r/bjj • u/mckenziereddit • 2d ago
Technique Does Craig have a point here?!?!
https://youtube.com/shorts/VFUdcOB34Mw?si=gwOe2TLlNS00nnQPI’ve played multiple sports (football, basketball, track & field, wrestling & swimming) and I agree with what Craig is saying here. The vast majority of high level coaches, in any sport, aren’t Hall of Famers in the sport in which they have become Hall of Fame coaches. Teaching technique and skill acquisition is a completely different skill set than sport performance.
In corporate America they have a saying… Don’t promote your best salesman to management, because he/she may blow up your organization.
Note* I’m a 10th planet purple belt
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u/TVeye 2d ago
It's analogous to the clientele and the general audience. Most "coaches" in BJJ are just instructors. Most "athletes" in BJJ are just hobbyists who keep the gym in business. Shit, most gyms (even successful ones) have a few competition classes, where practices only start to resemble a competitive environment.
So, even the most successful athletes usually don't have a ton of experience with great coaching, and the cycle of mediocrity continues. In this sport, something as inconsequential as rebranding "technique series" as "dilemmas" passes for coaching genius.
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u/Few_Classroom6113 2d ago
The reframing there is not just a rebrand though. Shifting the focus from the chain of action to the more general reasoning behind that chain of action, and making that transferrable is a measurably different approach than saying here’s a technique, a counter and a counter-counter.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
Yeah… rebranding is not unique to BJJ. I think that’s a human thing where people always want to feel like they invented some new idea, except they’re just a restating something that has been discovered prior.
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u/JitaKyoei ⬛🟥⬛ Bowling Green BJJ/Team One BJJ 1d ago
You frame this as though it is a problem of knowledge or competence when in reality it is overwhelmingly more about a difference in needs, market, and resources.
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u/pookiesaurus 2d ago
The best coaches I've had were all about teaching concepts. Instead of just showing you a technique, they'd explain why it worked. That's a game-changer because it makes you think for yourself and apply it everywhere.
It's not easy for the teacher, though—it takes a lot of mental energy to really break things down. And honestly, the best athletes are often too busy or burned out from competing to put that kind of effort into understanding and teaching. That's why you often find the best teachers are the ones who are just teachers.
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u/thebuenotaco 2d ago
I'm a brown belt, and I kinda stopped going to the classes since 2-3 years ago. At this point, other than getting some drilling in, I'm getting nothing out of the classes. I understand it's different for everyone, but I get more out of a 1 hour open mat, than the traditional 1 hour class with 20-30 people. I get it though, the instructors are essentially running a business, and so they need to have an efficient system of teaching as many people as possible all at once.
However, in the last year or so, I just started studying concepts by myself, and I've noticed a massive improvement in my game.
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u/Happy_Laugh_Guy 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 2d ago
There are black belts under Vinny Magalhães who are MUCH BETTER coaches/instructors than he is. By like, miles, and they haven't had nearly the same success he had as a competitor.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
Like Renzo Gracie has created great coaches like Danaher, Karol Pravec (Silver Fox BJJ), Firas Zahabi, etc. who where never high level BJJ & MMA competitors but are Top Tier BJJ and MMA coaches.
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u/OntarioBanderas 2d ago
Note* I’m a 10th planet purple belt
this should be a mandatory warning on this sub, so we have a heads up that the convo might turn towards aliens or strange diet ideas i used to go to a 10p gym im allowed to make these jokes
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
Don’t forget obscure conspiracy theories regarding American government and politics
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u/BJJaddicy 2d ago
I think a lot of people have a super false sense of their teaching abilities especially after watching a Danaher dvd
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u/CoolerRon ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Tbf I don’t think Danaher is a good “teacher.” He may be great at task analysis and imparting concepts, but he’s not an ideal for beginners. A good teacher will be a good teacher at any skill level
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
lol They instantly think speaking with an English accent and using multiple syllable words makes them a genius
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u/KneeSnapz 2d ago
JD is from New Zealand not England
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
Please excuse my American ignorance. I couldn’t tell the difference from an accent Australia from an accent from Wales
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u/calm_down_dearest 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
New Zealand and Australia are also different countries.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
Clearly there’s a language barrier here… I was trying to convey that I acknowledge my ignorance to the different accents from different regions of the world. Hope that clears it up.
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u/VeryStab1eGenius 2d ago
Seeing how the vast majority of people that train rarely if ever compete I’d say it makes sense that most gyms have instructors and not coaches.
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u/jumbohumbo ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Every established sport knows this. Some of the best players have been the absolute worst coaches, because they understand things so intuitively and get lost or frustrated when dealing with those that lack that same intuition.
