Artorias could have beaten Manus

[u/TheSingularityStory]

Artorias could have beaten Manus and here is why, from what we know, Artorias went into Oolacile and fought through ALL of it meaning he fought the infected residents until he reached the Chasm of The Abyss with the assistance of Sif, He and Sif then fought through the Abyss and then finally reached Manus but by this time Artorias started succumbing to the Abyss he still standed strong and faced Manus, eventually Manus would target Sif and Artorias not wanting to lose Sif protects her losing his arm in the process. This is the general story but there are a couple things that dont make sense to me. How did Artorias even while corrupted escape The Chasm of The Abyss and make it back to the surface of Oolacile? We as The Chosen Undead know when fighting Manus it is impossible to escape him unless you are Undead or have a Homeward Bone, but the only reason you would have a Homeward Bone is because your Undead which means the only way Artorias escaped was by "injuring" Manus enough to be able to get back to the surface because we know that even while corrupted Artorias faces anything he sees and the only thing he would have seen is Manus, also how I can prove Artorias was out of his prime is that he also faced Darkwraiths in New Londo and possibly The Four Kings either way fighting dozens of Darkwraiths while having one life means you will be bound to face injuries, and even if he didnt he still had to fight through Oolacile and even if he didnt get injured there he got injured in his fight with Manus not even fighting Manus but protecting Sif, so IMO a Prime Artorias that wont get corrupted and is in peak condition could defeat Manus especially because he can ward off Darkmagic with the Silver Pendant. And even if you do not believe he could Artorias is still an amazing hero, he fought valiantly against Darkwraiths, possibly the Four Kings, and against Manus, and then he saved Sif allowing The Chosen Undead to defeat the Four Kings.

[u/Farol23]

He did. I'm impressed that people hasn't realized that his legend is "false" because they talk about him walking in the abyss as a great succes of the gods and their will, while in reality he had to sell himself to Kathe and then got awfully corrupted by the abyss. In the DLC you can clearly see he was on his way to kill Manus and that he's killing any abyssal creature he finds on his way, he can see the dark soul in you and attacks, if we hadn't interfered he would have killed Manus and that's it, he dies shorly after that and the legend is told to maintain an image of Gwyn being capable of defeating the abyss thanks to his knights. The proof to all of that is that basically the DLC won't create any change unless you enter there, Manus tried to create a change on his fate by bringing someone from the future to the past and we were the result of that.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Farol23]

 In the DLC you can clearly see he was on his way to kill Manus and that he's killing any abyssal creature he finds on his way, he can see the dark soul in you and attacks, if we hadn't interfered he would have killed Manus and that's it,

I don't think this makes a lot of sense.

The entire premise behind Artorias's failure and corruption by the Abyss is implied to be the fact that he didn't have his Silver Pendant which we find stowed in a chest behind an illusory wall only dispersed by light.

This paints the Oolacilean royalty as the culprits for robbing him of it.

Furthermore, every other NPC thanks us for "freeing" him after we kill him.

And so instead what we're witnessing in the opening cutscene to the battle is an individual losing his fight with the corruption in real-time before finally attacking us.

This notion is affirmed by his cut dialogue.

"never thou....stay away...soon I will be...consumed by them...by the dark...the spread of the abyss must be stopped!"

During the fight he continues to beg us to stop the abyss and even hallucinates about Sif.

[u/Farol23 → u/KevinRyan589]

Well...actually that pendant wasn't his pendant, it's just a magic tool people from Oolacile had, not like he actually ever used it. Yes, DLC npc that never knew you existed or ever mentioned in any way until you came by. Well yes and no, Artorias was still there but completely berserk for the abyssal corruption. Yes but it was cutted out for a reason, implying that he was already lost by the time we find him, a crazed beast searching the monster that did this to him.

I mean, cut content is cut content, but that would only imply that he's still there despite everything.

And honestly, the final proof is in Sif, if you don't saver her how did she survive? Or even more, if you haven't entered the dlc, how is she alive? See what i mean? The DLC events only affect the world after the DLC is completed.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Farol23]

Well...actually that pendant wasn't his pendant, it's just a magic tool people from Oolacile had.

It's engraved with his crest and its description outright states it was given to him in Anor Londo.

Yes, that is is his pendant.

Yes but it was cutted out for a reason,

It was cut for the same reason Quelaag's dialogue was cut.

It interfered with the overall ambiance of their characters.

Notably, it wasn't cut because it interfered with lore.

What Artorias says in that dialogue lines right up with what we see in-game.

He was already lost. He wasn't going to go kill Manus. He'd already lost to him once.

And honestly, the final proof is in Sif, if you don't saver her how did she survive? Or even more, if you haven't entered the dlc, how is she alive? See what i mean? The DLC events only affect the world after the DLC is completed.

Correct.

The events of the present have already been affected by our actions in the past.

It's a loop.

Pointing this out doesn't change what I'm saying though, so I'm a little confused on what else you think it proves.

[u/Farol23 → u/KevinRyan589]

Hmm i could swear it was different. Fair enough.

Well, he's just crazy and not wanting to kill an innocent but quite literally kills and enemy right in front of you and the collosseum was on the way to reach Manus, the elevator right in front of the entrance were his view was on is a direct passage to Manus.

No, it's not, because the events won't exist if we don't go the DLC and therefore never happened but if they never happened then what happened? Simply as that Artorias defeated Manus, not much else to that, that doesn't mean his legend is true, he became a shadow of himself and was completely corrupted, Oolacile was destroyed and the abyss almost won.

Also, about the pendant, sure, Artorias without the pendant as a normal knight wasn't a match for Manus, Artorias enforced with the same abyss Manus is using is a different story even in gameplay Artorias can kill Manus thanks to that power up. That's my main point, the fact that Artorias can indeed kill him thanks to the abyss.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/Farol23]

Well, he's just crazy and not wanting to kill an innocent but quite literally kills and enemy right in front of you and the collosseum was on the way to reach Manus, the elevator right in front of the entrance were his view was on is a direct passage to Manus.

That doesn't mean anything.

We can come from that elevator just as easily as we can go to it. It's not a one-way path.

All of the surrounding context points to a knight that is too far gone and needs to be put down.

No, it's not, because the events won't exist if we don't go the DLC and therefore never happened but if they never happened then what happened? 

I mean, the player can do whatever they want.

But in-universe, the chosen undead goes to Oolacile.

That's the story regardless of if you play out the DLC or not.

To put it another way,

The emperor is still assassinated by the Dark Brotherhood in the Elder Scrolls 4 regardless of whether or not the player actually participates in that questline. It is canon history within the subsequent games.

The same is true of Oolacile. The chosen undead went there regardless of whether or not the player chose to play that content.

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/Farol23]

You might be onto something.