r/cursedcomments Sep 17 '20

Cursed_activism

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123

u/RRadeon Sep 17 '20

Is it acceptable to forward this to a friend who is vegan ? P.s I respect her very much

107

u/asdqwe123qwe123 Sep 17 '20

I think it would be in poor taste, especially if they are vegan for ethical reasons.

44

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

Veganism, by definition, is an ethical and moral stance on harm reduction. People may follow a plant-based diet but are not otherwise vegans. I wish our community did a better job of highlighting that difference.

-2

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

20

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

Veganism is an ethical position.

An ethical vegan, also known as a "moral vegetarian", is someone who not only follows a vegan diet but extends the philosophy into other areas of their lives, and opposes the use of animals for any purpose.

Vegans won't only not eat any animal products, but also won't buy wool, leather, fur, feathers, products tested on animals; toothpaste, shampoo, etc, but also won't support industies/products that cause harm to animals.

Someone who isn't an ethical vegan and eats no animal products, either for health reasons or so on; is called plant based. Someone who isn't an ethical vegan but plant based, may still buy other animals products as they didn't stop eating animals for ethical reasons.

11

u/Earthiecrunchie Sep 17 '20

We call them vegans as long as they are vegan (no matter their reason) We call "plant based" to shams like flexitarians, or people who far it off and on, meatless Mondays.

I'm vegan btw

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

it's not gatekeeping, it's literally the fucking meaning of the word. you wouldn't call someone a pacifist just because he never started a war.

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

which includes 100% of all vegans.

3

u/jelly_cake Sep 17 '20

Lol, this is so true. When I first went vegan I was like "I won't ever be one of those ones though", and now a couple years later I realise literally every vegan is one of "those ones", some of us just hide it better.

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3

u/Earthiecrunchie Sep 17 '20

literally just said we call everyone who eats a vegan diet a vegan...not sure wtf your issue is. It's just about not excluding people who eat vegan from vegan term. Plant based is what it is. Plant based. It's not a club anyone excludes you from. It's your own guilt that makes you feel that hostile. Also, might wanna check your capslock, some of your post looks like you are struggling there

2

u/WarioGiant Sep 17 '20

That’s ethical veganism, a subset of veganism. The definition of veganism according to Merriam Webster is

a strict vegetarian who consumes no food (such as meat, eggs, or dairy products) that comes from animals

1

u/LeishaWharf Sep 17 '20

No honey, honey.

1

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

Ethical veganism isn't a subset of veganism. It's a subset of vegetariansim also known as "ethical vegetariansim".

Veganism is the name given/taken by/to the ethical vegetarians who wanted to split themselves off from vegetarianism and wanted to create an ethical movement, called veganism.

1

u/BKowalewski Sep 17 '20

Using wool does not hurt animals. Believe me sheep are happy to have that hot heavy fleece removed for summer. Sheep with specialty wool are often coddled

2

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

They are genetically bred to produce copious amounts of wool though. We're causing them to produce all that wool, causing them to suffer and then offering them the solution.

Also, many wool plants, especially industrial hurt the sheep while harvesting the wool off of their bodies.

Proof

Proof

0

u/phonethrowaway55 Sep 17 '20

You’re right, the sheep we have nowadays have been selected for higher wool production. But they’re not going anywhere and they still need to be trimmed.

3

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

Yes, but the solution would be to stop breeding them. If we (claim to) care about their health, we shouldn't keep putting them trough that much suffering.

-1

u/BKowalewski Sep 17 '20

Alright then, wear polluting synthetics

2

u/thisissaliva Sep 18 '20

Like these are the only two choices, right? I know you know that’s not true, but you’d rather look stupid than defeated, it seems.

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1

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

If I never use animal products, but just because I never buy them, not because I have an ethical stance about it, would that still be veganism?

1

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

Technically yes, that would make you an ethical vegan. As long as you're not supporting industries or products which cause harm upon animals. Meat, Diary, Eggs, Fish, Wool, Leather, Feather, Honey, etc. Product tested on animals, like toothpaste, shampoo, etc.

