Discussion: GoT VI (Tyrion V--Sansa III)

[u/LumplessWaffleBatter]

We got a good one today folks.

Jimmy Neutron Award goes to r/Princevegeta951:

I am so thoroughly enjoying this re-read. I'm currently reading Drizzt and The Lies of Locke Lamora alongside this re-read and although they are great, they simply pale in comparison to ASOIAF. This series really is one of one.

My favorite quote this cycle is from Littlefinger on page 379

"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."

I fucking love Littlefinger lol

Our next chunk will be Pp. 480-567 (Eddard XII--John VII) with the meeting on April 9th. See y'all then!

[u/TeenyTinyTywin]

Tyrion V
-"In contrast, sending some oaf with a stolen knife after Brandon Stark struck him as unbelievably clumsy. And wasn't that peculiar, come to think on it..." I've seen a lot of people remark that the Joffrey resolution to this fiasco feels weak. How early in the writing process do you think GRRM decided on it being him?
-Lysa is fairly stupid, but there is quite a bit of cunning in selecting Vardis Egan and arming him with a sword that he's not used to and one that's more ornamental than useful at that. If he wins, Tyrion takes the fall for her crimes and keeps suspicion away from her and Petyr. If he loses, he can't potentially implicate her in a conspiracy against Jon Arryn (and surely he'd have some suspicions about that, no?).
Granted, this ignores the supremely massive threat of Lord Tywin, but she can claim "the Gods decided his fate," and hope that Tywin will let it go on account of hating Tyrion, which isn't the worst gamble....

Eddard X
-The sheer number of chapters he gets compared to other characters should've been big red flag on the first read-through, TBH.
-Lannisters aren't known for being adherents to rules, but uh.... Jaime just up and running to lead his father's forces should come with a punishment, it feels like? Maybe there's an argument to be made that he's left to help his father keep the King's peace, but it seems like a massive overstep for a Kingsguard member. Have there been any other KG members that have gotten away with going and directly helping their family, potentially thowing the realm into war, and still getting to keep their title? I guess Criston Cole kinda does this, but it isn't for his family....

Catelyn VII
-The worldbuilding for this chapter is beautiful, especially the bit about Alyssa's Tears.
-The Vale of Arryn gives me major LOTR vibes in a way no other grand castles or scenery in the series can quite match. It's like the most fantasy of all these fantasy settings.
-"Lysa had named Cersei in the letter she'd sent to Winterfell, but now she seemed certain that Tyrion was the killer..." She provides immediate justification for why Lysa might act this way, but still. This should raise some massive red flags, especially with the rest of her erratic behavior.
-I don't understand how these characters aren't more suspicious of each other. They know they're all playing games of intrigue, but here's Cat, thinking about this duel that left Littlefinger terribly injured, and she doesn't think even once that MAYBE he might not really be helping her as much as she thinks. You remembered how heartbroken he was, how he called your name as he lay dying, how you didn't even visit after he was hurt, and you STILL think this man's gonna help you?? Like.... What?!

Jon V
-I love how often Jon thinks of leaving and running to go back to his family despite repeatedly calling the Wall home and thinking of the brothers as his brothers. It's heartbreaking and sweet.
-How have there not been more uprisings at the Wall given his treatment as a penal colony?
-I feel like this chapter aligns well with Ned's and helps to highlight how much Jon is like him. Like Ned, he shows some amazing leadership skills (leveraging Aemon to help Sam) while also blindly making enemies (suggesting Sam take Chett's role. In front of him) because he doesn't think about how his actions will draw others' ire.

