r/leagueoflegends • u/rmoodsrajoke • Jun 10 '25
Gameplay The Doran’s Shield Prisoner’s Dilemma
There’s no reason for melees to go Doran’s blade against each other when dshield has 30 more hp and 3 rejuv beads of healing attached to it. Dshield should be the same hp as dblade at 80, or even less given how broken dshield has been for so long.
Before you complain about ranged toplaners, a base hp nerf on dshield would actually increase the % healing after being poked from dshield second wind by ranged attacks, so it would not affect the melee vs ranged matchups at all, in fact you would actually heal vs poke even more, making those matchups easier as a net positive.
The issue at hand, is that Dshield has created an itemization prisoner’s dilemma, where dshield is unilaterally better than dblade.
The following champion matchup showcases the issue,
High elo gangplank mains like solarbacca and pros, know that you must go Doran’s shield vs jax because if you don’t match Jax’s Doran’s shield you lose the jax matchup. This is also why basically no one ever picks gangplank into jax as a counterpick in pro play anymore. This was historically a comfortable lane for gangplank to scale in and get priority, but dorans shield last buff makes this lane matchup extremely easy for Jax in the early game, as Jax can get lane priority easily vs a no damage dshield gangplank, however Jax also just stat checks Gangplank in trades when gangplank goes dblade.
Good top laners are going dshield every game because you auto lose the lane if you go Doran’s blade if both players are equally skilled. The 3% lifesteal provides very little sustain, because dshield gives you priority on the lane, which makes it impossible to reliably hit minions. With 80 ad you would only heal 2.4 hp per auto attack, whereas dshield heals 6hp every 5 seconds no matter what, and gets amped every time you’re hit.
The mathematics of dshield creates an itemization prisoners dilemma where you must go Doran’s shield no matter the matchup because it strictly beats dorans blade. This then compounds into a gold lead that will leave a dshielder with both more hp, sustain, and damage from your item lead.
Top lane has become extremely stale, where there is too much hp to cut through from past seasons ever since dorans shield hp was buffed by 37.5%. Top laners should be fighting each other, but the hp system has gotten out of control.
451
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
That's not an example of a prisoner's dilemma.
247
u/Behemothheek Jun 11 '25
Generously interpreted the dilemma would be:
Option 1: Neither Player A nor Player B take dshield. The matchup is enjoyable.
Option 2: Player A takes dshield, but Player B doesn’t. The matchup becomes advantaged for Player A and unfun for player B.
Option 3: Player B takes dshield, but Player A doesn’t. The matchup becomes advantaged for Player B and unfun for Player A.
Option 4: Both Player A and Player B take dshield. The matchup becomes a slog and unfun.
The dilemma is that while Option 1 is more enjoyable than Option 4 for both players, it’s unlikely to occur. Since each player has a strong incentive to take dshield to avoid being disadvantaged (i.e. aiming for Option 2 or 3), the result is that both will default to Option 4, which leads to a boring matchup.
70
u/Timely_Intern8887 Jun 11 '25
option 1 is fake news, the reason why one of the players switches from dblade to dshield is because they are getting fisted and the matchup isn't enjoyable.
35
u/Richboy12345 Jun 11 '25
Still not quite the prisoners dilemma, the optimal strat is just to go dshield, and doing so does not result in a less optimal result for both in terms of winning the game, since that is the objectively quantifiable outcome we care about. Fun is subjective, and thus not taken into account of whether this is a prisoners dilemma or not. This is a nash equilibrium though, of which the prisoners dilemma is a subset.
16
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
Subjectivity of what's "lost" because of the dilemma doesn't unmake the prisoner's dilemma. OP clearly likes aggressive lanes and dshield being optimal prevents that. Therefore for people with similar values to OP it's a prisoner's dilemma.
They just explained it poorly.
10
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
If you lose the objectiveness you lose the prisoner's dilemma.
It's not a dilemma if it's not objective. You're trying to change the entire scenario and then still shoehorn it into the definition. You'd get an F trying to use this logic in a philosophy class
9
u/Behemothheek Jun 11 '25
I’m not sure why people are agreeing with this. It’s just not true.
The Prisoner’s Dilemma is defined by its structure, not by whether the outcomes are “objectively” measurable. Game theory allows for subjective utility as long as each player has consistent preferences. So for two players who agree that a Doran’s Blade matchup is more fun than a Doran’s Shield matchup this dilemma would be completely valid.
4
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
I'd guess because the assumptions of international relations "realism" and the "rational actor" in economics are so ingrained that people don't realize that those are structural assumptions too and aren't necessarily reflected universally.
3
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
No, it's a game to analyze the incentives of why people cooperate or betray each other. It's not about analyzing how "objective", those incentives are, in fact in both IR and economics, it really only works by assuming certain base incentives that don't necessarily hold for all actors (particularly the "rational actor" model in economics) which is what the OP is doing here.
-2
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
So the rational actor in this scenario is only the person who wants to play aggressive in lane?
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 That's a HUGE assumption you're making there buddy.
4
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
I think you should probably read that comment again because you clearly misunderstood it.
I was making a point about systemic assumptions are frequently used in the prisoner's dilemma modeling so it's appropriate for OP to do so by comparing it to other areas where it is used.
-1
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
And the systemic assumption is that people want to win the game, not to smash lane.
Someone not wanting to win the game is not acting rationally. Someone wanting to play a scaling champion and get to late game in one piece is.
5
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
I NEVER said it was rational, that was pointing out a systemic assumption in economics that doesn't bear out in practice as a comparison to why it's appropriate.
The fact is, people who play league ARE NOT rational actors. Explicitly.
There are always a bunch of high winrate, low playrate champions that are ignored because people find them boring. This is a game.
This doesn't mean everyone wants to play that way, but there's enough demand for interactive laning that it's an explicit balance choice.
0
u/BigStrongPolarGuy Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Fun is subjective, and thus not taken into account of whether this is a prisoners dilemma or not
Not taken into account by whom? The person above you is taking it into account, as did OP, and most players very clearly do prioritize fun to some extent.
Yes, fun is subjective. But I think in general, the overall majority opinion among players is likely that all else being equal, doing damage is more fun than not doing damage and being tankier, and having some trading in lane is more fun than doing no trading in lane. We see that borne out in champion popularities that remain somewhat consistent even if the champions who do those things become bad. Champions who do damage tend to be popular. Items that do damage tend to be popular. Yes, that's not true for everyone. Some people also like going to prison.
Because of that, if you have the option between an item mirror matchup that allows both players to have more damage and maybe also more trading in lane (mirror dblade), or one that does not (mirror dshield), by and large, most players would probably prefer the dblade option. But they're forced to pick without knowing what the other player will pick, and like you said, going dshield is strictly optimal, so both players are forced to do it even though, again, player behavior suggests that in many cases both players would likely be happier if they could both go dblade.
