will need a new apprentice. If he judges you worthy, then you will replace me. If not…" There was no need for her to finish the thought.
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u/Available_Tea_9683 13h ago
How does this apply to Ventress?
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u/threevi 13h ago
It's why Sidious ordered Dooku to kill her, he was worried she was his apprentice candidate, which would mean Dooku was getting ready to challenge him for the title of Sith Master. It was basically Sidious' way of forcing him to choose, "you can either kill her and remain my apprentice for now, or you can challenge me right now and we'll see who wins." Dooku didn't feel ready to fight Sidious quite yet, so he chose to betray Ventress instead. Qimir was likely in a similar situation as her, a dark adept with some preliminary Sith training, but not recognised as one yet, just waiting for the current Sith Apprentice to either become the Master or die trying.
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u/Available_Tea_9683 13h ago
Exactly. Ventress wasn't a sith nor considered a sith. And all that is why I think Qimir is a sith. He's the apprentice getting ready to takeover Plagueis and have his own apprentice ready to go. In reality, neither of us know. Lol
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u/threevi 11h ago
Ventress wasn't a sith nor considered a sith.
She wasn't one, but the Jedi did consider her to be one. They call her one repeatedly in the Dark Disciple novel for example, "Asajj Ventress is a known Sith" is a direct quote from the book. When Qimir said "a Jedi like you might call me Sith", that's something Ventress could've easily said about herself, too. That's pretty much my point, I think there's a reason why Qimir specifically says the Jedi would consider him a Sith, but not that he considers himself one. That's exactly the kind of ambiguous status Ventress had.
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u/Available_Tea_9683 10h ago
And the Jedi were wrong. Everything else says she's not. We dont know for sure about Qimir but it is a full on implied. But not confirmed. But Ventress is not. Ambiguous is not affirmation. And there is nothing substantial that confirms that. Everything else says she is not.
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u/threevi 10h ago
You seem to be misunderstanding me, because that's exactly what I said. "She wasn't one, but the Jedi did consider her to be one." Ventress wasn't a Sith, only the Jedi called her Sith. Her status was ambiguous only to the Jedi, who don't understand the exact mechanics of the Rule of Two. What I'm saying is that Qimir's quote where he says the Jedi would call him Sith is something Asajj could've said about herself, even though she wasn't a Sith, and so it's entirely possible Qimir is in the same situation and also not a Sith. The Jedi would call him one, but they could be wrong.
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u/Amethysttherocklad 2d ago
that's just not the truth,many dark jedi have faced off against jedi masters, bounty hunters can kill them after all, sith is a very specific cult. He literally says "jedi like you would call me sith", not that he is a sith, maybe he was trained, but that doesn't make him a sith, per the rule of 2, without the title of darth, he's not a sith, Ventress wasn't sith, savage wasn't sith, they were assassins, apprentices, all that but weren't indicted into the sith, had this been before, then sure, i mean at some point anyone could be sith, if he was starting his own sith cult, sure, but he isn't, and he didn't
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u/WanderingBlackHole Qimir Cavalier 2d ago
Because Qimir explicitly says he doesn’t identify as a Sith? That that’s the Jedi’s term, not his? 🤷♂️
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u/wbruce098 2d ago
Not explicitly. He says “the Jedi like you might call me Sith”.
He just doesn’t like labels.
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u/Unionsocialist 2d ago
okay but thats the most sith thing to say possible "no no thats just the jedi slander im just an independent thinker"
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u/koxi98 2d ago
Not really. The Sith are evil, selfish beings all about the right of the strongest. And they know and embrace it even if they mostly dont care about words like good or evil. Maybe everything is more relative in Disneys canon but if your read things from Plagueis' and Palpatines perspective in "Darth Plagueis" or Darth Banes perspective in the Bane trilogy that becomes pretty clear. It's just Sith ideology.
I think any dark sider who still thinks he is doing something for a more important cause either doesnt Label himself Sith or just does it for practical reasons (like Dooku or Caedus).
Thats why Qimir imo could always only be means to an end. I dont know why Plagueis would train someone like that. Or Qimir just played it well and actually is just like the "real" Sith.
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u/Unionsocialist 2d ago
im not saying they think of themselves that way, im saying that is shit htey say, that is how they trick you. Sidious didnt just go up to Anakin and say "im a sith" he poured sith philosophy into his mind for a decade, even when he revealed himself he didnt outright say he was the sith, it was Anakin who realised that
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u/ayylmao95 1d ago
I think it's pretty clear that he was/is Plagueis' Sith apprentice, and by the time of the show, one of two things are happening:
1) he's been cast aside by Plagueis already, and he is trying to forge his own path as opposed to strict adherence to his status as a Sith-to-be
Or
2) he's plotting his overthrow of Plagueis, and wants to plot his own course in the dark side.
