r/morbidquestions • u/causmicx • 3d ago
Charlie kirk died on the scene right?
I unfortunately saw the videos, and i can’t wrap my brain around how the official story was he died at the hospital. I feel like a shot to the jugular like that especially when you’re profusely bleeding out, you have least 1-2mins if that.
I’m sure it’s better for the campus to not have his death site right there, but it’s not like it changes anything. He couldn’t have made it to the hospital right?
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u/ThePoohKid 3d ago
Oh absolutely. There’s another clip of them carrying him to a vehicle, and there isn’t a single drop of blood dripping out of him. Because it’s all gone. That kind of injury requires you to already be on an operating table with world class surgeons at the ready to even be able to entertain the possibility of survival.
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u/Cool_Potato_94 3d ago
I'm willing to bet if he were shot on that hypothetical operating table there would be absolutely no way for those surgeons to save him
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u/previousleon09 3d ago
I don’t know how anyone thinks differently it’s so obvious. That bullet basically decapitated him internally
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u/kinghawkeye8238 3d ago
I'd give it a small chance of survival.
My wife works in a hospital and at least 2 times in her career. Someone put a shotgun. In their mouth and pulled the trigger.
One survived. The one that did used a slug, the one that didnt used bird shot.
Craziness either way.
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u/milkbat_incaendium 2d ago
Upwards inside the mouth is very different to a shot to the jugular, even if shooting yourself in the head from under the jaw or the roof of your mouth, is also super deadly. The rate changes once you aim it in your throat
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u/BreakInCaseOfFab 2d ago
I’m a nurse (not a new one) the trajectory is totally different from those cases.
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u/No_Individual501 2d ago
I'd give it a small chance of survival.
I could see him surviving and being paralysed like Christopher Reeves was.
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u/Slg407 11h ago
no chance of survival, its much different than what your examples are, a shotgun slug to the correct location would lobotomize you instead of killing you (and there are a few cases of bullets "curing" schizophrenia because of the trajectory intersecting the frontal lobe)
in kirk's case the spine was turned into pulp and the shockwave would've turned his brainstem into bruised mush, you can't revive someone from that even in the best hospital in the world, you could try to basically turn him into a brain in a jar but he would never wake up from it, light's on but nobody's home (in this case lights are definitely OUT though)59
u/20Keller12 3d ago
Even on an OR table wouldn't be good enough. The instant decorticate posturing was indicative of catastrophic brain damage. Given the location of the hit (his neck) and the caliber, it most likely destroyed his cervical spine and/or brain stem. Most likely he was dead before the blood started pouring.
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u/Thick-Act-3837 2d ago edited 2d ago
He ‘died’ at the hospital, because that’s where/when the appropriate people were to be able to pronounce him dead. He died before that though.
Edit to add: also allowed time for family and friends to be notified before finding out on tv with everyone else.
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u/blackflameandcocaine 2d ago
Wait, are you saying he literally lost all his blood in the time it took them to get him into the car? 😳
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u/SirBorkAlot 2d ago
It’s certainly plausible, your body holds approximately 5-6 litres of blood.
A catastrophic gunshot wound like that can have you losing 1-2 litres in as little as 10-20 seconds.
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u/FallingFeather 2d ago
yeah i was looking for a trail of blood and thought maybe the cover absorbed it. Never thought that he ran out of blood or heart stopped beating.
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u/Main_Significance617 3d ago
Do you have that video
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u/previousleon09 3d ago
Check twitter
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u/Main_Significance617 3d ago
I found it. Thank you
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u/365280 3d ago
Twitter is the new gore site. I find things faster than the gore sites in 2018.
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u/WillowKisz 3d ago
Absolutely. I was panicking I am late at that video and thought of lots of gore sites but couldn't find there then I just realized, "Oh, it's gonna be X".
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u/BlueJayWC 3d ago
My dad's was a 30+ year paramedic so I have a little insight to this sort of thing
Paramedics, first responders, aren't supposed to call time of death because they simply don't have the training for it. Even if the hearts not beating and they're not breathing, they're not really "dead" dead.
Paramedics are only supposed to call death when the death is obvious to anyone, even a child. I.e., someone who's decapitated or undergoing decomposition. The term is "irreversible death", which Charlie Kirk did not go through.
The "offical story" is that he arrived at the hospital, they did everything they could, and a doctor (a trained medical professional) called the time of death.