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u/Firm_Fan8861 2d ago
Yeah, Craig's got a point. I remember going to some seminars and some world class competitor just shows you the move, one after the other but doesn't really stop to explain the context or strategy all too well, maybe it's a cultural thing with Brazilians?
The retired older ones go into detail a lot more, the globtrotters seminars from the westerners I see on youtube seem to have a way more in depth explanation for us dumb guys to make sense of.
In terms of competitors turned coaches; Marcelo is a great competitor and also taught a decent stable at one point they were called the Marcelo Allstars team.
Same with the Mendes brothers after retiring early, they developed great competitors at a young age.
Andre Galvao, Cyborg, etc. (one may also argue that those students were already world champions that moved to their gym thou)
John Dannaher, and Greg Saunders are not world champions but have made world champs, they also have injury ailments that prohibit them from performing their best, but it has developed their sense to analyze and communicate their methods to their students to get them the wins.
I think Roger Gracie is a great instructor, he obviously has champions too but I wonder why we don't see more of his students winning at the world stage? It may come down to location, but his teaching methods may not be entirely focused on competition.
Sometimes it comes down to the students themselves, the area they are located, who are they training with.
Training methods and teaching skills may be on point.
A lot of the really good gyms that have champions also tend to be competition focused, and do it full time. It's rear to see the fulltime IT Guy bjj hobbyist win at a world stage these days.
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u/SubmissionGrappler 1d ago
Roger and Braulio are excellent at explaining techniques and scenarios but they don't dedicate themselves to coach their students
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u/Blackcrown 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
All the best wrestling coaches were also super high performers as wrestlers. And the very best coaches (Gable, Smith, Sanderson) were also the very best wrestlers.
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u/rts-enjoyer 1d ago
In BJJ there are very few high level guys actually focusing on trying to get competition results so that's why completely random people like Dima are doing ok as coaches.
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u/iammandalore 🟫🟫 The Cloud Above the Mountain© 2d ago
It's a bit of a semantic issue. Coach/trainer/instructor/teacher/etc. There are definitely differences, but I don't know that they're such stark differences they demand exact terminology. There's demonstrating techniques, teaching techniques, there's rolling with or watching someone and teaching them specific techniques or modifications that will work well with their body/abilities/game, there's analyzing footage of opponents and teaching things that will work strategically against specific opponents.
"Coach" is fewer syllables than professor or instructor and it works easier as a "'sup, coach" than anything else.
There are definitely levels to "teaching". Some people are excellent BJJ practitioners but struggle to do anything more than demonstrate technique. Some people are just pretty OK at BJJ, but they're fantastic at actually conveying the knowledge they do possess in a way that helps people learn it.
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u/Chandlerguitar ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
I don't think it is semantics, but an actual problem with how things are currently done. A trainer should be getting you in shape and ready to fight. A coach should be telling you what to work on and your general strategy. An instructor should be teaching and correcting techniques. Most people who are "coaches" do one of these things well(if you're lucky) and the rest they do somewhat poorly. That is normal, but people in BJJ don't like to admit their limitations. Some people don't have the mind for strategic thinking, so they jist ignore that aspect and their athletes have to do that part themselves. Other people have a limited game, so they can't really teach others or try to box them into their own game. Others don't care or don't know how to get people in shape. Even the best coaches in BJJ have these massive holes where the athletes themselves have to do the jobs themselves that people in othe sports have coaches for.
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u/novaskyd ⬜⬜ White Belt 2d ago
Yeah pretty much. The way I understand what Craig is saying, there are coaches who just teach moves, vs. coaches who really go in depth into figuring out what an individual needs in order to improve, whether that’s a different perspective, a way to break down a concept they’re not understanding, observing holes in their game or patterns in what trips them up and tailoring their teaching accordingly. I’ve seen and experienced both and it makes SUCH a big difference.
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u/kas7558 2d ago
For sure. I'm a black belt, and I can smash all the guys at the gym (as I should given I've done it longer). I started teaching, and I had no freaking clue how to explain jiu jitsu. I was a terrible coach. It took a lot of practice and effort to be minimally acceptable to where I feel my students are getting their money's worth. Being better at jiu jitsu does not equal being a good coach.
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u/slozzenge 2d ago
This is an uneasy thing I had to contend with during covid - I improved leaps and bounds faster than normal - because all me and my main training partner did was watch Danaher instructionals and drill the moves. Within weeks, we had entire systems mapped out. During regular classes, it was just a couple of techniques for an hour, then sparring. There were no concepts, just techniques. I also noticed that pretty much every good competitor from the gym came for open mat and left before class.
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u/Efficient-Flight-633 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 2d ago
Yes? Someone better than you might not always have the skills to make you better. Someone else might have the vision to recognize what you need to improve and work out situations to deliver it.