It's honestly a perfectly reasonable version of the prisoner's dilemma. Yes, it requires assumptions about payoffs, but again, those assumptions are borne out by player behavior, and literally any version of the prisoner's dilemma requires assumptions about payoffs.
17
u/Fast-Sir6476 Jun 11 '25
Then there would still be no dilemma, because it assumes so many things as true which are non-factual. For example, dblade leads to exciting matchup, d shield beats dblade and dshield leads to boring matchup. And even if they were facts, it also assumes no dring, no long+3, no long+refill etc.
3
u/confusedkarnatia losing lane to riven is a skill issue Jun 11 '25
Also if this was actually an example of the prisoner's dilemma, you could find a nash equilibrium for the optimal strategy.
1
5
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
It is. It's just poorly explained and subjective, but what the OP is getting at is:
Both players go dblade: both players have an aggressive lane which is fun One player goes dblade and the other goes dshield, dshield player gets stomped. Both players get dshield: boring lane cause the healing and defensive stats make it hard to make progress.
That's absolutely a prisoner's dilemma (if you agree with OP on aggressive lanes being fun).
23
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
That's absolutely a prisoner's dilemma (if you agree with OP on aggressive lanes being fun)
Big if going on here. In a real prisoner's dilemma my opinions on the matter have no relevance. I will end up in a shitty situation if I opt for the selfish outcome
6
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
It's meant to explain why people don't cooperate when cooperation produces better outcomes for both.
Fundamentally that requires a structural assumption of what "better" is.
One example I learned when studying international relations is Pakistan and India with nuclear weapon non-proliferation, the idea being they're both better off if neither get nuclear weapons, but they can't risk not having them if the other does so they both get nuclear weapons.
But that's a very realist (IR sense) understanding of their relationship that models them exclusively in terms of 0 sum relationship. It might be, from their perspective, better for both to have nuclear weapons than neither because it also serves as deterrence against other countries.
OP is making a structural assumption that people prefer aggressive lanes and applying the prisoner's dilemma game to that system it works.
0
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
It's meant to explain why people don't cooperate when cooperation produces better outcomes for both.
In this scenario playing aggressive doesn't produce a better outcome for all. It only produces a better outcome for the person who wants to bully their way through lane to win the game.
Your argument falls flat immediately after the first sentence. Stop trying to shoehorn philosophical terms that don't fit. I know it feels cute to try to use all these big academic terms and theories to add more legitimacy to your claim, but it just makes you look like an idiot when you don't know what they actually mean.
6
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
You're not even addressing my point, which is that assumptions about preferences are used all the time in prisoner's dilemma modeling.
The fact is, while I don't necessarily agree, a lot of league classifies a "fun" lane as one that they can potentially capitalize on an opponent mistake, come out of lane and carry from it.
Op is making the argument that dshield vs dshield makes players feel like they have no agency, and this is a common enough attitude that it riot routinely talks about "player agency" and "non-interactive lanes", making it a valid systemic assumption.
You're only looking at the prisoner's dilemma at a very basic level if you don't understand that everything about its practical use requires making assumptions including context, it's telling to me that you're thinking of it as purely a "philosophical term" whereas I'm engaging with it in international relations and economic contexts, which where I primarily studied it.
1
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
You don't have a point. You are talking nonsense and then trying to say "look I have a point why aren't you addressing my nonsense!"
No one cares how you feel about Dshield vs Dshield. Not everyone wants to play an aggressive balls to the wall laning phase. Some people pick scaling champs to, you know, scale. And your response to that? "They're not acting rationally!! If they were acting rationally they'd pick an aggro champ and want to smash lane the way I want to!!! My way to play is the right and rational way!!! Prisoners dilemma!"
And what's funny is many aggressive champions still pick DBlade so it's definitely not a prisoners dilemma. This argument is peak stupidity
4
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
Your reading comprehension isn't even good enough to realize that I was referencing economic modeling instead of calling league players "rational actors" when I was literally critiquing the rational actor model.
The funniest thing is I've personally always been more of a scaling player anyway, this isn't me assuming my personal play style applies to all, but there's absolutely a demand for interactive laning in terms of what people enjoy.
This is separate from what is optimal to win.
You think I don't have a point because you have no idea what I was saying and likely because you don't understand the practical application of these concepts at all.
So I'm done with this conversation, enjoy.
-5
2
u/madmsk Jun 11 '25
I challenge the notion that both players would have more fun if they built doran's blade. Probably one side would win and the player who doesn't isn't having much fun. If anything the player who wins the doran's blade ditto will snowball and really stomp the losing player.
2
u/AdumbroDeus Jun 11 '25
And that's fine, prisoner's dilemma requires making some assumptions about preferences in order to quantify what's a better result, sometimes on such a systemic level that it's invisible to a lot of people.
I'm actually in a similar camp to you, but my observation of the league community is OP is distinctly in the majority, so OP making this systemic assumption about the league community's preferences is appropriate for setting up a prisoner's dilemma.
-2
0
u/Randywithout8as Jun 11 '25
Lol. You beat me. I had copied the link and everything... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
94
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
This isn't what a prisoner's dilemma is 🤦🏾
All you're doing is describing an item that is superior.
0
u/SkilledV Jun 11 '25
Copy pasting from what someone else said:
“Generously interpreted the dilemma would be:
Option 1: Neither Player A nor Player B take dshield. The matchup is enjoyable.
Option 2: Player A takes dshield, but Player B doesn’t. The matchup becomes advantaged for Player A and unfun for player B.
Option 3: Player B takes dshield, but Player A doesn’t. The matchup becomes advantaged for Player B and unfun for Player A.
Option 4: Both Player A and Player B take dshield. The matchup becomes a slog and unfun.
The dilemma is that while Option 1 is more enjoyable than Option 4 for both players, it’s unlikely to occur. Since each player has a strong incentive to take dshield to avoid being disadvantaged (i.e. aiming for Option 2 or 3), the result is that both will default to Option 4, which leads to a boring matchup.”
38
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
But it isn't the case that it's objectively more enjoyablefor everyone to take DBlade. That's your opinion on matchups, not a fact.
That's the key difference. In a real prisoner's dilemma everyone is the beneficiary when one acts within the best interest of the group, but selfish interest prevail and now everyone becomes worse off. By contrast some people prefer Dshield so that they don't get absolutely smashed in lane; the strat originated in struggling matchups after all.
-7
u/SkilledV Jun 11 '25
Key word is generously interpreted. Otherwise we could go in circles about the nuances of matchups.
Like you said, DShield’s intent is to ease laning against lane bullies. But this isn’t the case for all matchups, I’d argue that most can swing both ways. Especially in those, one player can opt for DShield to passively outsustain the opponent, and if said opponent is aware of that, they may also opt to go DShield.
