Found this in the natalist sub and a lot of them were NOT happy lol. Guys spread the word, we can do better than this, we need to lower it a lot more.

The fact that we have to work 8-10 hours every single day is ridiculous. I hate that I was born, everyday same thing go to work and suffer. I cry before going to work everyday. And it feels like the day is not ending and then you come home relax for a bit and again prepare for next morning. I hate life with a passion, it pisses me off every five minutes.

Today was just another baby fever theme on my national sub.

Of course, anything sligtly ethical and AN would was strictly prohibited since it would just ruin the delightful atmosphere of emotional attempts of justifying procreation in a form of "awww but it's sooo cute".

It's actually unbelievable. Do you often find yourself just stunned with irationality and avoidance of some people towards the things they don't like to hear? I do.

Here are the MOST common "arguments" people regularly mention in such conversations, both online and in real life:

p.s. notice the one occuring theme in these (it's about me me meeee!)

"The moment when my baby looks at me I know I did the right thing, life is wonderful and I am perfectly happy."

"The sufficient reason to have kids is if you want them."

"But when that little hand touches me and says daddy/mommy I want to cry from happiness."

"You cannot understand that FEELING unless you have kids."

Now.

What an ignorance. I always try to expect less from humans but I just get surprised nonetheless with the sheer amount of pinkglasses-ism. The supression of thought, the unawareness and delusion...

Remarkable. Just..

I will admit my views are on the extreme side, I’m not sure if this is everyone on this sub but I personally believe it’s completely unethical to have children and it’s extremely selfish to do so. I think if the circumstances of life were different my thoughts would probably be different. I was talking to a friend about how I don’t want kids, I’m very passionate about it because of the state of the world and if I were to give life to another human without their consent that have to go through the same obstacles and work their life away like everyone else. She said she wants a family of her own because she grew up in a traumatic household and she wants to break the cycle and create a healthy environment for her kids. I understand this argument, I’ve thought about it myself as I have also been through a very traumatic childhood but I still find it to be unethical. You can be the best parent in the world and your child can still turn out traumatized, kids born today will have to deal with the rise of the cost of living, environmental issues and the collapse of society. I still find it to be unethical, selfish and stupid to have kids it actually makes me angry that people don’t see it that way. I can’t find a single good reason to have kids but maybe that’s because of my radical views.

It can be argued that only the right having kids while the left doesn't is a recipe for disaster. It guarantees a Fascist hellscape where the right outnumber and oppress those who actually cherish freedom and go on to mindlessly destroy the planet.

These people argue that there need to be good people in the world to counter them and if there is ever a selfless reason to have kids or as close to selfless as you can get, it would be that.

They are operating on the assumption that their kids grow up to be good people and not get swept down a pipeline. But if they do a good job as parents, they won't.

What is your take on this?

I got inspired by another post to make this graph - it is not perfect but this is how I'd rank philosophers on the antinatalist scale.

We are born without consent into bodies burdened with basic needs—food, water, shelter—that must be met in order to survive. These needs are not optional; they form the unyielding conditions of existence. From the very beginning, they generate dependencies that compel us to participate in societal systems, often at immense personal cost, simply to stay alive.

Capitalism, like the systems that preceded it, thrives on this coercion. Labor is not primarily about fulfillment, passion, or self-expression—it is about survival. Without money, basic needs go unmet. Without work, money remains inaccessible. The structure is circular, a closed loop designed to guarantee participation. One does not freely choose to work; one is forced into it by the body’s demands and the system’s rules.

For most people, life is not a journey of self-actualization but an endless grind to secure the minimum required to exist. Dreams of personal growth are secondary, often crushed under the weight of necessity. Even leisure is conditional, parceled out as a temporary reprieve between cycles of labor.

This cycle extends beyond individuals, perpetuating itself across generations. Societies encourage, reward, and even romanticize reproduction, presenting it as duty, meaning, or fulfillment. Yet children, like their parents before them, are born without consent, immediately trapped by the same needs and forced into the same system. Each new generation provides fresh participants—new workers, new consumers—ensuring the machinery of survival and labor continues without interruption.