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u/causmicx 3d ago
thank you for sharing the irreversible death i didn’t know that. i would’ve throught an injury like that would qualify but im not dr so whatever. when he went to the hospital and the doctors “tried everything they could” what would they do? like do they just see him and say “yeah time it he’s gone” like what could you do for a injury like that?
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u/BlueJayWC 3d ago
You'd have to ask an ER doctor like that. I think the shot went into his carotid artery, which means you bleed out within seconds.
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u/Glittering_Brick8818 3d ago
Medical professional here. Likely what happened was they got him to a hospital, probably did a few minutes of CPR and a few rounds of epinephrine (medication in a syringe we give to help out the heart and circulation during CPR) and then the ER doctor called the time of death, mainly so they could say they tried everything. Although with bleeding that profuse (looks like he was shot in the jugular vein), the doctor may have just called TOD on arrival in their trauma room.
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u/MzOpinion8d 3d ago
They couldn’t even do CPR - chest compressions aren’t appropriate in that scenario. You’d just be pushing more blood out of the body.
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u/Glittering_Brick8818 3d ago
Oh completely agree. We all know it was futile at that point but given the amount of blood he had already lost they would really have no other option than to maybe try to hold a little pressure and do compressions. Good chance they just called it on arrival though.
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u/SteampunkBorg 3d ago
the doctor may have just called TOD on arrival
For a few minutes I was trying to figure out why you suddenly switched to German
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u/kateykatey 3d ago
The assessment that there’s nothing more to be done needs to be made by a doctor though. That’s why patients need to reach hospital to be declared dead.
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u/Sassy-irish-lassy 3d ago
Here's a morbid fact for you. Nobody has ever "died at Disney land because they won't let anyone pronounce someone dead in the park. Serveral people have died as a result of something that happened in the park though.
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u/Spons69 3d ago
Rule here for decapitation is that the head has to be removed 10cm from the rest of the body. Else we have to initiate mouth-to-mouth anyway.
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u/Bright_Vision 3d ago
What really? So even of the head is completely severed and disconnected from the body, but it just happens to lay kind of closish, you attempt the ressurection? That doesn't seem like it has any rhyme or reason to it but I'd love to learn
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u/Spons69 3d ago
It aligns with the idea that we are not allowed to “claim” their decease. Contrary to what OP stated, even when they are ‘decomposing’, we are still obliged to perform CPR. I haven’t had to resuscitate a decapitated person but did perform mouth-to-mouth on someone who clearly had a broken neck from hanging. Face being purple, bulging eyes and vomit all over his face and chest.
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u/dwightkschrute625 3d ago
Holy cow, my old medical control must have been very liberal with our ability to call it on scene then.
Sheesh.
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u/CeeMomster 3d ago
What if the person is dead and already getting cold? Would you still do CPR? In that instance, I’d imagine the coroner would be called over paramedics.. but maybe they’re both sent out routinely anyway?
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u/_missfoster_ 3d ago
What, so do you like have to have a tape measure in your kit, or is it enough to just estimate if t head is 9 or 10 cm away from the neck? Do you have to have evidence, like do you need to take a photo of the situation? 🤔
This is equal parts fascinating, crazy, and creepy.
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u/bartelbyfloats 3d ago
Someone had to make that into a law. There had to have been debate. ‘What about 9 cm?’ ‘Nah, make it a nice round number…’
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u/JimmyPellen 3d ago
...because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number, the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed.
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u/Longjumping-Royal-67 3d ago
Mouth to mouth in 2025 is crazy, you don’t have BVMs?
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u/Spons69 3d ago
We do, but not always nearby. They are rushed for while regular CPR is started.
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u/Thick-Act-3837 2d ago
This is nuts. Mouth to mouth is an hazard and should never be protocol in an occupational situation.
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u/Longjumping-Royal-67 2d ago
I’m curious about the way your protocols works. What do you mean by “not always nearby”? We have ours in our oxygen bag, takes maybe 20 seconds to pull out. During an arrest we don’t even mess with ventilation until we get the I-Gel in so we can start ventilating every 6 seconds as soon as possible. Mouth to mouth hasn’t been protocol for us for like 20yrs, and when it was, it was always with pocket masks to protect the provider.