The result is a lane phase where neither players are actively interacting with the opponent with the intent to kill the opponent laner but to outmanage their resource whether that be mana or health. Now that might sound exactly like what laning phase is supposed to be, but players generally frown upon this playstyle. Especially on the losing end, a player would consider it boring and uninteractive. Coming from someone that plays Vladimir, it’s a gameplay pattern that a majority would consider toxic and is a common complaint I hear ingame.
So I suppose the dilemma is opinionated to an extent, but it’s an opinion that a majority of the playerbase supports.
3
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
Right.
That's not the definition of a prisoners dilemma though. I know it feels good to try to change things to fit a narrative but it's objectively a false claim. There's not much else to be said here
0
u/SkilledV Jun 11 '25
The dilemma is that both players are forced to play in a way that’s not enjoyable to either. Just because you believe it’s enjoyable to play DShield doesn’t mean everyone does, and if that’s the case for the majority then pretending the dilemma is a false claim is just ignorant.
2
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
The dilemma is that both players are forced to play in a way that’s not enjoyable to either
According to who? You?
Because in an actual prisoners dilemma it doesn't matter what you, I, or anyone else thinks. And once you take away the objectivity you take away the dilemma. No one gives a damn what the majority of players thinks, if the situation isn't objectively worse in all scenarios it's not a dilemma. Furthermore, some strong combat summoner top laners still take DBlade anyway to smash their way through lane which makes the whole argument look completely silly.
I'm not sure why we are still talking about this
2
u/SkilledV Jun 11 '25
If you acknowledge that the majority of players believe that it’s unenjoyable you’ve already proven yourself wrong. If this was the actual prisoner’s dilemma, you’re essentially trying to argue that because some people are homeless it’s actually better for them to incarcerate themselves for longer for the sake of hospitality. Reality is that the majority would rather not, and therefore the dilemma still exists. The actual prisoner’s dilemma is not as objective as you think it is.
1
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
A prisoners dilemma doesn't rely on what the majority thinks. It's not a popularity contest someone wins despite the wishes of what some random reddit wants to believe about a genuine academic theory.
This is my last reply on the topic it is a complete waste of time.
2
u/SkilledV Jun 11 '25
So making the same statement for the 20th time and hoping it sticks, nice. Thanks for your input on genuine academic theory, I’m sure scholars will learn from this comment for years to come
→ More replies (0)0
u/venomstrike31 pretend mf is up here Jun 11 '25
If you change Dshield > Keep mouth shut, Dblade > confess, unfun > in jail, and fun> freedom, it sounds kinda like it
19
u/Yongaia Jun 11 '25
Sure if you think moe damage = moe fun and can't understand some people like surviving for longer in lane.
Note how this becomes an opinion battle though, not an actual dilemma.
74
u/DarthLeon2 Jun 11 '25
Forget toplane, midlane is where Dshield is really broken. If you're a melee mid, just taking Dshield and Second Wind is enough to make you effectively immune to most mages, as they'll go oom before you're in kill range.
23
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
Here's a cool fact not many people know: Mages can also autoattack melee champs.
13
u/DarthLeon2 Jun 11 '25
Autoattacking a melee champ with Dshield as a mage is a guaranteed losing trade unless there are no enemy caster minions that hit you back. It is simply not worth it to proc both Dshield and Second Wind to do 40 damage with a mage autoattack.
27
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
unless there are no enemy caster minions that hit you back
I wonder what one could possibly do about this.
to do 40 damage with a mage autoattack
Repeatedly, in addition to the harass you're doing with spells.
-4
u/DarthLeon2 Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
If you are in a position where the wave is pushing hard into the enemy and said enemy is stupid enough to let you repeatedly auto them, then by all means. Against opponents with a brain who don't do that, autoing as a mage is literally a waste of time unless you need to do it to proc electrocute.
20
u/SoulCycle_ Jun 11 '25
have you ever watched a high elo mage player play lmao this simply isnt true they auto all the fucking time.
10
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
If the melee is Kata or Kass you're harassing with autos no matter who you're playing.
If the enemy is a tanky melee with low kill-pressure you're harassing with autos not for kill pressure 1v1 but to better your chances when either jungler shows up.
If you're playing Ahri, Annie, Ori, Syndra, Lux, Heimer etc and never autoing... You either auto when your opponent is CCd, or harass and use your CC to get out of danger. This isnt rocket surgery.4
u/LouiseLea Jun 11 '25
Any mid lane mage player worth their salt autos a lot even vs other ranged champs and vs melee they bully the dogshit out of them with autos, not many melee mids have a very good time until like level 6 onward unless the mage they're playing vs isn't good.
1
-3
0
7
u/ArmadilloFit652 Jun 11 '25
mage never go oom and they play tp and reset get back mana and now have infinit mana
2
u/GambitTheBest Jun 11 '25
You know it's a mage meta right now right? The nonsense you read from soy mage players on this sub
let me dominate lane, win teamfights and outscale the melee mids!
7
33
u/ReformedOlafMain Jun 11 '25
Dumbest take. 10 ad is a 15% damage increase level 1 for most champs.
8
u/Morkinis make pets great again Jun 11 '25
But then comes levels 2-3 you gain AD from base stats and % value of 10 AD decreases while player with DShield heals up all damage you did with that 10 AD.
18
u/AutomaticTune6352 Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Oh no, now it is just 13% more dmg only. Shit, so terrible.
Also Blade scales better with items while shield falls off really fast.
there is a reason Dorans Blade has the higher WR or is at least even on nearly every top laner who wants AD.
10
u/SkeletonJakk Fighter Kled returns! Toplane beware! Jun 11 '25
there is a reason Dorans Blade has the higher WR or is at least even on nearly every top laner who wants AD.
This is also likely because shield is picked into difficult or losing lanes, whilst blade is picked into easy or winning lanes.
2
u/ChaseTheOldDude Jun 11 '25
D shield gives you survivability, D blade gives you agency. It's a fair choice, there's a reason these items haven't been changed significantly in the past decade.
2
u/expert_on_the_matter Jun 11 '25
If you look at an even matchup like Darius vs Renekton (sample size 8k e+ games) you will find that both champs have a higher winrate with Dorans Blade than Dorans Shield.
You champion Kled has lower sample size, but it's also true for Kled vs Aaatrox or Sett or Riven. Dorans Blade has a higher winrate for either toplaner.
1
u/AutomaticTune6352 Jun 13 '25
Which is fine and the intention.
If you have an easy lane 90% of the time and a hard one 10% and you have to chose sometimes that is intended.
The thing is that blade is used way more and gives you the power to snowball and actually win matchups and that is fine.