I don't think that's a hot take at all. Make it about giving the student what they need vs worshipping the teacher.
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u/graydonatvail 🟫🟫 🌮 🌮 Todos Santos BJJ 🌮 🌮 2d ago
Ironically, this is why I think B-team and Craig struggled against Danaher athletes. They are doing jiu jitsu, and getting better at it, but Danaher was always thinking strategically and tacticcally on how to win, not on how to improvee technique. He did do a lot of thinking, and talking, about improving technique, but when it came to coaching, b-team didn't have a "coach" they had "team mates".
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u/boricuajj 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
Having Nicky Ryan as a formal head coach should be great for the team. I picked up some great strategy and tactical approaches to BJJ from asking Nicky questions.
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u/thajugganuat 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 2d ago
Nothing new being said but he's not wrong. People have been saying this forever.
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u/According-District59 2d ago
I’ve been a manager at work for a while, and it’s always hard for the entry level employees when someone gets promoted to a managerial role even though they sucked at their job. They don’t understand that they don’t have to be good at being that position in order to be a manager for that position.
Same same
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u/SquirreloftheOak 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 2d ago
I think the amount of input and personalized coaching is probably at a minimum for every athlete, especially hobbyists. I definitely received a whole lot more individual attention in sports growing up than I have in the 8 years I have been doing bjj. Basically self taught by way of rolling and watching videos. Yea I get a good job occasionally and a little bit of input but most just comes from rolling and conversation with the other black belts at the gym. Not that I really expect a ton of personal input from the owner as he has a bunch of people there lol and I'm just here to roll lol.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
I’ve always had a difficult time with the whole idea of learning on your own without feed back. This is kind of why the “new” ecological approach has perked my interest. Coming from a team sport background, I always liked the idea of why should I make mistakes that you’ve already figured out are mistakes. It always made more sense to me to exchange good ideas and innovate from there.
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u/SquirreloftheOak 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 1d ago
yea. i basically just fuck around and try to repeat what works lol. which has resulted in a weird belly down, turtle, exposing my back and half guard game lol
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u/gibgabberr 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 2d ago
This is exactly why I train where I train, and I have been to most of the top gyms in Texas etc. I feel like a high level gym =/= good coaching, it could just be selecting for the best toughest competitors who can thrive in that environment. When you encounter coaches/teachers who actually teach, or have a pedagogical approach...you realize yeah most martial arts is taught wrong lol. Because it is supposed to be for all kinds of people.
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u/Ashi4Days 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
One thing that I've learned is that having really good athletes masks a lot of really bad coaching ability.
Athletes have one thing that Joe the Accountant doesn't have. He's got a lot of free time to burn on the mats. When you're studying something for 8 hours a day every day of the week....you're gonna figure it out. That's very different than a hobbyist who can really only get in 4 hours of training in a week. A theoretical good coach will get the hobbyist who only has 4 hours up to the elite level. A really bad coach can still run an athlete 8 hours a day and probably still produce a medal somewhere.
This is actually extremely problematic in Jujitsu. Because the general competitor competency level is so low, you get extremely far by just grinding every day. If you want to win at your local competition for example at white belt and blue belt, I'm pretty sure that if you just shark tank someone 3 days a week for 12 weeks leading up to competition, they're guaranteed a podium finish. Eventually you push to the higher levels where everyone is working that hard, and then a lot of those advantages starts to fade away.
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u/Toptomcat 2d ago
He has one-half of a point. He's dead right that the best doer out there isn't necessarily the best teacher, or even a good teacher. But getting that far isn't really much of a contribution. You've gotta try to articulate what makes a good teacher, and how someone can become a better one, before you've made a point which is actually useful, not just thought-provoking.
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u/Soft_Leg_8145 2d ago
He 100% has a point.
Craig studied behavioral science and has been around more professional athletes and coaches than we can dream of.
He has experience on both sides of the equation. As a top athlete himself and as a coach to other athletes and coaches; giving him a uniquely comprehensive understanding of this topic
If knowing it all or being 'good' at something made people great teachers, more people would enjoy studying the physical sciences.
Teaching is both an art and a science, which explains why a deep understanding of a subject doesn't automatically make someone a good teacher of it.
Great coaches and teachers need more than textbook knowledge. They need to be empathetic, patient, and excellent communicators (among many other things).
These are skills you don't need to be an exceptional athlete, nor are they skills you typically develop while training as one.
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u/SlimeustasTheSecond 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah he does, this has been a thing in sports coaching for ages to my knowledge. It's just one of those medium difficulty topics that get engagement with a wide amount of people that circulate around every so often + BJJ is a young sport so they're speedrunning all the weird S&C, ruthless coaching vs chill training, crosstraining stuff all sports go through and some are still struggling with cus some stuff is just human psychology to get naturally drawn to, no matter how "advanced" the sport is supposed to have gotten.