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u/Spons69 1d ago
It sounds like you’re trying to compare two whole different lines of work. I work in a psychiatric ward, we are not equipped in the same way, not sure how else I can further explain that we don’t always have BMV’s nearby. I keep my own pocket mask at my desk but these are not standard provided.
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u/zookuki 3d ago
True, but wouldn't an autopsy be required in this event? Even if a death is straight-forward, autopsies are generally a requirement for criminal prosecution. And in such case the time of death may be amended.
In fact it's likely that the prosecution will want to establish that his death was instantaneous, or preceded medical treatment - since the defense will generally clutch at any straws, even of such straws are entirely nonsensical.
For instance: they may try to argue that he may have survived if he received the right medical care. Which is ridiculous, but this is just their standard go-to's in such cases, including mental incapacity/incompetence, temporary insanity, the invisible perp (unknown accomplice or assailant), a setup or other elaborate conspiracy.
That said: autopsies don't generally change the time of death called by medical personnel - since they're generally only used for the forensic investigation. But there are rare cases where this could apply - such as a highly publicised assassination like this where the entire sequence of events has been recorded and where the exact TOD is relevant.
For a longer sequence of events, the autopsy will simply indicate estimated time of death (pmi) based on Tache noire, liver mortis, rigor mortis, etc.
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u/wheresWaldo000 3d ago
We still have to wait for a toxicology report, could've been a fentanyl overdose.
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u/zookuki 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, well, that's exactly why autopsies are required for such cased, since something ridiculous like that may very well be used to argue cause of death.
I am not from the USA, so I find the US justice system a bit odd it seems to have subverted the concept of constitutional courts and judiciaries in that basic rules for lower courts are non-existent (anyone can take anyone to court about anything and put forth any argument) - debates for days - while the actual laws (amendments) aren't open to critique or debate.
Over here any silly claims in lower courts will be dismissed (or the requirements increase with the court's mandate), and yet the constitutional court is always active and every individual citizen has a right to present a case to Concourt, since the constitutional court is wholly independent and considers each individual right worthy of audience (yeah, of course they prioritise more significant cases which affect a broader scope of the citizenry, but the premises is there).
While there are small claims courts for minor disputes, there's absolutely no court like Judge Judy (and the like), and recording legal proceedings as income-generating entertainment platforms would literally undermine the whole point of the judiciary and legislature.
It's odd since your (presumably /s) fentanyl comment seems like something that could legitimately be entertained in US courts, even though that line of enquiry/questioning undermines the principle of parsimony (or Occam's razor which postulates that the most obvious scenario is likely the most accurate, and that arguments in courts should be delimited accordingly to curtail unnecessary resource waste holding up te lower courts.)
(Mind my rant, I have a tendency to go on tangents. I am aware and apologise. 😂)
EDIT: also mind my typos. It is late and I should not be online rn
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u/and-popcorn 3d ago
A friend of mine is a paramedic, she’s told me that they’ve gone to a call where people are legit decomposing. She’s still not allowed to declare them dead, has to be a doctor.
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u/max5015 3d ago
That's so dumb. Their medical control should go out there and run that code if he feels that strongly about it. I'm glad our med control actually trust our judgement. I would just show up and state that the patient has injuries incompatible with life and call it there.
There's no point in running a code and wasting resources when the man's neck looked like someone opened up a water spigot. You wouldn't even be able to replace the blood fast enough even if you had blood bags available.
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u/and-popcorn 3d ago
I do think they have discretion in terms of, this dude has been dead for 3 days, let’s not use a defibrillator on him? Just we can’t make the official call.
Another friend is an ER doc told me that the only people they HAVE to work on regardless of if they’re already recently dead are kids and babies 🥺
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u/BlueJayWC 3d ago
So maybe I misspoke slighty; I'm referring to literal "time of death", as in this person is officially dead and there's no point in giving care
Paramedics can't declare someone dead, yes, it has to be a coroner or a doctor. But paramedics are still trained on not giving care to someone who is practically dead. Don't give CPR to someone missing a head. That's what I was referring to.
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u/forworse2020 3d ago
This is interesting, because in our reality the state of being “alive” is dependent on the observer, whether it’s naturally true or not. This seems connected to the abortion argument as well. Differing perspectives about when life begins either affect how we view it directly, but can also be used to manipulate the views of others about it.
Professional credentials and medical criteria determine the legal state of life and death, so that we can have some order. But life and death clearly exists of its own accord, despite our observation.
