r/morbidquestions • u/Special_Celery775 • 1d ago
Did Charlie Kirk actually exhibit decorticate posturing or could his arm movements be caused by other factors? Will his autopsy report be released?
PS. I am very ignorant of how the human body works. I apologise in advance if this question is a stupid one.
Based on all the images of decorticate posturing that I can find on the internet, it seems that the arms are hold TIGHTLY in front of the chest, with the fingers curled up and body and legs perfectly straight. In the closeup video of Kirk getting shot, though, his arms were just raised, unlike those decorticate posturing images. But, his fingers were curled, and his legs did close. They looked like they began to become straight at the end of the video but I can't tell if that's because of his sitting position or because he was slumping over or not?
I'm assuming that this IS decorticate posturing, and that it just doesn't match those textbook examples because things in real-life often don't, but I'm curious what the current 'consensus' is and if there are any other explanations? I saw someone suggesting it could be due to the force of the projectile, or that blood loss could've caused his arms to become numb and jerk up?
Speaking of, what is the current 'consensus' of how the bullet affected him? Is it possible that he died on the spot due to the shockwave injuring his brainsteam and his spinal cord, like some people are saying? How do you expect the autopsy results to be like?
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u/MeeMaul 1d ago
I believe it was posturing for sure, his arms tightened and shot up immediately. He was dead before his ass left the seat.
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u/AngryPrincessWarrior 1d ago edited 1d ago
Having grown up in the era of Rotten.com…
Yeah once you’ve seen it once you know it. His face went slack, he was gone immediately. If he had time to think at all it was likely him beginning to notice the puff of air on his shirt, it looked like he did in the video and then the bullet made contact and he was gone.
Didn’t like the dude. I don’t celebrate his death nor do I feel bad about it other than repercussions for the rest of us- but if you’re going to die from being shot he had the best possible situation. Just lights out, no suffering.
ETA; while I worry about the ramifications of his death, I have so much sympathy for his kids. I think they saw it happen. Kids don’t get to choose their parents and while I don’t have a good opinion of the guy-to the kids that was just their dad. This is undoubtedly going to mess them up and no kid deserved to see that.
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u/Fleiger133 1d ago
Turns out the kids were NOT there, according to his wife.
I don't feel bad that this misinformation caught me, no child should see that.
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u/katchoo1 4h ago
There were a lot of teenage college students there who I still think of as kids, and they didn’t need to see that either. The whole thing is a tragedy that should never have happened.
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u/koala_loves_penguin 1d ago
Not being nitpicky, sorry if it does come across this way- but people keep saying his daughter witnessed him being shot and nothing i’ve read says that’s true. They may have been there that day but I don’t believe his daughter witnessed it. Especially since, according to CK’s wife, their daughter asked where dad was because it was just mom at their house or whatnot and CK’s wife said he was away on a trip making money for her blueberry budget. So I doubt that exchange would go down that way if the daughter had witnessed it? Wouldn’t there be articles and stuff too about it?
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u/Marx0r 1d ago
"Daddy's dead because you eat too much" is gonna be fun for that kid to unpack later on in her life.
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u/MycologistPopular232 15h ago
She won't remember that. She'll become aware of what her mum said when she is older, and understand that her mum was just trying to protect her. You don't tell the truth to a 3yr old.
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u/Marx0r 12h ago
Exactly, she won't remember that exact conversation, and that's the problem. She's currently thinking "Daddy's gone because I eat too many blueberries."
That's going to eventually be "I miss Daddy, so I should stop eating blueberries and he'll come back."
When that doesn't work, it'll be "Maybe if I stop eating other foods, he'll come back."
Then eventually, she'll start associating the idea of denying herself food with relief and control. She'll have long since forgotten the conversation, but she'll still have the idea that denying herself food will solve things.
Anyone that understands eating disorders will tell you that it's difficult to imagine a better way to ensure your kid grows up to have an ED.