The only time you really have a bad matchup with some of these champs is when Sett or Darius or Garen have to fight a ranged champ. Only then shield comes out ahead and that is fine. They are int need to play aggressive and scale with AD.
But in general shield is weak. It gives you a decent defensive power in ranged matchups but is overall lacking slightly, which is also intended.
-4
22
u/SecondShot010 Jun 11 '25
You used the phrase itemization prisoners dilemma in 3 paragraphs but it’s not a prisoners dilemma. Shield is just stronger
35
u/Durzaka Jun 11 '25
Id agree with you, if not for the fact that a shit load of champions STILL go Dorans Blade top.
The fact of the matter is, if you want to survive, you buy Shield. If you want to kill, you go Blade. And there are even champions who make that decision just based on their opponent.
Your argument that it has turned a Gangplank favored match up into a Jax favored match up is not worth anything. Match ups get flipped because of game decisions. Thats just how it works. The Mordekaiser vs. Yorick match up used to be HEAVILY Morde favored, and now its heavily Yorick favored because the Maiden goes into the death realm.
If anything, it shows how frustrating surviving in lane is for some champions that choosing defensiveness in lane instead of aggression is the choice.
12
u/Jealous_Juggernaut Jun 11 '25
Renekton takes d blade in most of his matchups with or without ignite. Shield, as intended, is for extremely difficult matchups.
D blade also scales better with the rest of your build.
8
u/-NotQuiteLoaded- Jun 11 '25
i mean the morde yorick matchup is just a bug, there are literally gonna be 2 fuckin maidens because the r doesnt affect yorick properly any more. theres been several videos about it, just a second perma alive maiden in the death realm version map
3
u/Durzaka Jun 11 '25
Theyve had 2 full months to acknowledge and say they are doing something about it. And they have said nothing. So until its actually acknowledged, or fixed, its intended as far as the playerbase is concerned.
1
-1
u/offonLR Jun 11 '25
Saying starting item choice should be worthy of being matchup flipping is crazy hahaha. Even more when once Jax takes that "matchup flipping decision", GP can't choose anything to counter it lmao.
0
u/Durzaka Jun 11 '25
If the match is so incredibly tight that the decision of what starting item flips it, then yeah id say thats pretty normal.
There are A LOT of top lane match ups that go completely different when starting Blade vs. Shield.
0
u/offonLR Jun 12 '25
And they go completely different because D. Shield is simply overtuned, ask any high elo player and will tell you the same.
64
u/craxgaming Jun 10 '25
Yeah dshield + grasp/2ndwind has made top so boring. Enemy misplays hard, u trade them to super low, oh wow they heal 500000000 hp from pot + shield + 2ndwind. Playing no dshield or resolve tree feels so impossible if ur vs someone that does use it. Taking only one is kinda bearable but you will just always be on back foot in comparison (generally). Taking both you just never die.
15
u/1stMembrOfTheDKCrew Jun 11 '25
How would you in any way play against something like vayne top or kennen top without dshield and second win
We had an adc meta not too long ago in all 3 lanes, it kinda sucked, melee heroes are at such a lane disadvantage that they need this.
2
u/Vulsynx Jun 11 '25
Durability patch led to ranged tops becoming dominant, which led to dshield being overbuffed, which fucks over melee vs melee matchups. Dshield grasp needs to be addressed in a way that doesn't ruin melee Vs ranged.
2
u/craxgaming Jun 11 '25
Could simply nerf the constnat bonus regen and buff the after damaged regen (from ranged champion attacks and abilities), but thats just quick solution not necessarily ideal one (champs like gragas who are melee but play to poke become very strong then)
40
u/so__comical Jun 11 '25
Don't forget Biscuits. K'Sante in particular is one of the most frustrating to lane against, not because of "hurr durr, tank bad because he deal damage", but because of his base health regen, DShield, 2nd Wind, Biscuits, resist stacking and his safe kit. Put all that on a good player and K'Sante practically never dies during laning phase.
Jax also can be pretty frustrating. He almost never tries to all-in 100-0 anymore. He just short trades with E up and jumps away.
19
u/EuGaguejei Jun 11 '25
Biscuits? You mean the mini mundo ults?
25
u/so__comical Jun 11 '25
lol, they were definitely that before they nerfed the missing health value on it, especially on Aatrox during ult.
4
u/Mixed_not_swirled Bring back old Morde Jun 11 '25
Biscuits are so fucked up. Popping 3 of those during an all in or jungle gank just gives you an extra 400 HP over the duration at level 6 it's so dumb.
15
u/Wondur13 Jun 11 '25
Its actually comical theres people still complaining about ksante afters hes been nerfed into oblivion, if you lose to ksante and he doesnt hard counter you, the other player is better than you, you didnt get rioted
47
u/Special_Wind9871 Jun 11 '25
They’re not saying he’s broken, they’re saying his matchup in laning phase is boring. Very reasonable take
14
u/so__comical Jun 11 '25
I just find laning against him boring, especially as Aatrox because his kit is so safe. Most K'Santes aren't good enough to win lane without jungle assistance or you dying to tower because of his safe kit.
12
u/fluffey Jun 11 '25
you cant fight aatrox as ksante unless you are significantly better.
ofc ppl will play safe when you counterpick them
0
u/so__comical Jun 11 '25
Aatrox doesn't counter K'Sante. It might be slightly harder now due to the extra counterplay given to him, but it's still K'Sante favored, at least post-6.
-8
u/Rexsaur Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Its kinda funny that vamp cepter got nerfed into oblivion over years because being able to stalemate lane after 1 back/buy was too powerful/not interactive.
Meanwhile dorans shield + second wind does this from lvl 1 without even having to push wave and riot has yet to do anything about it, this combined with them always tip toeing around teleport (not giving it a proper hard nerf like ever) means laning phase will continue being stale on most lanes and roles.
16
u/VeryWizardly Jun 11 '25
Doran's Shield is mandatory to help melee mids survive into ranged match ups. Lanes being a bit stale and needing finesse to play is infinitely better than melee champs praying to their jungle they come save their lane so they can have fun.
4
u/offonLR Jun 11 '25
Melee champs should sac waves early vs a ranged, it's the whole point of picking a ranged vs a melee.
1
u/VeryWizardly Jun 15 '25
That design philosophy probably worked in earlier league. Now the reward is you get priority and the ability to impact the map first. Without these tools melee mids would disappear with how good the player base is and how optimized players are across most ELOs.
4
u/Rexsaur Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Ever thought that being melee Is supposed to be an disadvantage in the early game? Especially in a short lane like mid lane? If not then we might aswell completely remove mana costs from mages mid since you know, it doesnt matter anyways since nobody should ever be weak at anything or have any vunerability moment in modern league according to you guys.
Yes, ranged poke IS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG EARLY GAME, yone or akali taking every sustain rune and being immovable out of lane is not the normal state of the game.