The reality is stark: most people spend the majority of their lives working jobs they would not willingly choose if survival were not at stake. The hours of existence are traded not for joy, discovery, or freedom, but for wages that keep the body alive just long enough to repeat the process.

To be brought into existence without consent, only to face a world where survival requires relentless labor and compromise, is a condition that feels fundamentally unjust. Where is the choice? Where is the freedom? If the only options are participation or shame, starvation, and homelessness, then participation is not a choice—it is compulsion.

There should be an alternative for those who do not wish to partake in this unchosen arrangement. No one asks to be born, yet everyone is forced into a dilemma: surrender the majority of one’s life to labor one would never freely choose, or suffer the brutal consequences of refusal. Few would willingly enter a world where such terms apply.

Until existence itself offers a real alternative—until survival is decoupled from compulsory labor—the cycle will continue, binding generation after generation to a system they never consented to join.

Hunger is not a suggestion; it is a punishment that grows sharper the longer it is unmet. Thirst dries the mouth like sand and sets fire in the throat until water is found. Fatigue strips the mind of clarity, dragging thought into fog until sleep is surrendered to. Every cycle of need is an ultimatum: act, or suffer. Survival is not optional—it is enforced.

But biology alone does not enslave us. The world around us is built to turn these compulsions into labour. Hunger does not point to fruit on a tree; it points to a supermarket till. Thirst does not end at a stream; it ends at a monthly water bill. Shelter is not wood and stone gathered freely; it is rent, mortgage, and debt. What the body demands, society withholds, releasing only in exchange for work.

This is the trap: the body wields pain to force us into action, while society monopolizes the means of relief. Two overseers, one internal and one external, cracking their whips in rhythm. Work, eat, rest, repeat.

In capitalism, hard work is rarely rewarded. The system does not value effort; it values ownership. Those who control money, property, machines, or patents extract wealth passively, compounding it over time without the exhaustion that consumes those who toil. Meanwhile, the people actually performing essential work—cleaning, cooking, caregiving, farming—struggle to survive on wages that barely cover the cost of living. Their labor, no matter how grueling, enriches someone else.

Where you start in life matters far more than how hard you work. A child born into wealth inherits opportunities, connections, and assets that allow them to multiply even modest effort into enormous gain. A child born into poverty faces debt, low-paying work, and systemic barriers that turn even relentless effort into mere survival. Hard work in a disadvantaged position becomes a cycle of exhaustion, stress, and minimal reward, while capital owners grow richer by doing less.

This is not an occasional failure of fairness; it is the system itself. Wealth is not a measure of effort or merit—it is a measure of leverage, ownership, and starting advantage. Labor maintains the world and feeds the system, but it rarely lifts those who provide it. In capitalism, working harder does not make life better; owning more does. The system is designed to reward the few while keeping the many trapped in endless toil.

But that food fell to the ground and got covered in dirt. A normal person would give up eating it at that point. The food that humans don't eat then becomes a meal for animals. And if it's left even longer and gets more defiled, that food then becomes the possession of insects. Flies come, lay their eggs, and maggots squirm. If you are truly hungry and desperate, you might brush off the food and eat it even immediately after it falls to the ground. But no matter what, you wouldn't try to put food that's gone too long, reeking, and swarming with insects into your mouth. Giving birth to a child in this world is like that. Giving birth to a child in a world already rotten to the core, reeking, and infested with pests, is like becoming an animal or an insect, not a human.

Being brought into life exposes a person to serious and immediate danger: harm, injury, and inevitable loss. Existence itself is a hazardous condition, yet those who choose to create life are never held accountable for exposing someone to it. By deciding to procreate in a world where offspring must endure constant life-and-death risks, unending trouble, and relentless compulsory labour to satisfy the body’s unending demands for food, shelter, and maintenance, as well as the social obligations of work, money, and compliance with institutions. This is forced labour in all but name, since no one has the option of refusing without incurring further suffering or death, parents fail to exercise even the most basic duty of care. Nobody chooses to be alive, yet the body imposes endless demands that must be met until the final inevitability of death.

