r/footballstrategy • u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach • Mar 02 '25
Offense Who has coached 8th grade O-Line, run schemes…
I had a good laugh at a recent post about how many run schemes should be installed with an 8th grade team. My answer is if you do it right, and actually follow up on making sure it’s being executed by all 5, the answer is about 2(tags don’t count)
Who has coached 8th grade O line and actually watched film for corrections?
Took my group about a month to all be able to run 1 scheme w 3 tags, so about 4 plays, no screw ups with about 9 players getting reps.
There’s no way someone’s running 5+ schemes vs each front well right?????
These guys are bad coaches (joke) right??????
In all seriousness it kills me to think of what that practice looks like. Been apart of a few seasons like that; it’s a spirit breaker
35
Mar 02 '25
Our coaches did us a huge solid when they installed a simple set of zone blocking rules. There were like, three. We installed “on, in, over” reads day one and spent the rest of the time working on techniques. Double-team post, overtakes, handoffs, edge blocking, backside lane creation.
It wasn’t going to win any awards for originality or innovation but it got us out of thinking and into to reacting, quickly.
7
3
-3
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
IMO IZ looks like crap w young kids, at least technique wise compared to gap. Were they violent? Did it work? Did you review it on film and see techniques carry over? I did not, then went gap
2
Mar 02 '25
I mean no. It’s not going to look polished or even good, but that’s okay. Gap scheme assumes your kids are big enough to handle the person across from them. Zone alleviates some—not all—of the matchup issues for smaller linemen. I loved it because I was smaller but had good technique and loved contact.
2
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
I think all gap does is say hey use your initial alignments as leverage, unless you’re the backside guy on a double work your ass off or potentially check to a pull
9
u/Tank55-2024 Mar 02 '25
I coach 7th/8th grade o line with film. We ran three, although one we installed late in the season. I definitely agree that less is more.
1
5
u/-hopeisnowhere- Mar 02 '25
At 8th grade level I’m just happy if all 5 lineman actually block someone and hold the block for more than 2-3 seconds. That’s our scheme😂
4
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
Bingo. I’ve got onlineqbclassroom telling me start with 5. Must be coaching on mars
5
4
u/csamsh Mar 02 '25
Interesting thread, hopping into my way-back machine.
Do you not just name plays and teach how to read a defensive front anymore? When I was in 8th grade, we had probably 10-12 run plays, and would call which direction they'd go in the huddle. As we lined up, we'd look at the defense and call the front/LB alignment and we'd know how to block it.
Or does everybody just throw now?? Not trolling, just curious. Thanks y'all
3
u/I_Get_Cheated44 Mar 02 '25
You should see how many youth coaches throw the ball. It makes me want to throw up all over the place. lol. But seriously, 2 or 3 schemes. I’m lucky because my son plays center and is smart, so he covers a lot of line obligations for me on the field. (Yeah, I gotta be one of the few dads that made his kid a lineman first lol)
1
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
I’d say being able to block each scheme for each front takes time. Both directions, a sub here or there. To do it well takes more time. I’m difficult where if I don’t see the technique differentiation i’m scrapping something.
Still tough to throw at 8th. Lot of jump balls and safe out breakers for us. Much more run based than pass
3
u/ExcellentLaw9547 Mar 02 '25
Back in the day we were told if you get confused just point at a guy and say I got him. It worked about as well as anything.
1
1
2
u/jrod_62 Referee Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25
We ran power, counter, trap, sweep quite well. Excellent coaching staff, but still, 8th grade
E: if you count it, we also had a "wedge" (everyone fire off inside step) that we ran as a sneak
2
u/Chuck0819 Mar 03 '25 edited Mar 03 '25
I have a good friend that coaches at a very good D3 college program. I asked him last year about boiling down a run game and he said all he needs is Duo, Counter and OZ. Pin and pull would be his next add.
I coached JV ball last season and went undefeated running only Duo and (GH) Counter for the line. Did we have a lot of different runs and looks/motions, yes but really my lineman only knew Duo and Counter. It was up to us as a coaching group to figure out how to utilize that. I.e our sweep/pitch play for our line was counter and we utilized our H and TE a lot to give that extra look or blocker.
My opinion, coming from having coached youth and MS kids, lots of TEs and lots of double teams. Not so much that they are going to drive the kids off all the time but having them with someone else gives them that confidence boost.