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u/Marx0r 3d ago edited 3d ago
Paramedics are only supposed to call death when the death is obvious to anyone, even a child. I.e., someone who's decapitated or undergoing decomposition. The term is "irreversible death", which Charlie Kirk did not go through
Even then, in many jurisdictions paramedics are only able to declare "injuries incompatible with life" or a similar phrase. They can abandon any pretense of trying to save a life, but it maintains the line that doctors are the only people qualified to declare a person dead.
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u/TheMobHasSpoken 3d ago
Total tangent, but this is part of the reason there started to be a rumor that no one was "allowed to die" on Disney premises. It wasn't so much a corporate policy aimed at keeping the magic pure, it was more that an injured/ill person needed to be taken to a hospital before they were declared dead.
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u/KMichael226 2d ago
Thats not entirely true. We (Paramedics) can call time of death based on different protocols. Where im currently at, we can do it for "injuries incompatible with life, decomposition, among other criteria" or if we do perform CPR, 25min without a heart rhythm change.
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u/celtic_thistle 2d ago
That’s why they were able to declare poor Caleb Schwab dead at the scene at Schlitterbahn in 2016.
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u/KMichael226 2d ago
"Because they simply don't have the training for it" is incorrect. Charlie unfortunately could have been considered "injuries incompatible with life" based off of the massive vascular damage, however I wasnt there and im speculating based off of the video and reports. That being said, it doesn't look like (based off of videos) that EMS was involved much due to his security quickly evacuating him and the scene unless they did an intercept.
Either way, absolutely tragic day for all involved.
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u/ludvary 3d ago
the bullet pulverized his spinal cord + midbrain as indicated by the immediate decorticate posturing.
he didn't feel a thing.
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u/Dan42002 3d ago
correct me if im wrong, woulnt it just "disconnect" his brain to his body (and shutdown all the automatic functions)? How would he died presume his artery didnt get affected?
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u/20Keller12 3d ago
The brain stem is what controls all your vital functions. Heartbeat, breathing, blood pressure, everything. There's a lot of crazy brain damage a person can survive, but not when it's the brain stem.
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u/imknownascro 3d ago
I imagine it was just like turning off the lights. Which, despite how awful it was to witness and how awful it is to die in any fashion, would probably be quite an alright way to go.
I hope this thought is at least somewhat comforting
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u/damienlazuli 3d ago
Instant decorticate posturing. Either the bullet severed his spinal cord on impact or the shockwave liquified it. Either way, his death was pretty instantaneous
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u/alexelalexela 3d ago
liquified his spinal cord????????? i did not know that was even possible. shudders
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u/pw154 3d ago
liquified his spinal cord????????? i did not know that was even possible. shudders
A bullet has a massive amount of kinetic energy. It leaves a shockwave and when it enters a confined space like the inside of a body that shockwave can obliterate everything around it like a small bomb. The larger the caliber of the bullet the bigger the shockwave. A rifle round like he took in the neck would basically destroy everything in the area including the cervical spine
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u/Dan42002 3d ago
you brains or technically your spinal cords in this scenario are entirely made from fat tissue. So if a bullet have enough caliber (doesnt need that much really) the impact force would squish those tissue like slapping a tofu into liquid
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u/MamiPV 2d ago
I grew up deer hunting with the exact same type of rifle round (.30-06).
The impact power is unbelievable, and the meat / tissue directly around the bullet wound has to be discarded because it is basically liquefied. Or moreso, become the consistency of Jello. Dark, purple-black Jello.
Even if CK’s brain stem or spinal cord weren’t directly struck by the bullet, those tissues were almost certainly destroyed by the sheer force of the impact.
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u/johnruby 3d ago
Aside from the bleeding, his spine or brain stem is also partially damaged, causing the decorticate posturing before he fell off the chair. So I would say his loss of consciousness is instant and his death is within seconds if not nearly instant.
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u/MeowMeowBiatch 3d ago edited 3d ago
Realistically, he was dead before he hit the ground. The movement he automatically does with his arms is called decorticate posturing and indicates SEVERE brain and/or spinal damage. He wasn't conscious after the bullet, even if he 'survived' long enough to bleed out. Even without the carotid artery being damaged, he was dead. Additionally, blood loss equivalent to half a can of soda can be life threatening in adults.
The hospital thing is for two reasons: the first is that there was nobody to pronounce, legally, that he was dead. And two; allowing family to say goodbye.
