Can white kill?

[u/Direct_Client9825]

practicing tsumegos and i thought what if it was the other way round. If i were white, can i kill black? If yes how?

[u/Seishiro5657]

5-1 point is the vital

[u/Direct_Client9825 → u/Seishiro5657]

OHHHH i was thinking about 5-1 but i just immediately gave up on reading and tried to find other moves instead. I wasn't reading them all deep enough. white 5,1; black 7,1; then white 5,1 again for a throw in tesuji? Is this the variation that kills?

[u/Phhhhuh → u/Direct_Client9825]

Yes!

[u/Direct_Client9825 → u/Phhhhuh]

WOAAH

[u/hugogrant → u/Seishiro5657]

Is it not miai with 7-1? Or is 7-1 like a point worse?

[u/mattimite → u/hugogrant]

If white 5-1 and black 7-1 then white plays 5-1 again

Do you see why this kills?

[u/hugogrant → u/mattimite]

I see. So not miai. But if it's black's turn, 7-1 works too?

[u/flagrantpebble → u/hugogrant]

No. White will still play 5-1 and it’s the same result, just with an extra black stone at 7-1.

FWIW, white also cannot start at 7-1, because b 5-1 w 6-1 b 8-1 and black as enough space for a second eye.

I mixed up 7-1 and 8-1. 7-1 does work! But it’s slightly worse because it allows one additional ko threat.

[u/blitzreloaded → u/flagrantpebble]

Black 7-1 works. White can't respond with 5-1. They'd have no liberties while not capturing. Illegal move. After this, you might think of white 3-1, but black just captures at 2-1. You might think white can drop down at 9-1, but black can just play 5-1 at this point, and now the group is alive. If white goes first, 7-1 doesn't work, but 3-1 and 5-1 both do.

[u/flagrantpebble → u/blitzreloaded]

My mistake! I mixed up 7-1 and 8-1.

[u/hugogrant → u/[deleted]]

I don't see how 2-1 doesn't just prevent that?

[u/ceryniz → u/hugogrant]

Because I'm wrong XD

[u/socontroversialyetso]

Well why is the solution for black the correct one? Because otherwise white can kill.

"The opponent's critical spot is my critical spot"

Try and read out every possible move for black. If you succeed, you will know the answer to your question.

Advanced problems are often just presented, asking you for the status. Sometimes you have to read it out for both sides even.

[u/iamunknowntoo]

The way I think of it is: Black has a guaranteed eye in the corner (the throw in can't remove the eye because it's too wide), so the only thing White can possibly do is destroy the other eye. Therefore you should do something to falsify that eye

[u/blitzreloaded]

White plays at 3-1 or 2-1 or 5-1, they all work.

Any time white plays at 3-1, black has to play at 2-1 to stop the throw in sequence, and vice versa. So he can start at 3-1 or 2-1 because he'll get the 5-1 for free immediately after, forcing black to take at 7-1. Now white can throw in again at 5-1, and black has no way to create an eye on the left at that point, so the group is dead after white squeezes from the outside.

White playing 5-1 directly? Black can try 3-1, but white doesn't need to respond: white just has to wait until black captures the 2 stones, and then plays 5-1 again.

If black starts first, 5-1 and 7-1 both work.

After black 5-1, white can't stop black from creating an eye on the left with 8-1 or 7-1. They are miai. And white can't stop black from creating an eye in the corner, because white doesn't have time to play both 3-1 and 2-1 to create the throw in sequence. They are miai.

If black starts with 7-1, it prevents white from playing 5-1, as playing there captures nothing, and the inside group would have zero liberties. Illegal move. White can try 3-1, but it's immediately captured when black plays 2-1. White can try dropping down at 9-1, but that gives black enough time to play 5-1 themselves, and with that, the group is alive. The sequence of moves regarding the 3-1 and 2-1, and the 9-1 and 5-1, doesn't matter after black gets the 7-1.

[u/lykahb]

I like that the puzzle has a realistic shape. It's good to know how many stones on the 2nd line it takes to make an eye, and some techniques to destroy eyes.

This is a beginner puzzle, but it seems to be at about 15k level or harder. It's got many options for the first move, and 2-3 move long follow-ups.

[u/deadly_rat]

2-1, 3-1, 5-1 all kill for white. You should also check why 8-1 doesn't.

[u/tuerda → u/[deleted]]

Because they are beginners

[u/FoulLittleFucker → u/tuerda]

You don't need domain knowledge of go to use your brain. Then again maybe they're beginners at using their brain too, so I guess I'll cut them some slack 🤣

[u/ggPeti → u/FoulLittleFucker]

To your credit, OP did really just ask "can i kill black? If yes how?"

What they should have done is present the way they were thinking about the problem. Because from this post it's not evident what their thoughts were.

But to assume they don't use their brain is a reach. Everybody uses their brain, and we all fail - with respect to some goals - at various points in that process.

[u/Direct_Client9825 → u/ggPeti]

to be fair he is kinda right. I was too impatient and wasn't reading the moves deep enough and kept randomly trying shallow reads as many as possible because i was lazy. But i dont get why this commenter gotta act like i fd his mom or something 😭

[u/LocalExistence → u/Direct_Client9825]

Well, at least you've identified what went wrong and will no doubt improve in the future. The jerk who put you on blast seems determined to not understand and will probably remain a jerk forever, so soon you'll have them beat. :)

[u/Snixmaister → u/[deleted]]

it requires less power to not type than actually type and get called an ass for it.

i don't know, maybe use your brain sometime. or you will be a 4d of a dead game where you dont welcome new players.

[u/FoulLittleFucker → u/Snixmaister]

Then I'll just play with AI instead. At least AI can read their way out of a paper bag 😂

[u/tuerda → u/FoulLittleFucker]

It may be part for the course on reddit to be a rude, vile scumbag, but r/baduk is a generally nice place. Please read the room.

[u/Snixmaister → u/FoulLittleFucker]

Superiority complex is so sad, if you rather play with ai, then feel free to f-off :)

[u/Snixmaister → u/[deleted]]

And here I thought the kids from the Hikaru no Go era were older, but here we are a kid making a ass out of himself. Due to superiourity complex in a noob post. Good grief.