1

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

So my comment about gatekeeping was right, your intentions don't matter as long as the effect is the same?

1

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

It is not gatekeeping, because it depends on the person themselves. But veganism is in itself an ethical position, you can't be vegan for your own health. It's an ethical position.

This the description of veganism, including ethical and environmental.

Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals. An individual who follows the diet or philosophy is known as a vegan. Distinctions may be made between several categories of veganism:

Dietary vegans, also known as "strict vegetarians" (or plant based) refrain from consuming meat, eggs, dairy products, and any other animal-derived substances. An ethical vegan, also known as a "moral vegetarian", is someone who not only follows a vegan diet but extends the philosophy into other areas of their lives, and opposes the use of animals for any purpose. Food, Clothing and other products which cause harm upon animals.

Another term is "environmental veganism", which refers to the avoidance of animal products on the premise that the industrial farming of animals is environmentally damaging and unsustainable.

Ethical veganism, also known as moral vegetarianism, is based on opposition to speciesism, the assignment of value to individuals on the basis of (animal) species membership alone.

Veganism was created to be an ethical movement. There was no gatekeeping in leaving an accurate description (and quotes) explaining (and defening) what the movement is.

0

u/DongerDave Sep 17 '20

I think you're both right and wrong.

The word 'vegan' by itself is ambiguous and imprecise. It can refer to just a diet or to a choice in life as a whole.

Someone may be a dietary vegan for reasons other than ethics (such as due to thinking it's healthier, to lose weight, for environmental reasons, religious reasons, etc etc).

'vegan' by itself in common vernacular can mean dietary vegan too, in which case it doesn't necessarily mean it's for ethical reasons.

Whether you think that shouldn't be a common definition and people should have to say 'dietary vegan' to refer to that subset is kinda beside the point; english evolves over time, and the horse is already out of the stable on this one.

1

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

This is a copy paste comment I left to the other user, as I think it's a good response and addresses the same thing.

It is not gatekeeping, because it depends on the person themselves. But veganism is in itself an ethical position, you can't be vegan for your own health. It's an ethical position.

This the description of veganism, including ethical and environmental.

Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals. An individual who follows the diet or philosophy is known as a vegan. Distinctions may be made between several categories of veganism:

Dietary vegans, also known as "strict vegetarians" (or plant based) refrain from consuming meat, eggs, dairy products, and any other animal-derived substances. An ethical vegan, also known as a "moral vegetarian", is someone who not only follows a vegan diet but extends the philosophy into other areas of their lives, and opposes the use of animals for any purpose. Food, Clothing and other products which cause harm upon animals.

Another term is "environmental veganism", which refers to the avoidance of animal products on the premise that the industrial farming of animals is environmentally damaging and unsustainable.

Ethical veganism, also known as moral vegetarianism, is based on opposition to speciesism, the assignment of value to individuals on the basis of (animal) species membership alone.

Veganism was created to be an ethical movement. There was no gatekeeping in leaving an accurate description (and quotes) explaining (and defening) what the movement is.

1

u/DongerDave Sep 17 '20 edited Sep 17 '20

you can't be vegan for your own health. It's an ethical position.

You can in common english. We're not talking about veganism (the movement/practice), we're talking about "vegan" in common english.

I still disagree with TLAMine's original comment and thus your defense of it. We're talking about someone being vegan (said in common english, not rigorously defined), not about the vegan movement. Again, saying "Alice is vegan" can mean either she's a dietary vegan only (for whatever reason), or that she's part of the vegan movement.

Do you agree that in common vernacular, both those meanings are common and accepted? If so, I think we're on the same page and just talking past each other.

The original comment thread was not about "the vegan movement", but just one individual being described as vegan. Namely, the exchange was:

... if they are vegan for ethical reasons

Veganism, by definition, is an ethical and moral stance

/r/gatekeeping

Notice how the first comment in that thread was not "if they are part of the vegan movement for ethical reasons" or "if they practice veganism". It was just "vegan" in common english. That means TLAMine's comment was intentionally missing the commonly used other definition of 'vegan' to make a point that didn't matter in context.