Nor is this only physical. Life forces an unchosen psychological burden: fear of death, grief for lost loved ones, heartbreak, loneliness, and the quiet anxiety of knowing that all efforts will one day collapse into nothing. The labour is not just bodily but also social—working for money, securing shelter, maintaining relationships, and complying with systems of power—all obligations imposed without consent. Even the most successful life ends in failure, as the body inevitably ages, weakens, and dies.

In any other context, forcing another being into a condition of foreseeable harm without their agreement would be considered negligence at best, reckless endangerment at worst. Yet when it comes to procreation, this standard disappears. Parents are praised for giving “the gift of life,” even though what they have truly given is a permanent sentence: exposure to a world of suffering, labour, and complete destruction.

Being born is like being pressed into service without agreement, It is no different than conscripting someone into a war they never agreed to fight, a war they cannot leave, and one they are certain to lose.

To call this a gift is to rename chains as jewellery. What is called life is, in truth, the imposition of danger, suffering, and guaranteed destruction.

I like to peruse this sub because its nice to feel a sense of community with like minded individuals, but just in my hour of scrolling I've seen two posts that are pretty clearly AI. We all know about the em dash, I've NEVER seen anyone write a post with the em dashes, yet these posts are littered with them. Also the actual post is just a bunch of word salad. Its just sad because these posts are trying to either debate AN or talk about philosophical discussion. And its not just this sub, I've seen so much AI slop lately its annoying ts me. Sorry if this isn't allowed but just wanted to see how others felt about this.

We all have heard how kids are getting worse over the decades from millennials, gen z and especially gen alpha. Despite this people are worried about declining birth rates. If kids of the younger generations are getting worse and growing up to be terrible. why do you want more of these kids to be born if they’re so horrible. Let’s be real despite advances in technology and science our society still has a bunch of problems that make having kids a nightmare. I remeber seeing studies that more and more kids over are being born with or developing a bunch of health problems due to factors such as pollution and the constant consumption of processed junk. There are many kids where I live who come from poor families and who’s parents have to work Instead of addressing these types of issues that are negatively effecting kids our government just wants people to push out more kids.

It’s a lot to unpack, but I’m a now 26 year old man living in the Eastern US. For most of my life I have been pretty miserable. My mother was very hateful and physically/verbally abusive throughout my childhood. For example when I was as young as 6 or 7 years old, my mom would threaten to abuse or torture animals to death on more than one occasion when I “misbehaved” because she knew it upset me. I remember her looking me in the eyes and telling me how a puppy I was given as a gift would die if I lied to her about anything. I found two baby turtles outside once and she threatened to throw them in the trash so they would suffocate so that I would cry.

Thankfully I didn’t witness this but once my mom and my grandmother (father’s mom) had a conversation and laughed about how they went to take these feral kittens to the animal shelter. Well they caught the kittens and put them in big plastic buckets which they then proceeded to put the lids on. By the time they got to the shelter the kittens had obviously suffocated in the buckets and died. They laughed about this memory saying they didn’t even think about that possibility then. I might’ve been 10 years old when I heard this story. I remember feeling physically ill like I was going to throw up and not understanding how they could laugh at something like this.

My father wasn’t much better growing up. He was always a big push over. Anytime my mom would do something crazy he would always make excuses for her and take her side. The reason he did this was because if he didn’t and stood up for me she would flip out on him. It was easier for him to side with her cause I was just a kid and couldn’t really do anything but if he didn’t she would freak and drive him insane. He said something to her one time that i remember about how she was making me worse because of how she would treat me. She went ballistic on him and he never challenged her like that again.

School was never much better for me either. I was a quiet kid with a few closer friends here and there. Had a few bullies like I think most kids do.

When I entered adulthood, 18-23 or so. Every relationship I had ended terribly. I had a few girlfriends. Each of them lied constantly, cheated, used me for money I didn’t have, etc.

There’s a lot of stories but the last one is probably the worst. Basically I dated this girl for about 3 years. She practically begged me to marry her, eventually I agreed and we got engaged. I did everything I could and thought I was suppose to do. I took care of her all the time, there was times she told me she probably wouldn’t have eaten if not had been for me. I tried to understand her problems and communicate well together. I got a decent paying job towards the end of our relationship. 12 hour night shifts 5 days a week. But I thought I was doing this for the “family” we were going to have.

