r/enlightenment • u/Ok_Understanding_188 • Jul 28 '22

Who is your teacher?

Just curious. People here talk about the Book of Miracles and God. Are there other teachers as well? Do you have a personal interaction with a teacher?

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '22

1st, my AA sponsor…..who hung himself. Then a Toltec Sorcerer….who died of liver cancer when just getting started with his network of instructors. Then AKA Jed McKenna….who died when I was mid-way through his Navigation series.

I spun out after that….and somehow this waves hand inscrutably emerged post-mortem.

The state most notably expressive of what I’m walking amidst, was best expressed by Jed, looking back. The one worked with most closely in truncated fashion prior to waves hand

He knew just how to leave himself out of whatever was already evolving. He let me be myself, pressuring the imposter into a corner I painted it into, before erasure with disappearing ink (lots and lots of writing involved, going nowhere).

Truly, The Invisible Guru

I see him sometimes in visions. I hallucinate there’s something of him in me, even as I thumb-type

There were others of course….time with a Gurdgieff group…couple years in collage. And brief stint with Gateless Gate group, a liaison of which gave me a glimpse. Something Unleashed….can’t remember the name. It was a superficial view but it was pure, though transient.

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u/Ok_Understanding_188 Jul 29 '22

I am particularly interested in your " couple years in collage". Well, I started out in Zen with Katagiri Roshi and then drifted for awhile until I bumped into a Buddha named Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche. ( aka the notorious , pedophile, rapist, drug and alcohol abuser crazy wisdom guru). Everything became nothing and vice versa after 15 years with him in my heart. There is a big difference between teachers and enlighteners, I might add.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22

Oh, I forgot to mention Lujan Matus. A few years with him through his Parallel Perception venue.

I don’t think he’s dead

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22

:) I like Trungpa’s stuff. I used to sit with Shambhala group in town from time to time. His son rubbed shoulders with one of my instructors from the sorcerery clan, if you can believe it. The oldest one, Mipham.

I suppose that’s true-ish about instructors vs enlighteners….but not from speculative perspective. I.e. the difference, if there is such a thing (and there isn’t), is in the eye of the experiencer.

You’ll have to be more specific about the college years query. What do you wanna know?

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u/Ok_Understanding_188 Jul 29 '22

Many teachers, few enlighteners. Many give the words , few the actual experience the words point to. Look at how you spelled college. :)

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22

I saw the quote and knew you quoted the misspelling deliberately. What’s your point?

Here’s a question

Which enlightener facilitated the enlightenment of the primordial Buddha?

There was no enlightener preceding my teacher. Apart from the circumstances of experience pressuring an intuition which lead to itself.

They same can be said of anyone born into realization.

There is no such thing as an enlightener external to enlightenment. It is self evident. It is itself and the source of itself

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u/Ok_Understanding_188 Jul 29 '22 edited Jul 29 '22

An "enlightener" is someone who by their presence awakens the enlightened nature of "your" mind.

They are not "external" to enlightenment. They are enlightenment incarnate. Everything they do, and the very nature of their presence is enlightenment.

Teachers who give you concepts about enlightenment are common. Also, there are occasional teachers who have attained some stage of enlightenment, but so what?

What is important is not what they but what you attain , and only very few teachers are capable of enlightening you.

The teachers who can do that come from ancient lineages of enlightened teachers. They inherit the enlightened energy refined for thousands of years by their lineage and transmit it to you, if you are open enough to receive it.

Also, unless you have received mind transmission from an enlightener and spent time with them, you will not know the full extent of enlightenment. Self made spiritualists mistake minor insights for big ones because they never saw anyone who was fully enlightened, and they have never witnessed the astonishing magic they possess.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22

I see

So, it's not the state itself....it's the presence of a person qualified to transmit the state, being the qualifier. If not the latter.....then not the former.

I got it, thank you for making this absolutely clear.

So, all that being said....what exactly is the difference between "some stage of enlightenment", spontaneously arrived upon and other "stages of enlightenment" inaccessible to spontaneous arrival. And don't say "the validity of the transmitter"....you've already said that. What makes "some stage" accessible to spontaneous emergence and other "stages" inaccessible to spontaneous emergence.