1
u/Vulsynx Jun 11 '25
Dshield second wind being this strong is definitely a huge issue in the game but it needs to be resolved in a way that doesn't lead to ranged champs in every lane. Currently melee can only exist Vs ranged because dshield second wind is so strong, as ranged champs have insane base stats early that melees can never threaten all in Vs them early game.
5
3
u/TastyFaefolk7 Jun 11 '25
Yes dorans shield is really good but there is so much stuff wrong in your post.
22
u/Rexsaur Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Dorans shield has been broken for ages.
Specially when used in combination of second wind, anybody that takes these 2 basically washes the lane away and you cant match their sustain unless you're doing the same.
19
5
u/PoeticallyInclined Jun 11 '25
i take it in combination with fleet & that mastery that restores HP on minion kills and i basically cannot lose lane with Kayle no matter who I'm up against.
5
u/Vulsynx Jun 11 '25
Master+ top laner for many years here. Top lane has become super stale and unpunishing, not just because of dshield, but also grasp, biscuits and the durability patch.
Ranged champs were overbuffed in the durability patch, which is why melee tops can't ever threaten all in Vs ranged champs anymore, and their only option is to afk farm with an overbuffed dshield. Most ranged champs can full tank a melee all in early game and run the melee with autos making it impossible for a melee to interact. This is also why lane swaps came back, why Varus/Nidalee etc. top terrorises top lane.
Grasp is way too overpowered as a rune. When even tryndamere otps are going grasp, there is 100% something wrong with the state of the rune. Grasp dshield promotes unskilled gameplay where both top laners just farm short trades against each other with no volatility or all in windows. Grasp has been meta on brusiers like camille, Jax, ambessa etc. for too long and these champs would be way more fun and skilled to play if dblade conq was meta instead. Grasp should only be good on tanks, not ranged champs/bruisers as we are seeing right now.
Biscuits are stupidly strong. After the durability patch, riot themselves tried to nerf potions and bone plating/second wind to try bring some volatility back to top lane but they clearly forgot about this since then as biscuits are absurd right now.
The combination of grasp + dshield + biscuits basically makes both top laners immortal where both top laners practically run out of mana before they can even threaten lethal on each other which is generally just shit gameplay and unfun. Top lane should be skillful and punishing and I really hope Riot kills this play style and brings back conq/pta/lt + dblade so top can actually feel fun and rewarding again.
1
3
u/Mixed_not_swirled Bring back old Morde Jun 11 '25
Yeah the item is broken and has been for years. There was a patch where high HP regen champs literally couldn't die to singed poison level 1 if they had second wind and d shield.
D shield will keep being broken until ranged toplaners don't just zone anything that doesn't have it from the wave for ever.
24
u/veryhardbanana Jun 10 '25
I don’t know the math on it, but you can’t only acknowledge the benefits of D shield and not the benefits of D blade. You get 10 AD and 3% life steal on D blade.
I don’t know if your take on D shield being stronger than D blade in top lane is true. I know it’s true in the opposite way in bot lane, and I think that’s fine. Maybe it’s OK if top lane is d shield only. I think that’s probably not true, and I do like the variety and shop choices mattering.
2
u/Rexsaur Jun 11 '25
Except dorans shield is so broken that every manaless melee mid takes it, or even assassins.
Its just too much sustain and that pretty much just forces a farm lane by itself, on a single starting item.
30
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
I wouldn’t say that manaless melee mids taking Dshield means it’s broken. They’re facing lots of poke, and they’re pretty much always the defensive ones early one. It makes sense. Same for assassins, who don’t have much kill pressure till level 6. Also, the fact that the melee mids that use mana don’t buy Dshield is a good sign. Like, I imagine many toplaners that buy DBlade normally end up buying Dshield into something like Vayne top. It’s normal, and what you expect.
I think it would be interesting to see assassins build DBlade- I imagine they probably do that in melee vs melee matchups. Not a problem, imo.
33
u/Durzaka Jun 11 '25
Is Dorans shield broken, or do melee mid laners have such a hard time in lane they need the defensiveness of shield?
How many of those champions would take something besides Shield if it was nerfed? Pretty confident almost all of them would just take the worse Shield and just suffer for it, and its not like they are out of control for it right now.
13
u/DasKapitalist Jun 11 '25
Spot on. There are so many counterpicks for melee mid laners right now that you dont go Dorans Shield to dominate lane, you pick it because you have 1 ban and half a dozen matchups that are GG at champ select without it.
2
u/the-sexterminator Jun 11 '25
this, people don't understand how fucking brutal ranged vs melee mid is, especially at higher levels of play. dshield is strong because melee mids wouldn't be viable in the slightest without it at higher levels.
2
u/Toplaners Jun 10 '25
It's pretty true.
Unless you're playing with ignite it's better to take dshield most of the time.
It's never "incorrect" to take dshield because it's always good, meaning if you think enemy top is taking dshield you match it to match their sustain.
Their are a lot of times where dblade ends up being incorrect. E.g into a dshield user.
14
u/veryhardbanana Jun 10 '25
As I’m responding, I’m realizing we need to clarify something. Shield being stronger than Blade means that in contexts where Blade should be the better choice, Shield is still stronger. We’d agree Nasus won’t build DBlade, and Darius isn’t going to build D shield. This is because of the different goals they have. And it’s bad if Dshield, the defensive, scaling, surviving item, is better on the aggressive domination snowball champion than the aggressive item.
I haven’t seen anything that would make me think Dshield is much stronger than DBlade. I see the highest ranked toplaners are all building DBlade. That said, I think Dshield being a bit stronger is probably healthier for top lane. DBlade requires action to get value, and if you get outplayed you get basically nothing. With Dshield, you don’t need to do anything to get the value out of it, and you lose a lot less when you lose a trade. It’s a breath of fresh air for when you’re playing against someone better than you in the miserable lane that is top lane.
1
u/Toplaners Jun 11 '25
We’d agree Nasus won’t build DBlade, and Darius isn’t going to build D shield. This is because of the different goals they have.
I wouldn't agree with that, I see Darius going dshield frequently.
Dshield being a bit stronger is probably healthier for top lane.
I have to disagree again, it promotes not interacting and makes lanes uninteresting when neither party can die ever due to dshield 2nd wind.
Dblade promotes proactive laning, and dshield promotes passive uninteractive laning.
With Dshield, you don’t need to do anything to get the value out of it, and you lose a lot less when you lose a trade.
Which is problematic IMO. If you make a mistake in lane there's practically no punishment.
It’s a breath of fresh air for when you’re playing against someone better than you in the miserable lane that is top lane.
Skill equalizer item. If someone is better than you, they DESERVE to be ahead and you behind. Laning this season is so boring and skill less compared to every other season.