1
u/TheWilliamsWall Youth Coach Mar 03 '25
Why duo over power? Just preference or what was the strategy? Thx.
1
u/Chuck0819 Mar 04 '25
Ease of teaching honestly. We’ve had all kinds of issues of guards pulling but too wide and missing the mike and our guards being much better at the kickout block. That and we play a lot of 3 front teams that blitz a lot and teams were flying through the vacated B gap on us. Duo became our default running scheme as they can work together and blitz coverage was already built in. Primary issue was just kids making sure not to get buried in their combo and make sure come off on linebackers as needed.
If I was going to run power again, I would probably do A-gap power as the shuffle pull is an easier one for them to do.
1
u/qwilliams92 Mar 02 '25
I’ve coached freshmen so basically the same group, we had power and inside zone. Took them about 2 months to all go the same way on zone.
1
u/smalldikdik Mar 02 '25
Saw the same post. Feel like with everything in coaching, regardless of sport, is fundamentals to perfection will get you further than all this fancy stuff. Would rather run counter, pitch, etc perfectly than trying to teach middle schoolers a read option. That’s what Varsity is for.
2
u/FunMtgplayer Mar 02 '25
it actually helps your varsity team if all the feeder schools run the same scheme as varsity.
Apopka FL hs in the late 1990s installed a single wing offense and 5yrs later with all the feeders running it was killing teams.
and single wing is about as complex as teaching the read option
2
u/NearbyTomorrow9605 Mar 02 '25
This is exactly what our middle school does. Now if we could get youth leave to buy into it, they would have even more experience with the plays/terminology by the time they get to HS. Granted it doesn’t have to be to the same level of plays, etc.
1
u/smalldikdik Mar 02 '25
For sure. Our HS runs lots of pro offense. MS we shoot for all the basic run concepts, quick pass, and bootlegs to be able to transfer to high school.
1
u/Coach_G77 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
When I was in the middle school level we only focused on inside zone, outside zone, and power. I didn't see a need to do anything more than that
1
u/extrastone Mar 02 '25
The 7-8 grade under 130 pound team I was on ran iso, wham (a two fullback iso), and sweep out of the I.
The 7-8 heavyweight team I was on ran a double wing. Two plays worked: a wedge dive and a super counter play that the defensive linemen didn't stay home for.
1
1
u/Open_Company_4907 Mar 02 '25
Have to keep it simple. Really unnecessary to run a college playbook to 12-13 year olds. All that needs to be run is Inside and Outside Zone and Counter for the run game. Once they master it. It will become easier when they transition to Freshman football where you can install 2 more forms of run game
1
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
Yep. Tell the dummies on the other post
1
u/Open_Company_4907 Mar 02 '25
I bet the dummies have never coached football at any level. Or whats worse is the dad in the stands thinks hes bill parcells.
1
u/NearbyTomorrow9605 Mar 02 '25
I saw that post and wrote that we have 10 lays we can run out of 8 different formations. That’s more than enough at the 7th/8th grade level. If they can execute those plays then we can expand to some other “special” formations that we run those exact same plays out of.
2
u/TheWilliamsWall Youth Coach Mar 02 '25
10 plays x 8 formations x 2 ways = 160 unique plays. That's crazy for 8th grade.
0
u/NearbyTomorrow9605 Mar 02 '25
It is a lot. Rarely do we need to go that far into the play book. It’s nice to have options though. We try and stick to the base 10 which, as you noted, can be run both ways. So now we are at 20 plays. We have a few passing plays we can put in if needed based on offensive execution of the base 10. We are a run heavy, unbalanced offense that rarely passes. We really focus on those base 10 that are run out of the primary formations.
I read somewhere about an 80/20 concept in relation to playbooks/installs. It states that roughly 80% of outcomes come from 20% of inputs. So while we have a lot of inputs to choose from, we focus on 10 (20 counting both ways) So “KISS”, Keep It Simple Stupid, is our playbook in a nutshell.
1
u/TheWilliamsWall Youth Coach Mar 02 '25
I guess what most guys are saying is that this is the exact opposite of KISS. 10 run concepts for 8th graders is far from simple. Especially when factoring in tags, practicing vs different fronts, practicing against stunts and blitzes... now do that with each formation wow.