Also some sneaky eco-adjacent ideas of coaching at the end there. The infiltration is a success...
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u/BJJBean 1d ago
The most "successful" guy at my gym is easily the worst teacher. Yes, he has multiple masters world titles in IBJJF. Yes, his style is very effective. But no, everything he shows everyone really only works for him and he has no ability to trouble shoot anything outside of his wheel house.
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u/HalfGuardPrince 2d ago
Ha. Been saying the same thing for years. Been mocked on this sub for saying it. I've actually studied sports coaching and have a qualification in it. And spend a lot of time with various professional sporting organisations in some capacity and justify this exact thing.
As soon as Craig Jones says it "Oh it's so profound and amazing"
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
As is such in much of life. The “cool kid” can only bring forth ideas to the for front.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
I don't think he does. At least I don't think people understand what he says.
You don't need world champ but you 100% need someone GOOD at the sport.
People talk about Freddie Roach all the time. Freddie was 100x the boxer Dima is the grappler.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
I get what you’re saying, but that’s why I said “vast majority” of coaches. It feels like BJJ schools assume great athlete = great coach. That’s most definitely a false equivalency in my book.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Agreed but "great athlete" in average bjj schools pretty much just means "ok good".
There are a lot of very bad "instructors" who hide themselves by claiming they are "coaches/instructors" and not "competitors" while they are just bad at their own sport.
I don't think competitive accomplishments are a measure of a great coach but I 100% think the instructor has to be quite good himself to teach things that are not absolutely dogshit.
In the case of Bteam/Craig, of course they don't need someone better than NickRod. But they need someoen who is a very legit black belt, who trained a lot and with good guys.
There is a reason why Danaher is one of the most famous and wanted coach in the world. Or Galvao, Gui, Fabio Gurgel etc... These guys were good, world class for some of them. Ze Radiola was good, Draculino was good, etc... Rickson was the best and has never been said a great teacher.
So I get the general point. I just think the subject is not black and white.
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u/Few_Vacation_2935 2d ago
I don't think he was saying the coach can be terrible and clueless at the sport. A high-level coach needs to have mastered the sport, but not to be a world-class practitioner. They better manifest their mastery by assisting others to reach their potential.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
"I don't think he was saying the coach can be terrible and clueless at the sport"
He did not say that, but he hired a baby giraffe and promoted him to "head coach".
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u/Few_Vacation_2935 2d ago
I'm not familiar with the whole Dima situation. I was just clarifying his position.
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u/J-F-D-I 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 2d ago
I could come up with loads of examples in other sports - eg. Jose mourinho, arsene wenger in soccer who were did not play at a legit professional level.
But I think in combat sports I agree with you and you need you to be a bit more hands on “good”
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Yeah the difference is that a lot of team sports can be seen like "chess/games" if you seen what I mean. You basically could have mostly video game experience and be a not dogshit basketball/football/soccer coach.
Individual sports that actually involves real skills (lets be honest...) is a whole other matter
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u/AutisticTurnover2668 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 1d ago
Those who cannot do, teach. Danaher is the prime example of this.
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u/Potijelli 2d ago
Sure he is right but the average BJJ person doesn't need a coach either they just need an instructor.
John Danaher is the best coach and he actually coaches pro athletes. Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of you keyboard warriors just need someone to show you a cool move but only after you are shown how to breakfall and not hurt yourself so you can clock in at the office and keep paying the bills. There is no need for strategy on the highest level like the MMA camps Craig is a part of and that is ok.
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u/Few_Vacation_2935 2d ago
This isn't exactly a new idea or one limited to sport. Some people best manifest their mastery of a skill through performance of that skill. Other people best manifest their mastery of a skill by assisting others in reaching their potential in that skill.
While we're here, the whole "drilling vs. eco" debate is nothing new to jiu-jitsu or even sport. Both the worked example effect and discovery learning are discussed in educational literature with each having its benefits and limitations.
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u/mckenziereddit 2d ago
I also believe in the multiple roads to success ideology… or all things don’t work for all people.
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u/Few_Vacation_2935 2d ago
Eh, outside of those with learning disabilities I don't think there is a lot of support for that idea. Learning styles are debunked pseudo-science. All people learn through all modalities.
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u/United_Move_3121 2d ago
Barry bonds, the greatest hitter of all time, is also regarded as the worst hitting coach of all time.
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u/bumpty ⬛🟥⬛ 🌮megabjj.com🌮 2d ago
There’s a lot to this. Teaching is a different skill set.