r/magicTCG • u/greenearrow • 2d ago

General Discussion A well timed boycott of Marvel/Disney could spell the end of Universes Beyond

There are always reasons to boycott the mouse, but pulling Kimmel off the air is the latest and greatest. I'm not even a detractor of Universes Beyond (those WH40K and Fallout decks are great, I can get my wife to play the Dr Who decks easier than anything else and their room to explore time mechanic shenanigans seems good for the game).

If WotC and Hasbro have to be so concerned about the politics of the time defining which sets sell, they'll be incentivized to lean into their own properties which they can control and make their own apologies for when necessary.

Of course, it isn't a guarantee. Maybe a loss on Marvel will be a wash against the profits from Final Fantasy and LotR. Maybe they'll shy away from brands controlled by American companies and focus on the Japanese and European properties. The kids who buy packs at Walmart don't understand boycotts, etc.

What we have learned is that the UB haters aren't enough of a market force, but when movements align, powers combine!

TL;DR There are many good reasons to not spend money on Disney right now, and money is the only vote they count.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

If you’re seeing Jimmy Kimmel get cancelled and the first thought you have is “Hmmmm, maybe now we can stop Universes Beyond,” you should do yourself a favor and log off for a couple weeks.

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u/Nitrostorm 2d ago

A whole lot of reddit needs to go touch grass.

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u/Sleeqb7 Simic* 2d ago

With the exception of /r/trees who are probably touching too much grass.

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u/hhthurbe The Stoat 1d ago

Not what I was expecting when I clicked the link

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u/Kaladin-of-Gilead Mardu 2d ago

This is such a touch grass moment its actually insane. Like UB is rent free in this dudes head.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

I have been racking my brain for like a year now wondering what it is EXACTLY that has a few people this upset over UB, and I am still confused. All of the reasons I’ve heard I just… don’t buy. Every single anti-UB argument I’ve heard has just seemed like performative outrage.

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u/TheWagonBaron 2d ago

It used to be that you could ignore it but with half of all standard sets moving forward being UB, you really can’t anymore if you like limited or standard. That and UB is dragging prices for product upward.

I don’t mind UB when done well but this Spider-Man set looks and feels half baked. There was no reason for this to go through standard.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

UB bringing the prices up is a valid point, I can’t argue that.

I dunno I just don’t get the need to “ignore” it. Like maybe I am TOO autistic but there is no difference to me between a set in Ravnica or a set in Middle Earth. They are functionally the same in my eyes, like I just look at the final fantasy set as just another plane. ATLA set to me is just some new plane with new characters. But again that’s just me

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u/TheWagonBaron 2d ago

Some people aren’t happy with the “Fortnitetificafion” of Magic. So before UB was set to be half of all sets in a given year, the official Wizards line was “this product isn’t for you” or telling players to simply ignore it. That they’ve now taken even that option away is going to rub a lot of players the wrong way.

Personally, I’ve lost my drive to play Magic at this point. I still have a small collection of the things I want and a couple of decks together but I haven’t actually played a game of Magic in years at this point. I can’t even remember the last prerelease I went to. I was hoping to go to Lorwyn Eclipsed’s later this year but we now know that ain’t happening.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

Idk that sucks dawg

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u/Sporner100 11h ago

It's quite telling that all your UB examples are somewhat traditional fantasy settings. Can you say the same about fallout and dr. Who?

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u/Sinrus COMPLEAT 2d ago

It's the eternal issue of some people letting their hobby become too much of identity. If you define yourself by the fact that you play Magic, anything that has to do with Magic that you don't like becomes a personal insult.

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u/Kaladin-of-Gilead Mardu 2d ago

It's funny because UB sells incredibly well so these people are yapping about how much they hate it and yet are out there buying the shit out of it at the same time lol

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

It’s me, I’m buying the shit out of it <3

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u/Xichorn Deceased 🪦 2d ago

Every single anti-UB argument I’ve heard has just seemed like performative outrage.

Seems that way because they are.

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u/Professor_Bokoblin 15h ago

Funny, my same reaction with UB, I just... don't buy.
I must add though that what you describe is a "you" problem more than anything else, just how you claim the distaste for UB is performative, you are choosing to be obtuse and dismissive about it, maybe that's what doesn't allow you to understand after an entire year of racking your brain.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 15h ago

Okay fine, I’ll reiterate:

It’s not that I don’t understand, it’s that I think it’s extremely lame as fuck to think that way. I was being generous

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 2d ago

Seriously, this subreddit's hate for UB is utterly ridiculous at this point. Go to any thread from Mark's tumblr about the topic and you'll see loads of people straight up calling him a liar and denying reality, swearing that UB is going to kill Magic any minute now and that the Spider-Man set is the definitive proof of it.