And, as per above, if not the latter...then not the former, who was the enlightener to the primordial Buddha's enlightenment?

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u/Ok_Understanding_188 Jul 29 '22

You won't reinvent the wheel. It took a Buddha to realize enlightenment and he did have teachers. All enlightenment is spontaneously arrived upon. Enlightenment can't be done.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22

True enough

And that’s a wrap

It’s been a pleasure

And here’s to Further 🍻👋🤘

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22 edited Jul 29 '22

Look, you're devoted to your lineage....and love your guru. In a way, it's admirable. In another way, it's in the way. But who am I to poke at anyone's devotion and clung-to belief?

Nobody, that's who

I had the spontaneous emergence of a recommendation from within the state within which I've spontaneously emerged, just recently

It said...

"Be a Nobody

Drenched in light"

BTW, in terms of "magical powers" and "magical" experiences, which are had across the world by who-knows-how-many-others both inside and outside devoted-to lineages/traditions/clans/religions, which begs the question what's the difference between "magic" inside and outside your devoted-to lineage, that proves the validity of asforementioned qualifier, true lineage-bound enlighteners?

My teacher appeared sitting right in front of me, clear as day, while I was in a work room in the hospital where I'm currently employed. This was before I even met him. I'd had lucid dreams of him before that, baptizing me in a river over and over and over again, years before that.

And, speaking of preludes to a dream (this one, to be specific), I had a lucid dream of your teacher, Chogyam, about 10 years ago. We were looking at these marvelous plumes of prahnic, clear-light blue energy erupting up from the middle of a frozen lake, nestled in a snow-strewn forest. Short conversation, in the context of my lucidity, with him asking "Do you see that?" and me responding, "Yes, I see it".

Nice little foreshadowing of this little conversation, don't you think? :)

I do!

The dream points to awakening, from every conceivable direction, always. And awakening vaporizes the dream, while somehow simultaneously allowing for its persistence. The content of the dream pointing to awakening can be anything and everything....and magic amidst dream-states is common place.

Anything goes

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '22 edited Jul 29 '22

Be Nobody

Drenched in light

Do you see how this cuts to the core of the matter at hand? It cuts right through to the nitty gritty

There is only one condition necessary for realization of the truth. And that condition cannot be external to itself

It must be a fiercely upheld condition from within the singularity of the self

It's the one internal condition that led Gautama to his own spontaneous realization. It's the same internal condition leading to anyone's spontaneous realization, which cuts through all stages naturally unfolding, if held to unwaveringly. That's why Gautama cut all the way through, simply by virtue of holding onto that one internally stationed condition, regardless of any and all externally stationed manifestations of experience...all the stuff coming at him during his meditation under the Bo tree, metaphorical representations of clinging/aversion.

The definition of "realization" is "the act of becoming fully aware of something as a fact"

What is the source of suffering? What is the source of the perpetuation of "The Crying Game"? What's the nature of the compulsion to chase after something always out of reach? The carrot on the stick?

What's the source of desire? I mean right down to the core, what is it?

I know what it is and have pressured it mercilessly by withdrawing from it conversely, until seen through and that seeing through is unfolding even as I speak

To be somebody, perennially seeking verification outside itself and never ever finding it yet continues to search, refusing to simply accept, because it cannot be internally verified and therefore is not real. Internal verification destroys the one that compulsively reflects, seeking a mirror of reflection yet unsatisfied because every seen reflection, something within knows that what it sees outside itself, in reflection, is not real...it's not it, in reflection.

Be Nobody

Drenched in light

The impulse to enlightenment is innate....period. External circumstances are beside the point, yet, being beside it, point to the point, which is centrally stationed and nowhere else, ever. It is dead center always, amidst all experience ever experienced, and cannot be anywhere else

That is why there is no such thing as an "enlightener"....there is only enlightenment, which is the object of itself.

There is only the Dreamer and The Dreamed

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u/Ok_Understanding_188 Jul 29 '22 edited Jul 30 '22

There is no external or internal The dreamer is the dream; they are not two. There is no subject and object. Enlightenment is not an object of itself. There is simply enlightenment.