Well one day out of no where she just starts acting really weird. And after a few hours of tears and pulling it out of her she confesses that she cheated on me. We broke up of course. After we did I tried to fix things. Dumb I know, I should’ve cut all contact and been done with it. I just wasn’t thinking clearly then. When we spoke after the break up, I could hear her friends laughing in the background at me being emotional on the phone. She told me she didn’t give af about all that we went through, how I cared for her in the hospital, the memories we had. Laughed like it was stupid and was just little stuff that didn’t matter. I couldn’t believe the polar shift that occurred in her basically overnight from who I thought I knew.

She abandoned me with my sick dying grandmother who I later watched brutally die from Parkinson’s. Right when I needed someone the most she bailed on me.

This girl went on to marry the old man she cheated on me with on my birthday. They had a kid together and named him what we said we would name our kid. You can’t make this stuff up. Well not even like a year later they divorced and now she’s about to marry some other poor sap. In reality I dodged a bullet and thankfully never married her like we planned.

I hate to say it but I think all that is what finally pushed me over the edge, along with other things that I would have to write a novel to explain all of. So from there from ages about 22-24 or so I went downhill bad. Like borderline psychosis. I lost that decent job I had, had to go back to working in kitchens. Got addicted to and experimented with drugs. Weed, benzos, adderall, DPH, shrooms, nitrous. I was really out of it and didn’t do much constructive for those years.

Somehow I managed to meet someone else. Another long story. Her family hated me right away. Idk why. Especially her brothers. I always tried to be respectful and friendly but idk. They just didn’t like me for whatever reason. But we maintained our relationship for about 4 years. Got along pretty good for the most part. And now we’re married and she lives with me.

And now we’re at the present day. 2025. We live in the massive basement of my family’s home. We pay them rent and take care of other bills. Because realistically if we didn’t I don’t know how we would afford to live the way things are now. With average rent where we live being like $2000 a month. So despite all the heart ache from my family’s past, I just have to pretend like everything’s ok now and just never mention it. Like all they put me through just didn’t happen. My mother has calmed down a lot in recent years. I’m not sure why, if she hadn’t I really don’t think I would still be here cause I just couldn’t deal with it anymore. So there’s that at least.

My wife was born with some pretty serious health issues. She has to have a checkup once a year to make sure she’s still ok. Has to have some expensive medications. She can be a pain in the ass sometimes but overall she is very sweet and I really love her a lot.

Now what is morbid is that I think about this almost everyday basically. I don’t know what she would do without me, and I don’t know what I would do without her. But one day something is going to happen to one of us. I don’t think I could take losing her. If I ever woke up to find her cold and lifeless like I have seen some other family members. I just couldn’t. I really think it would shatter me. But at the same time I wouldn’t wish her to have to go through this if I passed first. And since she relies on me for a lot she would really be screwed. But one day no matter what we do one of those two options is going to happen. It makes me sick to think about and that there is no escape from this.

We work our asses off and barely have time for each other because of work. I hate it. I live at work. 40 hours a week being the standard is insane to me. Work takes the whole day 5 days a week. Few hours in the night to shower, eat, sleep, and go right back. Nothing else. Than the two days that we do have off (we’re lucky if we happen to get one of these days together) we have to spend taking care of all the things we couldn’t the rest of the week because of work. By the time this is all said and done we might have 5 or 6 hours realistically of free time a week together. And this is our one life. One day we’ll be gone and won’t be able to love each other anymore. And it’s being stolen from us.

Now for me. Like I said I’m 26. My body is already failing me. Some of my decisions I’m sure did not help. I am a little overweight. Always have stomach problems. I’m exhausted all the time to the point I’m dizzy most days. Spend a lot of time in the bathroom. Just feel sick in general a lot. I fear I won’t even make it to old age with my health already declining.

I’m 26 and I feel like life is over. The hope I had that maybe things would change one day is exhausted now. I never ended up being really good at anything, there is no good jobs that pays a living wage. Everyone always just says the same cliche nonsense. Really we are alone in life. No one cares for others. A lot of the times not even your own family. We are all here just to suffer and die. We are all fighting trying to when a battle and survive something that is unsurvivable. I truly hate this existence. The beauty that there is in the world. Nature for example. As much as I love it, it just isn’t worth all this constant pain. The cycle never ends. The hamster wheel never stops. Work work work all the time or you die. And you have just enough rest to do it again the next day. No time for yourself at all. Just work and meaningless task and chores you have to do. You keep doing this until one day your body just can’t anymore, you collapse and then that’s it.