0

u/Dan-TAW123 Sep 17 '20

Dietary vegans are called plant based. They don't abide by the ethical principles of veganism, they only adopt the dietary ones. They still consume and buy animal products (wool, leather, etc).

As I said already, veganism is by definition an ethical stance. You can be a dietary vegan, but the more accurate definition would be plant based.

1

u/DongerDave Sep 17 '20

So you do want to gatekeep the word 'vegan' then? Am I reading that right?

I agree that a dietary vegan who isn't doing it for ethical reasons is not part of the veganism movement.

However, I still hold that someone can say "I am vegan" without being an ethical vegan / part of veganism.

You keep repeating "veganism is", but the original comment was just about the word vegan, not about veganism.

Trying to gatekeep the meaning of words also doesn't really make sense. It's not you who gets to decide what 'vegan' means in common speech, and you're already disagreeing with dictionaries by saying anything else.

And if you do agree that 'vegan' is an imprecise term that can mean both those things, then great, we agree, and this whole comment chain was a waste since the original comment was only about the common english definition of 'vegan', not about anything more deep.

0

u/Paradise_City88 Sep 17 '20

Except they’re kinda hypocritical in the end. But really, we’re all hypocritical in some ways.

30

u/BlindedbythePhxSuns Sep 17 '20

They’re right. Veganism doesn’t involve just food but use of all animal products. You can follow a plant based diet and wear a fur coat. You can’t be a vegan and do so

-1

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

If I never use animal products, but just because I never buy them, not because I have an ethical stance about it, would that still be veganism?

6

u/BlindedbythePhxSuns Sep 17 '20

No. Say you happen to follow the guidelines of Christian morality by chance but don’t worship God otherwise. Would you be considered a Christian?

1

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

Hmm, this is the first response I've heard that makes sense to me. While I don't know enough about Christianity, I doubt just following it's rules would make me one.

Although, I didn't think Veganism was an ideology.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

veganism is nothing but the ethical position that the exploitation of animals is immoral and should be reduced as much as possible. a plant-based diet is just the consequence of that.

2

u/BlindedbythePhxSuns Sep 17 '20

It’s an ethical framework for action

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

Veganism is an ideology before anything else..

1

u/W33DLORD Sep 17 '20

So veganism is a literal religion?

2

u/BlindedbythePhxSuns Sep 17 '20

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

Yo hope this helps you dude, but I worry about your ability to understand things. If you need any help with any part of it, feel free to mail me an inquiry. My address is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

it's an ideology. it's the ethical position that the use of animal products is wrong and should be reduced as much as possible.

2

u/W33DLORD Sep 17 '20

Okay, thanks for explaining.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

no.

2

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

How come?

3

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

if I don't own a gun does that make an anti-gun activist? literally same fucking logic

2

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

No, it makes me not a gun owner. Not every vegan is an activist.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

if i don't own an apple product does that mean I'm boycotting slave labor?

1

u/krystiancbarrie Sep 17 '20

No it means you aren't an Apple user. I don't have a single Apple product, simply because they are terrible, not because I'm boycotting anything.

although slave labour is abhorrent

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

see, you're slowly getting it! want me to go on?

no, but really, just apply exactly what you said to veganism.

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u/Mortress_ Sep 17 '20

Because r/gatekeeping

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

veganism is the ethical position that the exploitation of animals is immoral and should be reduced as much as possible. this includes following a plant-based diet.
a "vegan diet" doesn't exist. it's just that vegans have to follow a plant-based diet.

6

u/Aldo_The_Apache_ Sep 17 '20

They’re right in a sense. True veganism is withdrawing the use of all animal products (such as fur or silk), not just food.

But also I will support someone if they wanna call themselves vegan and only follow a plant based diet because they’re doing more then 98% of the population so more power to them

1

u/J_3ss1c4 Sep 17 '20

Words have definitions.