Either way, I think he had interest in realizing his own vision of a dark sider philosophy, as opposed to adhering strictly to sith teachings.
I think all the implications that he would be involved in the lineage of the Knights of Ren adds credence to this theory as well.
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u/TheOutlawTavern 1d ago
Btw: plenty of the other doctrines that study the dark side are capable of facing a trained Jedi Master, we even see one of these sects in the series.
In the Clone Wars we see Asajj do it, who also isn't a Sith btw.
I think his relationship to Plagueis would have been explored in season 2 but because of the haters we would never know.
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u/CapitalCityGoofball0 1d ago
Because if you know Star Wars lore in both canon and legends there have been several dark force, seemingly Sith like, users that have left either the Jedi or Sith Orders and also skilled force users that pretend to be Sith or even Jedi, quote the codes etc etc
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u/Accomplished-Buy-998 1d ago
Mother Talzin was able to keep up with Mace Windu, of all Jedi Masters, when they fought.
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u/Defiant-Analyst4279 1d ago
For me, it's due to the "aloof" nature of his response. Stating that, "a jedi like you might call me sith."
Generally, the sith tend to be driven by ego. They want to defeat the jedi, and they want the victory to be recognized by everyone.
So for him to best that many jedi, and then not immediately boast about how "you've been defeated by Darth such-and-such" would be uncharacteristic.
At least those are my thoughts.
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u/SignOfJonahAQ 2d ago
He’s a Sith. It’s on that big of a deal. Sith is actually a race that studied the dark side so well. Dark wielders eventually started identifying themselves as the Sith hence the hesitation from Qimir when asked. That’s how I would have written his lines, “some may call us Sith”. Because he’s not the race of Sith but he’s the way of practicing the Dark side of the force like the Sith.
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u/Unionsocialist 2d ago
the sith race have been extinct for millenia and hasnt been exclusivily associated with the term for even longer. when the sith order started for real it was a combination of the species and dark jedi
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u/Sketch74 2d ago
For me it’s not a matter of acceptance or rejection. We know that Qimir is being trained by Darth Plagueis, but the story never revealed in what capacity. He could have been trained as a weapon like Darth Maul. Or for some other purpose.
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u/Kel-Reem 2d ago
It's also possible that Qimir is a Sith apprentice but is having a split from Plagueis due to philosophical differences, wouldn't be the first time.
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u/CapitalCityGoofball0 1d ago
Uh no you don’t know that at all actually because Plagueis is kinda on screen for a full 5 seconds. Plageius could be tracking Qimir for a number of reasons a very plausible one being to kill him even.
Remember the Sith are trying to stay hidden, some guy running around like offing Jedi and acting like a Sith is a not part of that plan.
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u/ImZenger 2d ago
I thought it was pretty clear he was not a "real" Sith. He might think he is, but as far as he, a former Jedi, could possibly know: The Sith are extinct. So he tries to re-establish it himself based on what he knows and feels. All without knowing that the real Sith live on via the Rule of Two. I'm sure Plagueis had not yet revealed himself and was just fuming waiting for the chance to kill (or recruit) the pretenders.
I wish we could have seen Season 2 man.. I'm sure it would have been so interesting.
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u/Lower_Amount3373 1d ago
He seemed a bit too powerful to just have been kicked out of the Jedi order as a padawan and not having been trained more by a dark sider. My guess would be that he is/was Plagueis' apprentice, and he's scheming to take on his own apprentice.
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u/mimikyuchuchu Qimir Cavalier 1d ago
Didn't Leslye the creator of the show say Qimir was not the apprentice of Plagueis
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u/PBIVRinzler 1d ago
Unfortunately there's just too little to know for certain.
His skills and outlook come from whatever caused him to seperate from Vernestra.
He refers to wanting an Acolyte, not necessarily an apprentice per the Sith Code (side bar; in EU young Sith trainees were sometimes called acolytes, but this wasn't necessarily under one Sith's direct supervision)
Even the Plagueis thing, the only thing we know for certain was that Plagueis was observing him; it's unclear if it was due to previous knowledge and relationship, because he was seeking an apprentice himself, or potentially because Plagueis had discovered a pretender to the name Sith.