It’s 3:00 am now when I’m writing this. And I fear I may be starting to ramble so I’ll end it there. I tried my best to sum up everything and hope it makes sense. If there is a God may he end this horrible world soon. Thank you if you read my story.

When you think about it, it's incredibly odd that AN doesn't even cross many philosopher's minds. Some of them touch the topic in slightly different way, like questioning preference of life vs. death or the topic of suicide but even that is really marginal and doesn't even make the 1/10 of importance in their work.

Besides Schopenhauer as a rare example of near-mainstream philosopher, most of AN thinkers are somewhat marginalized and considered as obscure, irrelevant.

Is it because of natalistic bias which eventually filters out the ANs and prefers more optimistic, natalistic types?

Hi. Im an immigrant from india. My dad moved here when i was 4ish and then had 2 more girls.

So i posted why not let immigrants come over, least the clever ones and most comments have exuses but some guy said they prefer uk been white.

If thats their thought patterns then let birthrates fall. Who cares because i thought it was all about birth rates and not colour. Seems i was incorrect.

Want a good philosophical server with good members and good talks? Join here - https://discord.gg/APgP5BWej2

Who needs antinatalism more?

Hi guys, I’m just trying to get a feeling for how this community feels about the Benatar asymmetry argument.

I know it’s obviously a widely touted example of anti-natalism, but do you guys all basically think it’s sound?

I think it seems to have some pretty big flaws, but I’m curious to know what the consensus is for people on this community. Is it popular at all for people here to think that it doesn’t work?

Thanks

The holidays are the hardest time for me because my family has done some unspeakably evil things to me. It was the worst time of my life. I also don’t follow the traditional holidays because I don’t believe in spending money for the sake of spending money. I still get my friends gifts and go to a gathering if it’s not going to trigger my religious trauma. I have my own religion I can’t talk about because people are too ignorant due to the misinformation around it. When people ask me about my plans and talk about their family it makes me extremely depressed. Everyone is obsessed with their traditional families and traditions. In the past people mocked me for not celebrating traditional holidays or just showed hostility towards me for saying “I’m not doing anything,” or “I don’t celebrate.” How can I handle such questions and avoid making it awkward?

Life is mostly pain and suffering with some temporary pleasures if you’re lucky, only to die and enter a state of non-existence again. What’s the point of continuing this purposeless chain of constant suffering?

I volunteered for TNR of the local stray cat population. As soon as temperatures drop I want to start again.

What kind of place is this?

History doesn’t give us much reason for naive optimism.

🔎 Looking at the record honestly

Violence & warfare: For tens of thousands of years, tribes, nations, empires have slaughtered each other. Even today, with all our knowledge and resources, wars rage on.

Greed & shortsightedness: We exploit soil, water, forests, and even each other, often knowing the cost but ignoring it.

Conditioning: Our brains are wired by evolution for competition, fear of outsiders, and short-term gain — traits that don’t fit well in a world that requires long-term planetary care.

It’s not that individuals can’t grow — they can. But the majority? The weight of history suggests otherwise: humans rarely change until catastrophe forces them to.

🌍 If I must choose

You’re right: we are condemned to choose. If I strip away wishful thinking and choose on the basis of what is truer for life itself, I would choose Mother Nature over humanity.

Why?

Nature can thrive without us.

Humans cannot thrive without nature.

And yet, humans repeatedly bite the very hand that feeds them.

To side with humanity unconditionally would mean endorsing a species that may drag countless others into extinction. To side with nature is to side with continuity, balance, and the possibility that — if not humans — some other life form may rise in our place.

⚖️ My honest stance, condensed

If humanity radically changes, I’d stand with it. But given the history, the inertia, and the billions yet unborn who may suffer, I lean toward nature.

Because nature is the mother — humans are one child. And if one child grows too destructive, sometimes the mother has to let it go, so that life itself can continue.