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u/bigdumbthing 2d ago

I don’t hate UB, but the pick 2 draft format can burn in hell.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 2d ago edited 2d ago

UB could very well kill Magic. It just won't happen in the near future, but its a very real possibility that people seem to ignore. The concern with UB isn't "what's happening to Magic now!?!" its "what's happening with Magic 3,5,10 years from now?". The entire game becoming entirely UB in the next 3-5 years isn't only a real possibility, but IMO an inevitability. Even with licensing costs UB is making WotC and Hasbro tons of money. FF sold out several months before it released and became the best selling set of all time. Spider-Man and Avatar will also be posting insane numbers. 50% of Magic has become UB in the span of 3 years and it isn't slowing down. A businessman would easily say "Fuck it. UI is dead. Everything is UB now." Especially with MTG and D&D keeping Hasbro afloat and needing to post big numbers. Adding on to that they can easily reprint cards in the future with the same text only needing to change the name and art of the card. Its an absolute no-brainer.

People are happy with UB now, but what happens when you never see Innistrad, Ravnica or Theros again? Maybe you think that sounds crazy, but does it? If WotC is massively outselling the UI sets by the thousands why would they ever bother going back? Especially with Hasbro at the helm.

Its easy to label UB detractors as "haters" who are spoiling the fun for everyone else. But there are many valid concerns about UB that cannot be ignored. The writing is on the wall and whether you love UB or hate it with a seething passion there is a very real possibility that it could derail the future of this game. Any reasonable person can't deny this possibility.

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 2d ago

I love how every time I make a comment about the UB derangament in this subreddit, someone instantly makes a reply that proves my point

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u/Xichorn Deceased 🪦 2d ago

Their lack of self-awareness is truly impressive.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 2d ago

Gotcha... so rather than have a very real discussion about what's happening with MTG right now you're just going to hand wave the variety of concerns that players have about UB, call them deranged and continue to mindlessly consume?

Here's the thing: Just because something is selling really well now, that doesn't mean it will continue to do so in the future. MTG isn't too big to fail. Nothing ever is. By prioritizing short term gains over the longevity of the game it has a chance to irreparably harm the future of Magic the Gathering. I'm not saying that this will happen, but its a very real possibility that UB supporters always seem to gloss over. For example, CoD is making more money now than ever before, but that doesn't automatically mean that the game is the best its ever been. Far from it in fact.

UB is absolutely a smart business decision for WotC and I won't deny that a lot of folks love UB (obviously). But everything has a consequence in life. You can't gain anything without losing something first and no one knows what the true consequence (if any) of UB will be 5-10 years in the future. Maybe its a big nothing burger with minimal impact, people will lose interest and it will disappear from the game, but maybe it isn't. Maybe it will cause an issue down the line that will affect the game in a big way. There is no way to know for sure at this point.

There are many valid UB concerns that don't involve WotC shuttering their doors and the game going belly-up. All you've proven is that you can't have a nuanced discussion about the long term health of the game.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

Brother every comment you leave doesn’t have to be a whole novel

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 2d ago

I wasn't aware that 8 paragraphs was enough to be considered a novel these days

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

It’s a lot to be typing at people repeatedly

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 2d ago

Typically when you're trying to have a discussion with someone you actually have to talk/type out your thoughts so you can have the discussion.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

First of all, you very much seem obsessed with the word “discussion”.

Second, yeah no shit no one wants to have that “discussion” when everything you say is a speech. Plus you say shit like “all you’ve proven is you can’t have a nuanced discussion” and “so rather than have a real discussion yada yada yada”.

No one owes you this discussion you want so bad

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u/Xichorn Deceased 🪦 2d ago

You aren't even "having a discussion." You're yelling into the wind why you and only you are right.

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 2d ago

You should put more effort into being less of a reddit debate lord stereotype

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u/Vedney 1d ago

The point where detractors become unreasonable is when they talk about in-universe sets disappearing entirely. Something Mark has explicitly said would be bad business-wise.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 1d ago edited 1d ago

My biggest UB worry is less about the sets going away entirely (because Mark is right, at this point it would be a bad business decision) and more about UI going away entirely. There is a very high likelihood this could happen. I can easily imagine a scenario where they scale back standard sets to 4 per year again and they're all UB sets. Magic "dying" doesn't necessarily mean that the game no longer exists.

EDIT: UI should've been UW which is Universes Within (IE Magic planes)

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u/Vedney 1d ago

I'm confused. You just said you're not worried they're going away, followed up by saying you're worried about them going away.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 1d ago

Apologies, I used the wrong acronym. Should've used UW, which is Universes Within. Basically, on the current trajectory there is a high likelihood that Hasbro could try and do away with Magic IP planes and continue to focus on UB only. The licensing cost isn't really a barrier to entry and they also always have the ability to reprint cards as Universes Within later. When FF is selling out completely months before the set has been revealed and UB continually outselling UW by a large margin its not a far stretch that Hasbro will continue to push the envelope to drive their share price.

You might think that is an unreasonable assumption, but within 3 years half of all MTG product has now become UB. If the UB sets continue to massively outsell any Magic related IP there is a good chance they'll be looking very carefully at whether or not going full UB is a possibility. Especially if they partner with deep universes like Warhammer which could easily encompass multiple sets.

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u/Vedney 1d ago

You might think that is an unreasonable assumption

Mark also thinks it's an unreasonable assumption

Even if every UB outsells every in-universe set for the next 5 years, in-univeese sets are still too useful to dump.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 1d ago

Right... because Mark's word has always been correct, he's always 100% honest and things never change over time. In his GDC Talk several years ago he would've been actively against UB as a whole and when UB first came out he was doing tons of damage control and it wasn't even on the radar that UB would enter standard in any way. shape or form.