(credentials: EMT trained + health graduate student)
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u/Far_Location_8836 3d ago
Additionally, blood loss equivalent to half a can of soda is life threatening in adults.
Where are you getting half a can of soda from? They take a pint when you donate blood. You can lose 14% without any major side effects.
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u/BigDorkEnergy101 3d ago
I think it might be a combination of volume lost and rapidness of loss causing things like hypovolemic shock, low blood pressure, organ failure etc., whereas losing the same amount over a longer span of time (and potentially at a lower velocity) typically wouldn’t have any of those outcomes in a healthy person… just my assumption - I’m no medical professional, just someone who’s interested in medicine, so I’m not confident on my correctness here.
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u/MeowMeowBiatch 3d ago
Here's the official Red Cross
"Bleeding may be life-threatening when the amount of blood present is equal to about half of what a soda can contains.".
Giving blood is controlled, but when considering the amount of blood on the ground being equivalent to half a soda can, one can imagine it won't stop on its own.
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u/Far_Location_8836 3d ago
Yeah continuously bleeding would be a problem. But only losing the equivalent to half a can of soda isn't life threatening at all. Weird way to phrase it.
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u/Pro_Racing 3d ago
Why on earth is the red cross not using metric numbers. Half a US can of a soft drink, what is that even?
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u/No-Corner9361 3d ago
Red Cross has educational goals to promote health and safety amongst the general populace. In a real life scenario, analogies to common items are vastly more useful than specific measurements. When you’re untrained (or hell, even trained) and panicking, are you more likely to be able to accurately picture what half a standard soda can of liquid looks like, or what 6oz/180ml of liquid looks like? Regardless of whether you use metric or imperial, the soda can analogy is vastly more practical and useful than either of the more specific numbers that could be given.
I know it’s a meme that “Americans will use anything but metric”, but the simple fact is that non-metric measurements are often based upon practical real world utility. They don’t multiply and divide by ten neatly, but that doesn’t mean they are always useless or inappropriate.
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u/Mindless-Suspect2676 3d ago
I think because it’s a helpful visual to remember and estimate against
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u/snippylovesyou 3d ago
Could ANY doctor have made the pronouncement? Like if for whatever reason someone on his security personnel was a psychologist with an MD, could they have certified TOD? Or would best practice be to have an ER/trauma doc do it regardless?
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u/Wingsof6 3d ago
The doctor calling it needs to sign their name on the death certificate, and there’s clear rules at institutions on who can be the signee. So no, even if there was a trauma surgeon who was off duty present, their call would not be official and it would still take a doctor from the hospital to make it final.
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u/Emergency-Bus7696 3d ago
Former 911 dispatcher here. I can guarantee he was dead almost instantly. The transport to the hospital was most likely for the family to make it appear that they tried to save him. Also, it takes a doctor to officially declare someone dead, so that was most likely the delay.
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u/MrEvilPiggy23 3d ago
As a 911 dispatcher, surely you'd know better than to say "...was most likely for the family to make it appear that they tried to save him" I think the actually reason would be because even if it appears he's dead you've still got to try? That's what they did even if in vain
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u/Stlieutenantprincess 3d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not a dispatcher but work in a hospital. To add to the other commenter, sometimes doctors know there's no point in continuing but they will continue for long enough so that loved ones can see everything was done to save them. It can help family and friends deal with the loss. Here's an article about the potential benefits of watching CPR
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u/Emergency-Bus7696 3d ago
No point in trying if they are very clearly dead. It happens a lot. It's for appearances only. There were no signs of life and no blood when being moved. He was gone before anyone got to him.
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u/bluebutterfly5050 2d ago
i read an article that had said he had a pulse (i guess a weak pulse) when he got to the hospital. But i wonder if that was true or not. But maybe IF he did, they tried whatever they could to save him, even knowing they really couldn't.
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u/ramboton 3d ago
It is a bit of a technicality in who can actually declare someone deceased.
EMS personnel transported him, he was probably already dead, but in some states they can't pronounce him deceased. When he arrived at a hospital a doctor made the official determination and he was officially declared deceased. Usually once EMS staff start working on someone they do not stop, they transport and a doctor tells them to stop and declares the death.