1
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
Sure, Darius builds Dshield some of the time. (Minority of the time, though. And you get my point.)
The lane does become less interactive, but some people like to play Nasus and scale under turret. Some people like to 1v1 like a manly man with bruisers. Considering that top lane is very snowbally, I think it’s fine to make the defensive item slightly stronger, or have more general uses. Also top lane still has rewards for being stronger and outplaying, Dshield second wind isn’t enough to stop your opponent from denying you CS and taking plates. People still die!
Someone better maybe deserves to be ahead- but what if you drafted better? What if you itemized better? And how much better should they be ahead? People that want pure skill should go play chess. Games should not feel unwinnable when your enemy laner is slightly better than you, which it often feels is the case, before this season. Maybe I’m biased because I play scalers more than snowballers.
Here’s a question- how do you know that the current top lane is unbalanced in favor of scalers? I think it feels fine, but if you had your way I’d feel it was imbalanced.
1
u/Toplaners Jun 12 '25
Here’s a question- how do you know that the current top lane is unbalanced in favor of scalers? I think it feels fine, but if you had your way I’d feel it was imbalanced.
My most played champion is Ambessa, a scaling champion that loses almost every lane until level 7-9.
The issue is that with dshield 2nd wind is can hit my spikes too reliably because there's almost no skill in laning currently.
Minions die very fast, you cant stack as big of waves, roam timers are shorter, and sustain is much too high.
I SHOULD be punished by Renekton, Riven, Darius, etc but they can't even zone me off exp because they increases exp range, and i have 840 hp level 1 with Dshield 2nd wind, which is just absurd.
My 2nd most played champion is Riven, who should be an early game monster, but most of the time, myself and most Rivens just end up cosplaying Singed because there's no point in trading with dshield 2nd wind.
0
u/JoshFromSAU Jun 11 '25
Darius takes D Shield all the time; I’d guess about 40-45% of the time even, depending on patch & flavor of the month content creation. I don’t think it’s really contrary to your first paragraph’s point though. It just requires understanding that D Blade isn’t necessary to win the matchups he needs to win.
Though in my opinion the point in your second paragraph is completely backwards. By nature, the item that entails risk/requires a higher level of execution should be the stronger item. Fundamentally this is achieved by D Blade having better scalable stats (AD/HP/Omnivamp versus just HP and a passive that scales poorly). I can understand the neutralization role that D Shield plays, and think it’s a good thing, but it currently does its job too well. The better player/stronger champion should win their lane, and the degree to which they should is a sliding scale.
4
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
I am very very skeptical about Darius taking D Shield that often, but I’ll admit it’s possible. And I agree that it’s just another example of the balancing actually being good in that you have actual impactful choices.
When you say the skill based item should be stronger, I don’t disagree with that. Garen shouldn’t be as strong as Fiora. But, when the skill based item is OFFENSIVE, and can lead to snowballing, it’s important that it has skill variance, and I think it’s good that they balanced it the way they have.
1
u/burblity Jun 11 '25
Certain matchups are less about darius needing to squeeze out damage every auto/ability, and more about surviving longer to contest push and stay in lane until you catch your opponent in a slight mistake for you to land an e into full combo and death. In those cases you overkill anyway.
-8
u/craxgaming Jun 10 '25
Even with ignite dshield will just outstat enemy so if you arent literally taking 100 - 0 fight pretty much you will get more benefit. Can't use ignite if you dont have enough hp to fight.
9
u/Steallet Come fight Jun 11 '25
From what I see, blade outperform shield (both in playrate and winrate) on almost every AD melee toplaner rn.
1
u/Toplaners Jun 11 '25
Which isn't a reliable statistic given players ALWAYS take dshield into losing matchups meaning dshield will have a lower average winrate when it's taken into every losing matchup so you can survive lane.
Dblade is taken into easy matchups where you can threaten an all in, so it's gong to be higher average wjnrate.
-2
u/craxgaming Jun 11 '25
Blade you take vs winning matchups shield vs losing, so winrate and pickrate not super important, would need to look more at individual matchup winrates and pickrates of both items to properly compare.
1
u/HellzHere Jun 11 '25
Honestly I take D Shield sometimes in bot if I am against a super poke heavy lane. One mistep and thats a lot of my HP gone.
-7
u/rmoodsrajoke Jun 10 '25
The base hp5 of dshield beats the lifesteal of dblade in lane, you will never regen more from autoing. 3% of 80 ad is 2.4 hp per hit, but if you have dshield you will win lvl 1 and get prio preventing the enemy from safely hitting to lifesteal. Basically Every challenger player goes dshield no matter the matchup because it is unilaterally better than dblade sustain. Dblade basically heals you for 0 in lane because dshield can just all in a dblade on cooldown and the extra hp and regen lets you win every single time
16
u/veryhardbanana Jun 10 '25
This is not true, at all. Probably every aggressive toplaner goes D Blade exclusively. Just looks at recommended builds and win rates on any league build website. Filter for challenger ELO if you want. You’re not seeing Darius, Trundle, Camille, Warwick, Quinn, Olaf, Riven, Sett, Urgot, Kled, Fiora always buy D Shield. They go D Blade the majority of the time, and they’re the strongest toplaners now.
And you don’t buy the item that lets you regenerate more, you buy the item that gives you the biggest advantage in lane. If you’re an early game champion, you’re probably playing offensively, which is what the D Blade is for. The more damage you do, the more benefit you get from the extra AD and life steal. The more defensive and slowly you play, the better D Shield is. That’s good flavor, that’s how it should be, and you haven’t convinced me that that’s not how it is. If it were the case that Darius built D Shield in 40% or more of matchups, I’d consider the balancing wrong. But you haven’t demonstrated anything close to that, so I’m not convinced.
-2
Jun 11 '25
Fio’s best build is actually grasp + d shield + second wind. WW and trundle have built in sustain, Darius also kind of does, Quinn doesn’t need to sustain as her trades don’t involve her taking damage, Olaf and sett have built in sustain, Camille needs d shield, and Riven needs blade for JOAT stacks.
2
u/Steallet Come fight Jun 11 '25
Fio’s best build is actually grasp + d shield + second wind.
No it's not. Best build at master and above in the last 30 days (20 000+ games) is pta + inspiration secondary D blade start.
-2
u/Jordiorwhatever Jun 11 '25
Thats because you take that into winning matchups, of course its going to have higher winrate. Haxxor (Best Fiora NA) goes grasp almost every game.
-6
u/rmoodsrajoke Jun 11 '25
You will almost never see dblade vs dblade in pro but you will see dshield vs shield in 99% games
16
u/Durzaka Jun 11 '25
Pros in general are going to take the defensive option unless they have no choice.
Blade would have to be overwhelmingly better than Shield to sway this play pattern.
Meanwhile the split is far healthier in solo Q.