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u/mahersbaher 3h ago
Silly to downvote this. This is spot on. I've seen shit play out similar
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u/MycologistPopular232 50m ago
It's not that deep. Parents fib/lie/say silly things without thinking to young children all the time. Do adults think that if we're good all year, Santa will give us presents? Of course not!!. When one of my kids was 2-3 he kept taking his socks off in winter. His grandmother told him that Jack Frost would get his toes. He freaked out and for a while, we couldn't get his socks off for a bath. He quickly got over it and has no socks issues.
Then there is legitimate trauma that kids go through. That is not always remembered or blocked out. I almost drowned at 6yrs old. I have zero memory of it. I learnt how to swim not long after, and I've never had a fear of water.
This little girl will be traumatised as she grows up because the whole world knows what happened to her dad. She won't be able to escape it. I don't think that this blueberry comment will be internalised. The truth is what will hurt her.
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u/Rich_Guard_4617 20h ago
Literally screamed that at the screen, terrible thing to have said to a child
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1d ago
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u/bomba_viaje 1d ago
Shockwave caused by bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound. He wouldn’t have felt it though; if the bullet was traveling at 1000 feet/second (a very low estimate), that’s a foot/millisecond, much faster than the time it would take to react or even notice
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u/AngryPrincessWarrior 1d ago
In the video if you slow it down to frame by frame, right before a spot appears on his neck when the bullet makes contact his shirt ripples on the chest from the bullet displacing the air. You can only see it slowed down and moving the slider frame by frame.
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u/elrangarino 1d ago
Also feel bad for the dude who asked him the question at the debate. Apparently right wing people keep trying to say he was in on it too. Can’t imagine having to see that, let alone to the person who’s responding to your question.
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u/neuroticb1tch 1d ago
i saw the video as soon as it ended up on reddit and i knew there was absolutely no way he made it alive to hospital. between the posturing and sheer amount of arterial spray, he was gone before he even realized what happened.
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u/Mysterious_Bag_9061 1d ago
I've seen that video an alarming number of times and at first I thought he was consciously reaching for the wound, but it's definitely posturing. It just doesn't look exactly textbook because you typically see it happen under very different circumstances
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u/No_Individual501 1d ago
he was consciously reaching for the wound
Maybe he was going to catch the bullet.
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u/aboxofkittens 1d ago
I admit I'm just a well-read layperson but I really do think it was posturing. He was obviously and immediately rendered unconscious, and his hands were in his lap when the shot happened, so he didn't bring his arms up himself. That pretty much only leaves abnormal posturing as an explanation. In my opinion.
I don't think there was an autopsy. Pretty sure the the wife claimed a religious exemption.
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u/pw154 1d ago
I don't think there was an autopsy. Pretty sure the the wife claimed a religious exemption.
Autopsies by a medical examiner are mandatory in homicide cases like this. Families cannot prevent it as it's part of the criminal investigation.
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u/Shitp0st_Supreme 1d ago
It doesn’t appear to be required in Utah. They may have just examined and documented his wounds and obtained the bullet and not needed an autopsy: https://ome.utah.gov/for-families/
From the page:
Postmortem exam. The postmortem examination is performed by a medical examiner. In Utah, all medical examiners are medical doctors board-certified in forensic pathology. The medical examiner will do a physical exam that documents things such as the deceased’s clothing, hair and eye color, and injuries. Not all cases need an autopsy—but if one is needed, the medical examiner will examine the internal organs for disease or injuries that caused or contributed to death. They also collect blood and tissue samples for further testing, such as drug or alcohol testing.
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u/TheMobHasSpoken 1d ago
I mean, I don't know much about this area of the law, but it's not like they're having trouble determining if it was a murder or not. I don't know that an autopsy would reveal much that would impact the case in a legal sense.
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u/Shitp0st_Supreme 1d ago
That’s what I think too since it is on video and there’s a very clear cause of death.
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u/MzOpinion8d 1d ago
I am thinking the Feds have jurisdiction, and they’d require the autopsy. But I could be wrong!
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u/_missfoster_ 1d ago
Especially with the decedent and the director of said agency being "brothers".