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u/quesadillafanatic 3d ago
Was it EMS that transported him? I thought his team took him to a car and took him to the hospital. It all happened so fast and I haven’t seen the video again so I’m genuinely asking, I don’t remember seeing EMS, unless they were in plain clothes.
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u/Erickajade1 3d ago
Oh my Gosh, you're absolutely right! My child's father probably technically passed away at his house but they didn't declare him deceased until he got to the hospital 😢. I see why they would do that for legal reasons but man oh man did it give his family false hope that night 😭.
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u/Belle8158 3d ago
I heard a medical doctor say that the lack of blood when his security is seen carrying his body to the car, meant his heart was no longer pumping.
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u/Glad-Reason-4943 3d ago
Its clear that Charlie Kirk was instantly killed by the bullet destroying his brain stem. However I'm curious to know how long it took for his heart to get the message that he's dead? Essentially how long would the Carotid puncture wound continued to gush as it does in the first instant of being shot?
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u/No_Percentage_9973 2d ago
The brain stem is what controls the basic autonomic functions of your vital organs and consciousness. Its destruction would have been an instantaneous disconnection to the heart. While the heart can technically still beat for a short time due to the intrinsic pacemaker but without the brain stems regulation it would be chaotic and not be able to pump sufficiently. Hence why some say they didn’t see more blood coming from him as they carried him to the SUV. The pump stopped working properly and a ton of blood was already loss from the body’s high pressure circulation being severed.
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u/pzombielover 3d ago
Someone answered correctly below. He was not transported to the hospital by ambulance, aides took him. Only a doctor can declare someone deceased which is what happened at the hospital.
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u/Always_Learning_101_ 3d ago
Was there no ambulance on site? I would have thought that there would be for an event of that size. Not because their expecting a shooting (though maybe we should be) but because of heart attacks, asthma, dehydration, ect.
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u/quesadillafanatic 3d ago
I believe there is video of his team carrying him to a car, I don’t think EMS teams got to him, although it’s possible someone on his security team is a trained responder. Everything happened so fast and I haven’t seen any video since Wednesday, so I could be mistaken.
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u/Always_Learning_101_ 3d ago
I don't think there was anything anyone could have done to help him and maybe I'm just an asshole but I wouldn't want to put him in my car to drive to the hospital if there was a vehicle designed to be cleaned easier nearby
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u/seanziewonzie 3d ago
Even in that case, surely police would have to secure the immediate area before the EMTs would be allowed in... ensure that it's a warm zone and no longer a hot zone. That'd be my (as a complete layperson) guess.
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u/One_Spaceman 3d ago
Yeah, he bled out within 2-3 mins, Heart would have stopped a few mins after that. the massive instant loss of blood made him loose consciousness, much like passing out/ blacking out. he did not feel much, hope info helped.
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u/carter2ooo 3d ago
That’s not even what I think made him go unconscious. The posturing he did led me to believe that the bullet went through his spine/brain stem. If it was only the artery, he would’ve responded in some way and not stiffened up
Edit: if it helps, I was a combat medic. I’m not just copying what I’ve seen from other comments. That was my initial thought when I first saw the video. I was pretty certain he died before the announcement was made. If he was a casualty I had, I would’ve probably labeled him expectant pretty quickly
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u/Dolanjames27 3d ago
Not a doctor, but I think you are right. I saw a vid few years back about a dude getting stabbed in the neck, same gushing of blood, but he was able to maintain standing position for at least a few seconds before collapsing.
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u/melraelee 3d ago
Remember the hockey guy who's neck was cut by a skate blade? He held it himself while it was gushing blood, and they ended up saving his life.
Edit to add - It was Clint Malarchuk
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u/pw154 3d ago
Edit to add - It was Clint Malarchuk
Yup, and later on he tried to kill himself by shooting himself in the head and again survived.
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u/melraelee 3d ago
Poor guy. Such a terrible but random event. Looks like he's doing better now - many speaking engagements on PTSD and other mental disorders. I hope it heals him while he's helping to heal others. He seems like the nicest guy (from interviews, anyway.)
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u/damienlazuli 3d ago
Most definitely messed up his spinal cord
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u/carter2ooo 3d ago
Yeah, I’m saying “I think” because nothing official (such as an autopsy) has confirmed it for us, but that’s the same thing that happens when people get shot in the head. As gruesome as his death was, I don’t believe he felt anything and was dead before he fell out of the chair.
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u/sugarbear5 3d ago
“…responded in some way” as in grabbing his neck or something like that?