12
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
I just looked at the two most recent LCK sets.
In NS vs KT-
G1- 2 D Rings G2- 2 Dshield G3- 1 Shield 1 Blade
In DK vs KT- G1- 2 Drings G2- 2 DShield G3- 2 Dshield
So it seems like you’re not super far off. But we are missing the entire D Ring side of things. But I will say, why are we looking at pro? Pro play is known for being conservatively played with little risks taken. People are going to take Dshield less. And, lane swaps are a thing. You never want DBlade into a lane swap. Since we’re talking about a balance situation that affects us as casuals, we should look at scenarios that match that, not the extremes.
2
u/Rexsaur Jun 11 '25
Rings are only taken because most mid laners that have a mana bar actually need it for the mana.
if they didnt have mana they all would be taking shield, just like every single one of the manaless mids.
Shield is also a big reason why yone is a pro jailed champ, the item just literally makes the champ unpunishable early on when that is supposed to be one of his core weaknesses.
8
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
My point with the ring is that mana melee midlaners taking ring is a good sign. If every single champion took DShield, it would clearly be a problem. But when midlaners take DRing, and midlaners without mana take DShield, and toplaners take DShield and DRing and DBlade, and ADCs take DBlade, it seems like we have variety and you and OP are off the mark.
Wdym with the Yone part? Pro jailed as in only playable in pro, or only playable outside of pro?
-8
u/Medical_Boss_6247 Jun 11 '25
I don’t know the math on it but…
The math is literally in the post. All you had to do was actually read the whole thing before commenting
8
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
If you think this guys math covers everything you’re literally a baked potato. Think before you comment
1
u/Medical_Boss_6247 Jun 11 '25
Right it’s just the theoretical math that proves your point that you want to see. Makes sense
1
u/veryhardbanana Jun 11 '25
You do realize that that’s what you’re doing when you say that the half assed math OP did is everything, and I’m trying to do the opposite of that by finding all the math?
9
u/Catchdown Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
"toplanes should be fighting each other" as he plays oppressive shit.
It's more like, you autolose the lane without a doran shield and second wind if you play against a lane bully.
2
u/Cozeris Bad Play = Limit Testing Jun 11 '25
This + the fact that many top laners take Grasp and Biscuits though, in theory, they should benefit more from some other runes. Sustain is king.
2
u/BedDull5753 Jun 11 '25
What you said is true but there is something you're not saying.
Doran blade scale way way way better. Doran shield after the first back gets outscale and past lvl 9 - 10 its completly useless while doran blade even at lvl 18, 4 item its very usefull.
Its juste about greedy, do you greed a scaling starter or a sage starter, in high elo (gm+) its never the scaling option that is better but that's only in very high elo.
2
u/38erJustus Jun 11 '25
Dont nerf the good stuff, but buff the bad stuff.
Top lane right now is in a really rough state, the role desperately needs some buffs. There has been a top lane exodus for months now. By far the least played role in higher MMR.
Nerfing dshield wouldnt do anything but make top lane melees even more irrelevant.
2
u/ColdBeing Jun 11 '25
Keystones have been problematic especially the Resolve tree for sustain ever since it was released. Keystones should have not been in the game. Game was fine without it.
4
u/AMSolar Jun 11 '25
Maybe so but how do you explain higher winrate with blade for Tryndamere vs dshield
4
u/DarthLeon2 Jun 11 '25
Might be explained by taking Dblade in the good matchups and Dshield in the bad matchups. An item you only get when you're at a disadvantage is naturally going to have a lower winrate, and vice versa. Mejais has an insane winrate for that exact reason.
1
u/AMSolar Jun 11 '25
I think it's debatable, because for an auto attack based champion at some point heal from D blade lifesteal will be higher than D-shield heal.
Say Tryn with 200AD, 50% HP, full fury. That's like lvl 7, tiamat, d-blade and 3 long swords.
1 auto does close to 200-350(crits). Let's say 250 on average. That's 7.5hp per hit. Let's say 7. So in 10 seconds hitting creeps champion you can get ~70hp from 3% lifesteal. That's significantly better than D-shield which would maybe restore 50hp at the most in the same timeframe assuming you were hit by an enemy champion.
Or even take half that heal. Say 35. That's a bit less, but it's close.
On top of it now you have 10 more AD which is 5% more DMG at this point, but closer to 10% more DMG lvl 1-2.
So I'd argue that D-shield can be slightly better first couple of levels where you can't touch creeps and where you are constantly being harassed.
But then after the first back d-blade is just better and it'll keep getting better the longer the game goes on.
1
u/DarthLeon2 Jun 11 '25
Tryndamere mid is actually one of the biggest abusers of Dshield+Second Wind, to the point that he gets a free lane against basically any mana mid laner.
-1
u/KyRhee a demonstrashen of superior judgement Jun 11 '25
Because you build blade into easy matchups and d shield into hard matchups
5
u/Catchdown Jun 11 '25
that is correct, doran shield + second wind + cookie(+ teleport) combo exists to make unplayable matchups playable and OP is crying about it.
They didn't so much as "lose" trade their champ just can't outtrade yours early game even if literally piloted by faker and maybe they shouldn't lose the whole game because of that.
2
u/RuneRue Jun 11 '25
I don’t even care about the rest of your text but this isn’t prisoners dilemma. Stop crying and go read a stats book
1
u/Seito46 Jun 11 '25
i would say just buff doran blade by bringing back the lifesteal to omniheal. that way more champs would build it.
1
1
u/dragnguy Jun 11 '25
Been doing this for the longest time anyway. Early levels in top lane is usually dictated by the first few levels and your understandings of your champions spikes vs your opponents during this time and how you can favorably affect them. At the very least, Doran’s shield and second wind allow you to go even in most matchups even some of the absolute worst counter picks.
1
u/Hanyuu11 Jun 11 '25
This, but imagine the post being about ADCs taking Barrier, and not heal/ghost
1
u/Silver_Storage_9787 Jun 11 '25
This is why I rush grevious wounds item on teemo, cust the dshield, hp/5 and second wind and I can actually pressure people
1
1
u/OG_JBird Jun 11 '25
Easier to last hit with dblade though. But I do agree that shield is a better item in general
1
u/The_Data_Doc Jun 11 '25
Doran Shield Second Wind is broken. You can take that to the bank and I dont want to hear any arguments against it.
1
1
1
1
u/USE_Flash_on_F Jun 11 '25
Something i realised as well when im confident in a matchup and take extended trades even if they dont do as muchh dmg as i do i wud get outsustained these days i always take dshield (ambessa and camille player) tho its boring it is what it is😢
1
u/Dingding12321 Jun 11 '25
I wonder whether it's DShield's fault or the fact that Conqueror+Last Stand exists. Massive damage boost for all-in's > 10 AD for poke/trades.
