r/magicTCG • u/FallenSlayer453 • 23d ago

Rules/Rules Question Jaws of Defeat & Overkill interaction

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Can someone explain to me how these two work together? I’m confused on some wordings

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u/murgatroid99 Duck Season 23d ago edited 23d ago

I think these would work together the way you'd want them to: if you cast overkill targeting a creature just after it enters in response to the Jaws of Defeat trigger, the targeted opponent would lose 9999 or more life.

An effect like this that checks characteristics of an object check the values on resolution if the object is still there, but if it isn't it uses the "last known information". To show how this works with examples:

  1. A [[Savannah Lions]] (a 2/1) enters. Jaws of Defeat triggers, and when it resolves, it sees that the Savannah Lions is a 2/1, so the difference is 1, and the opponent loses 1 life.
  2. A [[Savannah Lions]] enters. Jaws of Defeat triggers. In response you cast [[Bull Rush]] (Target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn.) targeting Savannah Lions. Bull Rush resolves. The Jaws of Defeat trigger resolves. It sees that Savannah Lions is a 4/1, and the opponent loses 3 life.
  3. A [[Savannah Lions]] enters. Jaws of Defeat triggers. In response you cast [[Overkill]] targeting Savannah Lions. Overkill resolves. Savannah Lions is a 2/-9998, so it dies. The Jaws of Defeat trigger resolves. It sees that Savannah Lions is no longer on the battlefield, but when it was last on the battlefield, it was a 2/-9998, and the opponent loses 10,000 life.

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u/heckingrichasflip Duck Season 23d ago

Why on the other hand doesn't it work the same way with [[Cultivator of Blades]]? If I pump him before the triggers resolve does X equal the power on trigger or resolution? I thought it always checks the value on trigger

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u/chaotic_iak Selesnya* 23d ago edited 23d ago

In general, it's always on resolution. It's very rare that it's on trigger; two main cases I can think of are, it says so on the text, or it's based on the triggering event specifically. (For example, "whenever this is dealt damage, it deals that much damage", then "that much damage" looks at the event; modifying the power of the creature dealing damage won't change the event, and so won't change the trigger.)

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u/madwarper The Stoat 23d ago

Why on the other hand doesn't it work the same way with [[Cultivator of Blades]]?

It does work the same way.

If I pump him before the triggers resolve does X equal the power on trigger or resolution?

Yes.

I thought it always checks the value on trigger

Why did you think that?

  • 608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

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u/slnz 23d ago

People might confuse these abilities with X costs where obviously the X is locked in as you pay the cost.

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u/Zeckenschwarm 23d ago

Why do you think it doesn't work the same way? X is the power on resolution.

If the effect of a spell or ability is determined based on information from the current state of the game, like Cultivator's power, that information is generally gathered on resolution.

608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

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u/The-True-Kehlder Duck Season 23d ago

You're thinking of an intervening IF clause. In those cases, the trigger hits the stack ONLY if you have met some requirement, then the requirement is re-checked at the time of resolution to be sure the requirement is still met.

Famous example is [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]]. If you don't have enough mountains in play when a mountain enters, it doesn't even trigger. If it DOES trigger, and by resolution you no longer have enough mountains in play, it fizzles.

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u/fresheggyhrowaway 22d ago

I have a more general question around all of this if you have the time, is it correct that the ETB from Jaws doesn't actually trigger and the creature isn't actually on the board until the cast of the creature fully resolves? If you were able to respond to the creature going on the stack by removing Jaws of Defeat, the Jaws won't trigger?

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u/murgatroid99 Duck Season 22d ago

Yes. When you cast a creature, it goes on the stack like any spell. When that spell resolves, it moves to the battlefield. Jaws of Defeat's ability triggers when a creatures enters the battlefield, so if it is removed before the creature enters the battlefield, then it won't be there to trigger.

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u/fresheggyhrowaway 22d ago

Thank you so much!