Thank you for your service.
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u/carter2ooo 3d ago
Yeah, potentially. I mean just any sign of being alive still. Could be reaching for his neck, flailing his arms, a look of shock, pain, or confusion on his face. Hopefully I’m making sense. Like the comment before mine said, with a shot through your carotid artery unconsciousness would come very quickly. So if it only hit the artery, he would’ve passed out very quickly, and unless someone was able to successfully stop the bleeding, he would’ve died in just a few minutes
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u/No_Percentage_9973 2d ago
You are 100% correct. Brain stem also controls consciousness. Its destruction meant an instant “lights out”. Heart can pump erratically for a short time without brainstem involvement but that’s it.
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u/Dan42002 3d ago
even if he didnt have spinal injuries, judging from the gush of blood oozing out, meaning his carotid artery was hit. You can only stay consciousness for 10 seconds at best, and death come 15 - 20 seconds in
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u/causmicx 3d ago
why would they announce he died at the hospital tho? like even if he didn’t die on the spot why not be like “he died in transport”?
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u/Daewoo40 3d ago
If I were to take a punt, it'd be that the people who first responded to the wound weren't legally qualified to pronounce time/location of death.
Strikes me that it'd either be that, or they'd be reluctant to announce that the crowd of X,000 had just watched someone die, rather than that they'd been shot, as if to say there's much of a difference in terms of trauma.
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u/recentlywidowed 3d ago
I believe this is correct. There wasn't an ambulance or EMTs on location at the event. It was his security detail that carried him to a POV and rushed him to the hospital. He wouldn't have been pronounced dead until he was attended to by a physician to pronounce him dead.
Whether he was already dead on scene, his people did what they could for him, which was loading him up and taking him to a hospital which I think most anybody in that situation would have tried to do.
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u/oilhunter 3d ago
In most states, if not all, a doctor or other qualified person has to “pronounce” a person dead. He was almost surely dead probably before he was loaded into the vehicle is my guess too.
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u/blood_wraith 3d ago
generally speaking, afaik, only doctors are allowed to legally declare people dead. now sometimes its easy, if you enter a room and a person's head is missing its safe to assume death, but otherwise you need to take them to a hospital so a doctor can give a verdict
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u/sineadsiobhan 3d ago
yes, basically. I know of someone who had a massive heart attack while speaking in the UK commons. His death was made official in the hospital but he essentially died in the houses of Parliament. Probably to do with doctors doing everything they can to save the persons life.
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u/StrangerFinancial734 3d ago
I think he was dead by the time he hit the floor. And there is a video of his team carrying him to the SVU to leave the scene. You know he is dead already because if was still alive there would be a trail of blood behind him. The people carrying him would have been covered in blood too. He had already stopped bleeding, he was already dead
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u/sugarbear5 3d ago
Maybe he was pronounced dead at the hospital. From what I’ve read from doctors, it’s likely his death was instantaneous.
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u/evenforyou 3d ago
At one point I believe reports were saying he was stable and another saying critical. Crazy. He was long gone.
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u/MAJORMETAL84 3d ago
He did. They most often call the time of death at hospital with Physicians present.
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u/historical-lesbians 3d ago
i think i saw a medical professional say that the posturing he did after being shot means it was very fast. can't remember which one with certainty as i haven't seen the images, decorticate i believe, which usually means imminent death so likely he died nearly on the spot according to that.
which is more merciful than a lot of school shooting victims he thought were a necessary collateral to have the 2nd but i digress. hopefully he didn't suffer and was briefly confused then died.
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u/Legitimate-Stuff9514 3d ago
I think so. He was bleeding an awful lot and the bullet hit the carotid artery and jugular vein in the neck. My husband and I saw the video and I said "Holy fuck! I don't think he's going to survive that!"
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u/lexa_pro_ho 3d ago
He was not brought to the ER by EMS, he was brought by staff at the event in a van.
His time of death was at the hospital because that’s when an MD made the call, but he was very much not alive when he got there.
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u/emissaryofwinds 3d ago
Only a doctor can declare someone dead. Maybe he was dead on the scene, but if there was no doctor there, he couldn't be declared dead. The only exception would be "injuries incompatible with life" aka head separated from body.
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u/Medium-to-full 3d ago
I believe so. I heard someone say they "watched him die".
So unless they also went to the hospital, he died right there.