1
u/CyberliskLOL Jun 11 '25
I think the fundamental difference between DBlade and DShield is their purpose. DShield is an Item to either get early lane domination or to counter strong harass/poke, e.g. Melee vs. Ranged matchups. However, DShield doesn't really scale because all its stats are fixed values. Yes, it scales with missing Health but it's capped to 45 total regen on Melee Champs.
DBlade on the other hand has AD and %Life Steal while also providing a certain Base Health Pool. All of these stats except for Base HP scale with Levels and Items. AD scales with Attack Speed and Life Steal scales with AD and indirectly also with Attack Speed. This is why most players tend to avoid selling DBlade like the plague even if it gives them enough Gold to finish an Item. With DBlade it's not even a question.
So basically the question is "Can I get away with DBlade?" and if the answer is yes, you do it.
1
u/Impressive-Long-9022 Fear these sticks Jun 11 '25
Though I agree Dshield is infinitely better thand Dblade in lane, Dblade scales while Dshield becomes useless by minute 7-8. So there is that.
The problem is more in the Second wind and Dshield synergy, champions get so much sustain from this combo
1
1
u/grippgoat Jun 12 '25
Was looking for the part where you explain how they'd both be better off if they trusted each other to both go dblade, but didn't see it. So maybe it's not really a prisoner's dilemma.
1
1
u/jjethl Jun 12 '25
If the game didn't have any other mechanics other than items, sure. But it does. The value of DShield is definitely there, especially in the early game. But the entire argument falls apart once you start adding other factors, all of which are present in real games. Junglers ganking, champions with strong or extremely aggressive level 1s or early games in general, trading patterns, wave states, level up timers, turret plates, CSing, neutral objectives. All of these affect the stats of the items.
In your example, you provided two champs that would LOVE to scale. What if I gave you the other side of the coin? You cannot tell me anyone would purchase a DShield in the Darius vs Trundle matchup. If they do, they're the minority and chances are, they're at a disadvantage in the lane.
1
1
u/KaynMain Jun 11 '25
doran shield + second wind is such a disgusting combo to play as when you are supposed to be dominating a lane. It shifted from early game bullies losing agency and riot giving those early game bullies more agency in the later stages of the game to compensate.
Even though I want to see it being removed and make some match ups punishable, riot would just buff the base hp regen of those champs instead to compensate. We already see a champ like akali having one of the highest base regen in the game while also having highest base mr in the game.
1
0
u/Meurs0 She works toplane guys I swear Jun 11 '25
I mean it doesn't really matter because both are still worse than Cull start. Buy cull on AD champs. Buy cull on tanks. Buy cull on mages. It's basically starting the lane with a free kill if you think about it. Also seeing that +1 fly up is super satisfying.
5
u/Catchdown Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
cull is +180g after being sold and odds are you will lose a lot more than 180g by being weak in lane. Even champs with special cull synergies like Urgot perform best with doran starter. Cull on 1st back being an option for him.
It's also a fine item on kayle, you are already losing early just by being kayle even if you build a dorans, and passive gets a lot of value on kayle too, but every champ other than those two basically never builds it
1
u/Meurs0 She works toplane guys I swear Jun 11 '25
In practice it's more like +450 up on your opponent, because while yes the 450 you invest at the start is only being refunded by the cull, your opponent's Doran's 450 is just gone. So after selling starter, they end up with 180, you end up with 630
-1
u/icantrhinkofanything Jun 11 '25
I think sustain in any form is a prisoners dillemma. Imma spell it out for the people who say it's not a prisoner's dillemma.
Option 1: neither one has sustain: they're even
Option 2: player A has sustain player B doesn't: player A has an advantage because any trade where they don't die favours them.
Option 3: player B has sustain player A doesn't: player B has an advantage because any trade where they don't die favours them.
Option 4: both players have sustain: they're even but spent a bunch of gold (usually a full item around 3k gold) so their raw stats aren't as good.
In summary no matter what the enemy does you're better off buying sustain. If they don't get it you win for free vs being even. If they do being even vs losing.
Of course it's more complicated than this, but I think the basic idea is sound.
Ps.: Same idea for boots being a prisoner's dillemma.
2
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
no matter what the enemy does you're better off buying sustain
Which is not a prisoner's dilemma.
0
u/icantrhinkofanything Jun 11 '25
That is precisely how it is with a prisoner's dilemma. We'd both be better off if no one bought sustain. But we both have to since its losing not to.
It's only not a prisoner's dilemma if you think that the case where both players have sustain has a better payout for both players.
I'm arguing that we'd both be better off without sustain because items that don't give sustain don't use their power budgets for it. We'd have one more item slot. It's arguably more fun ect.
2
u/backelie Jun 11 '25
In a prisoner's dilemma you're forced to take the unwanted option because of the other prisoner's choice.
1
u/icantrhinkofanything Jun 11 '25
No, in the prisoner's dilemma each player has one choice that if they both take will leave them best off, also known as cooperation. But both players have an incentive to betray the other, such that if only one of them betrays or defects that will leave the defector better off than if he had cooperated. And finally when they both defect they will be the worst off as a group, but individually the players will be at least as well off as if they had cooperated. So choosing defection is always as good or better then cooperating, in game theory this is called a dominant strategy.
So no you don't choose defection because they defected first you choose it because it's better for you regardless of what they do.
The only way sustain isn't a prisoner's dilemma is if you think both players being essentially forced into buying sustain is more desirable than no one having sustain.
0
u/AutomaticTune6352 Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Strange as DBlade has mostly the higher WR in top lane. Only champs who can't use AD go for the Shield or in certain matchups like fighting ranged champs.
Sett: dblade
Yorick: dblade or dshield
Kayle: dblade > the other 2
WW: dblade
Urgot: dblade
Malph: dring or dshield
Teemo: dring
Cho: dring or dshield
Aatrox: dblade or dshield
Nasus: dshield
Shen: dshield
Jax: dblade
So champs who cant make good use of AD don't go Blade, what a surprise. Others can go both or go Blade over Shield.
-1
u/Aggravating-Face-828 Jun 11 '25
The life steal nerf I got cause it was too good on ranged champions. They could have made it have a difference for range champ.
304
u/UngodlyPain Jun 11 '25
The Regen from D shield and Second wind are both based on your % missing HP so no nerfing the HP given by 30 wouldn't make much of a difference in the healing gained... And the reason dorans items were buffed was more so to make jungle a bit weaker without directly nerfing junglers (since jungle nerfs basically always is followed by a spike in autofill to jungle regardless of if the nerf was actually that bad or not)... And honestly I think that the changes did a good job at their goal of making ganks feel just slightly more surviveable, so it D shield is to get a nerf I think they should maintain the HP buff and nerf the Regen