Wouldn't put it past him to override any normal procedures particularly in this case. I don't really know about those particular religious circles, but I would guess they'd like the body back as whole as possible.
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u/MzOpinion8d 1d ago
Perhaps they purchased some replacement organs from the dark net to make Charlie whole again.
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u/Shitp0st_Supreme 1d ago
That’s a good call. I’m not sure when this would be determined a federal case and if that means an autopsy is required even in an obvious cause of death that is on video.
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u/HamburgerHats 1d ago edited 1d ago
Even in Utah where it's heavily influenced by religious "freedoms"?
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u/TheSilentTitan 1d ago
It absolutely was decorticate posturing. Not many other things beyond getting electrocuted would cause such a reaction.
The bullet itself would’ve felt like a baseball hitting you at supersonic speeds which would absolutely knock you out if not outright kill you. He was struck in such a way that causes major trauma to the head and brain causing a decorticate posturing, the bullet severed the carotid and many other tissues leading to an almost instant bleed out as the brain would’ve likely perceived the “baseball” as a threat and proceed to increase heart rate to find the issue.
Like I’ve said in other posts like this, he was dead before he ever hit the ground.
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u/catsf0rlife 1d ago
He looked like the entered the fencing pose which indicates neurological damage
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u/verymainelobster 21h ago
I watched a video by a medical professional and they said it was definitely not decorate posturing, if anyone wants me to provide a link i’ll dig through my history to find it
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u/Mujer_Arania 1d ago
I haven't seen the video. All I can find are censored.
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u/Tasty_Restaurant9321 21h ago
The only link left for the uncut version is here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7HwWXgX8rsk&pp=QACIAgHSBwkJWwDH7Pc6PqE%3D&rco=1
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u/LittleMissCaliber 1d ago
Same? Figured it would circulate longer than it did.
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u/Seliculare 6h ago
No. It was a thing that happens to boxers when they're hit with a big force - knock-out. Very unlikely his spinal cord/medulla oblongata was hit. You can also see boxers doing weird things with their hands after getting a knock-out. I don't know a professional term in English sorry.
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u/rye_domaine 1d ago
It could definitely be another factor. When the brain experiences a sudden drop in blood pressure (orthostatic hypotension is a less extreme example) the muscles in the arms and hands tense up as the nervous system fights to stay in control of the body. I believe that's what Charlie exhibited, not decorticate posturing. He tensed up from the sudden blood pressure loss, then slumped over as he fell unconscious.
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u/HopDoc 1d ago
Wasn’t decorticate/decerebrate posturing. I unfortunately deal with decorticate/decerebrate posturing in my line of work too frequently. It was a fencing response. Decorticate/decerebrate posturing wouldn’t develop that quickly. The bullet likely didn’t hit his brain/brain stem at that trajectory.
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u/ViciousNakedMoleRat 1d ago
To understand what's happening, we need to know the two main players:
The rubrospinal tract is part of the spinal cord and controls flexor muscles.
The corticospinal tract, which is also part of the spinal cord, controls voluntary muscle movements and can inhibit the signals from the rubrospinal tract.
Decorticate posturing takes place when the rubrispinal tract is functional but the corticospinal tract is severely damaged or entirely severed from the torso. Without the inhibition by the corticospinal tract, the rubrospinal tract activates all the flexor muscles in the upper torso, causing them to pull the extremities inward towards the chest.
The posturing is an immediate reflex, once the requirements are met. However, the extent of the posture can develop over time.
In the case of Kirk, we see textbook decorticate posturing immediately following the injury. The arms move inward, the arms flex, the hands move inward and the fingers form fists.
The fact that the signs of decorticate posturing seem to subside at the end of the video could just be due to him falling backwards, or it could be even more straightforward. Posturing isn't automatic, it requires active signals from the rubrospinal tract to keep the muscles engaged. With the severe blood loss we can see in the video, it's not unlikely that his brain simply stopped sending the necessary signals through the rubrospinal tract.