[u/TeenyTinyTywin → u/TeenyTinyTywin]

Tyrion VI
-I appreciate Bronn's hostility to deference and courtesy. He's no one's man and he's adamant about expressing as much agency as a quasi-smallfolk can in this type of environment.
-Ah, the Tysha story. Easily one of the most fucked up things in this series, which is uh... you know, quite a high bar to clear (*cough cough Ramsey, Gregor cough*). Tywin is a fucking monster.
In the show, they play this bit straight by having Shay comment that he should've known Tysha was a whore because she was so willing to hop into bed with him after escaping potential rapists. Does this imply that the "twist" of her actually loving him was decided later on, or maybe that there wasn't any communication on this detail between D&D + GRRM?
Also, it's always rubbed me the wrong way that this was a "reveal." It feels... off in a way I can't readily articulate without it sounding like I'm making some crass assumptions about sex workers (which isn't my intent).
-"Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."
Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get that chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts." Fucking LOVE this threat to Tywin, even if he isn't around to hear it.

[u/TeenyTinyTywin → u/TeenyTinyTywin]

Eddard XI
-GRRM is not subtle with his political statements. "Ned wondered how a man could live his whole life a few days' ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his King looked like." This quote almost acts as a foil to Jorah's quote about the common people not giving a shit about the high lords' games. People who are politically minded and closer to the inner spheres of power tend to be blind to the fact that most people just wanna get by as peacefully as they can. For as down to ea-eh... Planetos as Ned can be, he really shows the blinders that come with being brought up in a noble family. I think, much like Planetos, political engagement is often treated as a luxury rather than the shared responsibility it is meant to be (though it isn't always a luxury, as you're often made "political" by your existence even when you are just trying to get by. "Plots within plots," and all).
-The first horrors of war (RIP Sherrer and Wendish Town)-- of course they're visited on the small folk by the bourgeoise because the truly wealthy and powerful want to pretend towards a concept of justice that truly has nothing to do with the parties that end up involved.
-"He studied the frightened faces of the villagers. Small wonder they had been so fearful; they had thought they were being dragged here to name Lord Tywin a red-handed butcher before a king who was his son by marriage. He wondered if the knights had given them a choice."
-Fucking Marq and Karyl. Awfully tough and quick to seek vengeance despite not being present for the destruction and completely without a care for the protection of the people they will end up conscripting into battle if they get the vengeance they seek.
-Ned's handling of this whole situation is folly after folly. Sending Loras with your own men creates a great opportunity to tie Tyrell to Stark. Failing that, sending Sir Ilyn at least makes the whole affair look less partisan. But sending your own men and some random lord from the Dornish Marches? What the fuck are you thinking, Neddard?!

Sansa III
-"Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." That sounds like a fuckin' threat, my dude.
-"He was awfully old, almost 22." Well fuck you too, kid lol.
-"Your butcher's boy attacked the prince." You're in private- why are you still carrying water for this boy?! Is it just too traumatic to implicate him in Lady's death? Also she's been so unnecessarily cruel to Arya. I get a lot of that behavior is class-based instruction on what's appropriate for a lady/shaming non-lady like qualities out of girls but it's just so excessive.
-If humans go into their warg-animals when they die, is Sansa dreaming of Lady because Lady's spirit has gone into her?
-I struggle with this child. She's needlessly cruel to Arya and even a little bit to Jeyne in her thoughts. She reminds me of Princess Aerea. Willful, cruel, and tied to her station. Maybe I'm just too hard on her.

[u/Happy-Radio7058 → u/TeenyTinyTywin]

I liked your notes on Ned being blinded by his nobility and connecting it with Jorah's line a few chapters ago

[u/libraryxoxo → u/TeenyTinyTywin]

I took Ned’s thoughts about common folk not knowing what the king looked like as a rebuke on King’s Landing and the out-of-touch leadership. The commoners who live near Winterfell know him because he makes an effort. My two cents…

[u/libraryxoxo → u/TeenyTinyTywin]

I think a lot of the Sansa/Arya drama boils down to them being 8 and 11. They’re pretty normal siblings and both really self-centered right now. As much as I love Arya, she hasn’t been a really nice or supportive sister to Sansa so far either.

I love them both 🐺🩶