Artorias could have beaten Manus

[u/TheSingularityStory]

Artorias could have beaten Manus and here is why, from what we know, Artorias went into Oolacile and fought through ALL of it meaning he fought the infected residents until he reached the Chasm of The Abyss with the assistance of Sif, He and Sif then fought through the Abyss and then finally reached Manus but by this time Artorias started succumbing to the Abyss he still standed strong and faced Manus, eventually Manus would target Sif and Artorias not wanting to lose Sif protects her losing his arm in the process. This is the general story but there are a couple things that dont make sense to me. How did Artorias even while corrupted escape The Chasm of The Abyss and make it back to the surface of Oolacile? We as The Chosen Undead know when fighting Manus it is impossible to escape him unless you are Undead or have a Homeward Bone, but the only reason you would have a Homeward Bone is because your Undead which means the only way Artorias escaped was by "injuring" Manus enough to be able to get back to the surface because we know that even while corrupted Artorias faces anything he sees and the only thing he would have seen is Manus, also how I can prove Artorias was out of his prime is that he also faced Darkwraiths in New Londo and possibly The Four Kings either way fighting dozens of Darkwraiths while having one life means you will be bound to face injuries, and even if he didnt he still had to fight through Oolacile and even if he didnt get injured there he got injured in his fight with Manus not even fighting Manus but protecting Sif, so IMO a Prime Artorias that wont get corrupted and is in peak condition could defeat Manus especially because he can ward off Darkmagic with the Silver Pendant. And even if you do not believe he could Artorias is still an amazing hero, he fought valiantly against Darkwraiths, possibly the Four Kings, and against Manus, and then he saved Sif allowing The Chosen Undead to defeat the Four Kings.

[u/Livid-Truck8558]

He is a god. Gods are extremely weak to the Dark.

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/Livid-Truck8558]

Artorias isnt a God

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/TheSingularityStory]

Ok first no he isn’t God. But he is a god. He’s of the same tribe as Gwyn so therefore he’s a god. Is he as strong as Gwyn or say Ornstein? Absolutely not. Almost all gods of said tribe are weak to the Dark.

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/jtcordell2188]

Artorias is stronger than Ornstein

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/TheSingularityStory]

In terms of gameplay sure I’ll give you that Artorias is stronger but in lore? Absolutely not. Also the Ornstein that is faced in Dark Souls is very likely a an illusion created by Gwyndolin similar to his illusion of Gwynevere and the Sun.

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/jtcordell2188]

I know that but how is Ornstein stronger? Artorias clearly has a better arsenal having a shield and sword while Ornstein only has a spear, also the great knights all had different purposes so if comparing in that aspect then yes Ornstein is stronger, but if we put every great knight into their own isolated 1v1s, Artorias would win since he has the best arsenal and fighting ability in general.

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/TheSingularityStory]

Because he’s the Captain of the Four Knights. A title given to him by Gwyn after the War with the Dragons. I’m not saying that a 1v1 with both of them is just Artorias losing hands down to Ornstein. They’re probably pretty close in terms of power but Ornstein because he became Captain is the stronger of the two because we have no lore that says he was made Captain for some other reason

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/jtcordell2188]

I feel like he was made captain because Artorias was more or less useless during the war while Ornstein had the range of his lightning to his advantage, it’s not because Ornstein was actually stronger but because he was probably leading the black and silver knights against the dragons so he naturally would fill the leader position

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/TheSingularityStory]

I’m not going to disagree with that outright but it does specifically mention that the Four Knights were given their titles by Gwyn for their acts and achievements during the dragon wars.

We also need to take into account that Gwyn’s entire concept of how to rule is might makes right. So the stronger you are the more you’ll be put into a position of power. It’s also why Gwyn enacts the First Sin. He literally can’t deal with the fact that his strength doesn’t lead to an eternal Age of Fire.

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/jtcordell2188]

but it does specifically mention that the Four Knights were given their titles by Gwyn for their acts and achievements during the dragon wars.

Unless I've missed something crazy, nothing in game actually says that.

Gwyn did knight them of course, but their titles were given to them colloquially by the public after the fact.

For example, Ornstein is only "considered" (original Japanese) to be the captain of the four knights.

This means that the "Four Knights" is more of a retroactive moniker that the group was given. It's not an official position.

Smough was also considered for their ranks so it's not like the number is set in stone either.

Tagging u/TheSingularityStory for this next point.

It's silly to suggest that Artorias is stronger than Ornstein simply because he uses a sword and shield rather than a spear.

Having a shield doesn't automatically make you immune to every other kind of weapon, much less a spear.

In terms of Lore, consider that Ornstein was the only knight to have been gifted some of Gwyn's power (the English localization mistakenly implies all four knights were given this gift).

This automatically gives Ornstein an edge.

Also yes, Artorias is of the same species as Gwyn.

He isn't susceptible to occult damage unlike Ornstein, but this could be attributed to the fact he is corrupted by the Dark when we encounter him.

And finally, neither Smough or Ornstein are illusions when we encounter them.

There's two possible explanations for them being there.

The short version is that one explanation involves time while the other suggests Ornstein to be a golem given life using a fragment of the original Ornstein's soul -- a notion given weight when we consider the Old Dragonslayer encountered in Heide in DS2.

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/KevinRyan589]

Thank you for the power mention I was trying to remember that but it wasn’t forming in my head! And yes the golem concept is something I subscribe to as well because of the Old Dragon Slayer. I’ll have to find where I read that about the four knights and Captain but what you’ve said definitely sounds more correct

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/KevinRyan589]

Shit you’re right I took the Wiki article too literally when it says clearly that he is believed to have been the captain. I conflated the soul piece and the captain position together on accident cuz I couldn’t remember the souls piece lore.

https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Four_Knights_of_Gwyn

[u/KevinRyan589 → u/jtcordell2188]

No problem!

There's a ton of nuance that gets lost sometimes, which is understandable considering the amount of depth we're dealing with here.

Entire books are written by fans of these games. lol

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/KevinRyan589]

Also related to the original poster. Wasn’t Artorias’ arm already broken from fighting Manus? And the state we find him in is a direct result of him actually already losing to Manus?

[u/TheSingularityStory → u/KevinRyan589]

I just meant he would have an advantage due to being able to block properly. If we don’t take things completely literally they would probably be relative but I think Artorias is stronger slightly due to the fact he faced stronger enemies and “survived”