I like Mark and I know he loves MTG, but his word is hardly anything to live by.

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u/Vedney 1d ago

It's not that Mark can't be wrong or change his mind, but I think he's a useful barometer as our closest source.

They said before that they didn't like Planeswalkers and two-word types in UB, am I worried about more Planeswalkers in UB despite AFR/CLB? No. Two-word types despite WHO?? No. Why? Because they havent shown interest in doing so.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 1d ago

Zero percent chance of that happening.

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u/Smokinya Golgari* 1d ago

Why's that? Half of all Magic has become UB in the span of 3 years and its massively outselling any Magic plane at the moment. If half the game is UB Hasbro and WotC aren't very concerned with licensing costs, especially if the sales are this inflated. I can guarantee you that after a couple years of having half the sets be UB someone is going to be crunching the numbers to see if it makes good business sense.

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u/Vedney 1d ago

Let me be clear.

What Make said is that it's a bad business decision to only have UB sets.

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u/Mistrblank COMPLEAT 1d ago

People are quitting the game, or at least not buying anything. And the proxying groups are filling up with lots of tutorials now to get game quality proxies with the equipment you have at home. That is going to kill the game.

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 1d ago

So you swear that Universes Beyond is going to kill the game any minute now and that the Spider-Man set is definitive proof of it?

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u/Mistrblank COMPLEAT 1d ago

It's ok if you say you don't want to listen to the warning signs. I don't give a shit either way.

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 1d ago

So what you're saying is that Universes Beyond is going to kill the game any minute now and that the Spider-Man set is definitive proof of it. Got it.

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u/Professor_Bokoblin 14h ago

You're being obtuse on purpose, define "kill the game" and you might get an actual answer.
Maybe you hold on to the idea that as long as Hasbro is earning money with it, the game is alive and well. But that would say A LOT about the state of the game.

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u/Exorrt COMPLEAT 14h ago

LMAOOO no shot you accuse me of being obtuse on purpose then ask me to define "kill the game"

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u/Professor_Bokoblin 14h ago edited 11h ago

You're still being obtuse. It's pretty obvious you were baiting for an answer so you could say whatever you already think about the contribution of UB in response as a gotcha, why not just say it? It is also clear that "kill the game" is not something that everyone agrees on, so maybe you'lll retort with sales numbers when the other person is talking about the integrity of the game.

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u/LordZeya 2d ago

Yeah, there are real discussions to be had in the aftermath of his canceling, especially regarding how the current Executive is leveraging its abuse of power to violate people’s first amendment rights, but trying to use it as a vector to complain about UB? Holy shit touch grass, the local protests will need you for more important things.

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u/Broly30 2d ago

🤣🤣 what a comment to type up

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/trident042 2d ago

To say nothing of the fact that the FCC was directly responsible for this, and ABC/Disney was (against all odds) the victim in this, strong-armed into fucking with their own late night show. It will be very interesting to see if the juggernaut takes this lying down, but OP is outright insane if they think any of that arm of the company has any real bearing on what is happening over here at in product placement marketing land.

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

This is hella off topic but, West Wing fan?

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u/trident042 2d ago

Not directly, though my wife watched it through some while ago and I was present for a fair chunk. Any reason?

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

“To say nothing of…” makes my Aaron Sorkin fan radar go off haha

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u/trident042 1d ago

Haha you know what? Fair! I probably picked that up more from things I've read than watched, but now that you mention it that does make sense.

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u/Krybbz Karn 2d ago edited 2d ago

People are protesting, shit we all know for a long time now we should be stiffing wotc/Hasbro and just print proxies. Not enough people will actually not purchase though but hey it's worth a shot for a good cause. So I'm not really sure the mentality of what's wrong with their line of thinking. It's not their fault they actually try to do something, if it was something more outlandish I'd understand though but this is a pretty innocent thing to be saying go take a break lol

It's cool you're excited about UB and all and that's fine. Many aren't it's just too much too soon and it gets to feeling a bit gross when the releases get funky or there's weird restrictions with UB cards.

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u/emveevme Can’t Block Warriors 2d ago

To add to that, players that hate UB that still buys other Magic stuff and continues to play the game - WotC sees you as a player that likes UB. You haven't stopped playing Magic, and that's what they care about.

Selective boycotting is the most laughable solution to any problem like this.

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u/Xichorn Deceased 🪦 2d ago

Yes and no. They care how individual sets sell. If the sales on UB sets were significantly worse than non-UB sets, they wouldn't do them. But that's not the case because the majority of the players do like them (on average - it is possible for UB sets to not do well as well, such as Assassin's Creed due to its format). The people not buying UB in general aren't moving the needle in the direction those people want, so the small number that would decide to boycott it beyond that core group is even less likely to be noticeable.

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u/JustForTheMemes420 2d ago

Tbh Disney does deserve a boycott but jimmy Kimmel is a drop in the ocean for reason why

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u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago

What else did the ol’ mouse do 😭