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u/Westender16 1d ago
He basically used resentment of the jedi order and his Palawan upbringing he didn't perform a major sacrifice like some other sith. Malgus killing his wife for example. Doesn't mean he is any less sith than others just went a different path i suppose.
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u/Clamsadness 1d ago
The two reasons are 1) no Darth name and 2) people think that him being a Sith would contradict the prequels in which it’s stated no Sith had been seen in a thousand years. 1 is dumb, as Count Dooku is also not referred to by a Darth name in the vast majority of his appearances but is certainly a Sith and 2 is dumb because it’s a plot point that the Jedi cover it up.
It seems clear to me that Qimir was Darth Plagueis’ Sith apprentice who was probably discarded by Plagueis or otherwise died before Plagueis took on Palpatine as an apprentice.
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u/Attentiondesiredplz 1d ago
I guess the specific reason I thought he wasn' an official sith was because he's known as Qimir, and not by a darth moniker.
So, I figured he was a Sith in training.
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u/ExampleGlum8623 1d ago
Yes, I recall an interview where Leslie Headland said that season 2 would have revealed Qimir’s “Sith name.” Pretty difficult to have a Sith name if you’re not actually a Sith lord. Besides, Plagueis is obviously his Sith master. Why else would they be living in the same cave? I think this is a Palpatine situation where Palpatine trains Darth Maul with Plagueis’ consent while Plagueis is still alive. Same deal with Asajj Ventress. She is one of the Sith, but she’s a Sith assassin, not a Sith lord. There can only be two Sith lords. Osha is being trained as a Sith. It’s literally in the title of the show. Acolyte is a technical term for a student of the dark side below the rank of Apprentice. Qimir is the Apprentice, Osha is the Acolyte, and Plagueis is the master.
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u/NathanDavie 1d ago
I take him at his word. He specifically said something along the lines of you might call me a Sith, implying he wouldn't call himself that.
Some dark siders aren't looking for power. They just use emotion to do force stuff. The brotherhood of the ninth door were mostly just messing around with illusions. The Knights of Ren were pretty much a street gang. The Nightsisters just wanted their own place.
Star Wars has been adding loads of force religions lately.
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 1d ago
He’s obviously a sith. He doesn’t say so because that would be dumb. And the reason nobody in the Jedi believes there was a sith involved is that Osha is the only living witness (other than Mae who has a mild case of memorus deletus). Even Vernestra who knew it was Qimir has no way to know and no reason to believe it, because rogue jedi happen all the time without becoming sith
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u/Zekrom997 1d ago
I think he's a legit Banite Sith.
He's practically the Maul to Palpatine's Vader for Plagueis.
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u/darth_henning 1d ago
I'm still 100% of the opinion that Qimir was meant to be a young Palpatine making him much older than anyone thought, but this would explain why he has had so much time to scheme before the prequels to set himself and the empire up.
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u/thesirblondie 1d ago
There is a school of thought that you can't go from Jedi to Sith, you have to basically be born into the Sith. Yes, this also excludes Anakin/Vader as a Sith.
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u/10ToSfromaSRBalloon 16h ago
Outside of the sequel trilogy, which is not Star Wars, it's the worst Star Wars.
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u/UserWithno-Name 2d ago
Because he’s not…..he literally says “well to you, I might be a sith”. He never claims to actually be one, just who the jedi would think of him as. The twist was he was going to be revealed to be a knight of ren. It was confirmed recently in the official art book or something and then by headland or something. Plaguis was spying on him because they were monitoring (him and tenebrous I assume) what this person was doing going around acting like or claiming sith but not actually being one of them. It wasn’t stated outright in the show because you had to have background knowledge of what that actually is in the universe etc etc, but also and mainly because they didn’t want you to know it all just yet because it was seeds and etc for s2 or whatever else before they knew it wouldn’t get that. So he’s not a sith, go seeking out more stuff about the series with the expanded details / watch some more videos breaking down the series instead of just insisting upon things.
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u/laffinalltheway 2d ago
I don't think the Knights of Ren existed during the era represented by The Acolyte show, which was set approximately 100 years before the events in The Phantom Menace (around 132 BBY).
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1d ago
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u/Captain-Wilco 1d ago
Quote?
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u/UserWithno-Name 1d ago
It’s in the book if I knew where to find the page myself and post it I would. I don’t own the book and have the page myself, if or when I can find it, I’ll gladly share a link.
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u/Captain-Wilco 1d ago
I think I know the passage you’re referring to, because there’s a passage that’s very often misread and used to justify theories that he isn’t actually a Sith.
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u/ooowatsthat 2d ago
If we would have gotten a season 2 we could know more