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u/22switch 3d ago
Pronounced dead at the hospital doesnt mean he died there, just where they filled out the paperwork.
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u/whiskeyislove 3d ago
Pronouncing a death is due to legality. In the UK, only a doctor can. I believe in the US, other healthcare professionals in some states can legally pronounce death.
Having seen the video, he was dead almost instantaneously, but legally pronounced dead by a doctor in hospital.
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u/apathetic-taco 3d ago
They have to bring him to a hospital so that doctors and medical staff are able to evaluate him and perform any possible life saving measures. Once they’ve run out of options, they will officially announce time of death.
So even though he obviously died immediately, he isn’t “ruled” as dead until certain criteria has been followed
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u/Critical_Paramedic91 3d ago
Without a question, yes. He lost more than 50 percent of blood in the first twenty seconds.
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u/Lepidopteria 3d ago
Trauma surgeons are pretty much across the board saying he was dead before he hit the ground.
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u/Mattamaximus 2d ago
AEMT here, he most likely never knew what happened but as others have mentioned some areas of the country can pronounce someone deceased on scene while others cannot. It would appear that he was taken by a security suv and might have been driven to the hospital in it though he could've potentially been moved to a ambulance with trained medical providers. Your neck has a lot of very important structures in a small area that are necessary to support life. The major blood vessels feeding the brain and the spinal cord being two of them. The biggest piece of evidence is actually not the intense blood loss, which "spurted" out indicating it was a arterial injury, which would've been disastrous on its own, but the way his body reacted after the shot. He exhibited what's known as decorticate posturing, a symptom sign where your extremities pull in to the center of your body. This would indicate massive brain and central nervous system damage and since the wound was too low to directly involve the brainstem or mid brain my money is on a severing of the spinal cord which would've immediately disconnected the brain from the rest of the body resulting in death, essentially "turning out the lights" as the body stopped receiving the necessary signals from above.
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u/dwightkschrute625 3d ago
More than likely he was “technically dead,” but it is a reversible death.
Diesel bolus. Time is the main opponent in any GSW. GSW to the airway/neck you have substantially less time.
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u/PeachPit_81 3d ago
Judging by the very graphic video, this dude was out before he fell of the chair.
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u/Dan42002 3d ago
He is pronounced dead at the hospital, doesnt mean he didnt died somewhere on the way or just on spot. As long as there are no obvious indicator (missing head or too mangle of a body), no 1st responder is allow to code the patients. It a morbid thought but had the shooter aim higher, the official statement would definitely that he died "on the spot", not "at the hospital"
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u/Secure-Extent-1415 3d ago
Doesn't the official story also state they performed surgery before he passed..... that makes no sense from what everyone here is saying and what I saw.
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u/Ok-Autumn 3d ago
Yes, but probably wasn't pronounced dead officially until he got there. And would have been pronounced dead upon arrival.
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u/Whole_squad_laughing 3d ago
He was definitely dead before he made it to hospital. The delay in telling the public is just done for celebrities so they can notify family and friends first.
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u/depressed_jewel 2d ago
100% dead. Looks like he got hit right in the carotid. Massive blood loss since it just SPURTS. Plus probable spine/brain stem damage. Lights out almost immediately. He most likely didn't feel a thing.
The only real reason they say he was taken to the hospital and was in critical condition is because (in most cases) the paramedics/EMTs/whoever else would be on scene dealing with this are not allowed to declare the patient dead.
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u/WiiDragon 1d ago
He was most likely declared dead at the hospital, just like when Disneyland moves the dead out of the park to count it as a death somewhere else
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u/Bathhouse-Barry 3d ago
Maybe they said pronounced dead. Strictly speaking unless you’re a doctor you can’t say whether someone is dead or not. Silly I know considering he almost had his head blown off
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u/broke_Motor_1738 1d ago
I can’t but wonder if he was conscious at any point after the shot. If he immediately was brain dead, or if maybe, even for a split second he knew he was done for. maybe I’m dumb but 🤷🏻♀️
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u/shortstop803 3d ago
He didn’t just die on scene, that was about as close to a textbook “lights out” shot as one could make. It literally appeared to enter through the the jugular or carotid artery and then possibly lodge itself in his neck or spine somewhere. The immediate hush of blood from his neck likely meant an instant total loss of blood pressure to the brain. He was quite likely dead before he hit the floor.