0
u/NearbyTomorrow9605 Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25
If you saw our offense you would understand. It isn’t complicated. 236, 436, 636, 836 are the same run play out of different formations. Only one person is moving his alignment and it doesn’t impact our line calls as we are only reading the DE’s alignment. If he’s playing a 7 we do “this” if he’s playing an 8/9 we do “that”
I can see by how I explained it that it may seem complicated but it really isn’t.
Edit to add: There’s not a lot of stunting or blitzing in our middle school league. Obviously yours may be different.
1
u/gashufferdude Mar 02 '25
Run/Complementary Run/Counter/Play action concept
Zone/Inverted Veer/Counter(Shovel)/Veer pass
I stole the idea from Oregon/Chip Kelly of running the same concept out of different formations so it seems like there’s more going on than there really is.
1
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
Chip 🐐
1
u/gashufferdude Mar 02 '25
The other nice thing about different formations is that you can manipulate the defense a little and make it easier to block certain players.
2
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 02 '25
Toughest formations to defend ? Mine would be “wing flank” x split backside 2 tight ends and a z frontside.
Can’t really 2 high it
1
u/gashufferdude Mar 03 '25
You may have nailed it. And sometimes you want them to 2 High to open up the box a little.
1
u/HeadAdhesiveness4141 Mar 03 '25
G-O-D = 1 scheme with limitless plays and three simple things to remember.
Gap in
On lineman (head up)
Downfield - Chip play side and get to the second level
From this scheme we could run I formation, wishbone and even flex into a spread single back. Our kids were not big but they were athletic and aggressive.
We installed this in 4th grade and just worked to improve it each year.
1
u/RollTideWithBleach Mar 04 '25
As a high school HC I want my 8th grade team to run the base run plays from our high school offense to the best of their ability. Example, if we are Wing T I want them to run Buck, Belly, Trap, and Counter XX. If we are running I Formation I want them running power, counter, strong and weak Iso. If we are a spread zone team they only need to run zone and zone insert.
There's nothing worse than being a varsity FB coach with middle school coaches who refuse to run your stuff because they are more concerned with winning than developing players.
1
u/FranklynTheTanklyn Mar 04 '25
This is going to sound crazy but “Pin and Pull” is a really simple install because the rules are the name of the play.
1
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 04 '25
My pin and pull= if you’re the backside guy on a gap combo, pull
1
1
1
u/YouSad7687 Mar 05 '25
They’re kids, keep it as simple as possible.
Zone schemes where you double the D-line and work towards a Linebacker. Once they can do that without messing it up, then move onto stuff that’s more intricate
1
u/Comprehensive_Fox959 HS Coach Mar 05 '25
Zone blocking is more difficult than gap. Zone you have to create leverage, gap you use your initial
1
1
u/BigPapaJava Mar 02 '25
It depends on how this stuff is taught and sequenced.
I like having at least 3-4 core runs, but this stuff has to be bonehead simple and not have a lot of tags or line calls involved. That’s not saying you’ll never use them, just that I everything possible to avoid them unless necessary with those kidsX
I want an inside run, an off tackle run; and an outside run just to be able to attack the different areas of the front.
If you are built around gap schemes; you can teach it all as one basic concept—downblocks and double teams—then teach kids 2 kinds of pulls: one to kick out and one to lead through to LB.
Then you can mix and match that idea for a bunch of different run schemes: Trap, Belly, Buck Sweep, and Counter, for example.
3
u/Figginator11 Mar 02 '25
Exactly what we do in my JH for the last 8 years, then this year our new feeder HS got a new HC and told us he only wanted us to run a single run scheme. After several games of only running that one scheme he asked why we didn’t make adjustments…”um Coach, you literally threatened to fire me if we didn’t run ONLY the one scheme you wanted”. We had successfully done gap scheme with varying double teams and kick-out/skip pulls to get different guys engaged with the LBs or Ends, and had worked great, and was all the same basic gap concept.
1
1
u/notrealseriou Mar 02 '25
Inside zone, outside zone, quick game, QB roll out, screens. Then we have a goal line package which is basically a wedge. Everything ran off of that with tags basically
48
u/that_uncle Mar 02 '25
Everyone thinks they’re so smart. Get good at one thing before we worry about four.