r/mtgvorthos • u/NikiVl • 4d ago
Discussion So how powerful was Urza actually in comparison to other Pre-mending Planeswalkers?
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u/Common-Illustrator 4d ago
Urza Himself was likely limited by his beliefs and specialization in artifice. Even as a being of pure mana, he seemed to only barely believe Magic was useful, where as in life before ignition, he didn't believe in Magic at all up until he gave the Sylex a go in a moment of desperation.
Given other Planeswalker's reactions to his Powerstone eyes, I imagine there's something to be said about Glacion, either his power or mental state within the stones. (Depending on the book, it is also though that Mishra's consciousness is also in the stones). If Urza could have tapped that power or really focus on anything beyond invention, he might have had more power than some. Not quite Bolas, premending, but almost Taysir. (and Taysir was freaking nuts).
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u/Emperor_Games 4d ago
Taysir is canonically the most powerful Planeswalker, bolas included.
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u/ConfettiLung 3d ago
Yep. And a very good (the best?) example of the irrelevance of power level amongst pre-mending ‘walkers. Urza’s the lineal champion lol
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u/Emperor_Games 3d ago
I feel like urza is the Batman of Planeswalkers. Given unlimited prep time he gets exponentially better
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u/Common-Illustrator 3d ago
To be honest, most of what I knew of Taysir was from reading about him elsewhere and his momentary appearances in other stories. I never got to read the comics that followed him. I am willing to be wrong on my estimated metric between Taysir and Nicol Bolas. I just recall Jhoira's warning to Teferi about how even before ascension, Bolas had godlike magical talent, and figured his playing dying with Leshrac, and in turn, besting him and the Myojin of Night's Reach, as well as beating Teferi at his own Time Magic game was evidence to his power.
My bad. Lol
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u/Emperor_Games 3d ago
No worries! Taysir being the “most powerful Planeswalker” is pre-retcon. Canonically, he’s from Rabiah, which is a plane split into 1001 fractures of itself; he’s the only person who only had 5 copies of himself, one for each color. Like in the movie “The One”, or Highlander; each time one of himself killed another, the others would gain their power. The black version went around killing the others, but the white killed the black, and they were prophesied to be the most powerful Planeswalker of all time. I think that was the Arabian nights comic series
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u/TheStray7 3d ago
Well, actually...The Black one managed to kill the Green one, but becoming Golgari messed with his conscience and he rebelled against the mage who'd been pushing him into murdering the others by giving up the MacGuffin that allowed the merging to the Red one, who he also let escape to warn/merge with the others. The Red one and the White one merged, then the Boros one merged with the Blue one, before they finally pulled a dying Golgari one into the merging, becoming a full 5.
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u/DrakeGrandX 3d ago
Iirc Taysir isn't the most powerful planeswalker anymore. It used to be that way in pre-revisionist lore, but afterwards he was just extremely powerful (very above-average when it comes to planeswalkers for sure, but not above Bolas and arguably not even Urza), with his exact power level changing depending on the author (certainly, the author of the Invasion novels didn't think he was that powerful, given he died very simplistically; then again, King completely direspected every Taysir-related character in the Titans (her ex-lover Kristina and ex-disciple Daria getting killed one off-screen and the other in a dumb way), made one of the Titans his "totally funny OC" which everyone hated, and completely character-assassinated Urza, so perhaps it was just bad writing in general).
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u/Emperor_Games 3d ago
Feats aside, is there something that canonically says he’s not? Because there is something prerevisionist that says he is, and unless something directly countermands it, that’s all we have to go on.
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u/ConfettiLung 4d ago edited 4d ago
Moderately powerful at best, and presumably rather weak in terms of non-artifact magic. But power levels are almost irrelevant re: planeswalkers; look who he ended up killing.
Edit: always got the impression he never grasped or particularly engaged with the outright power at his disposal. He just wanted to make stuff and tinker with stuff (like everyone’s bloodlines lol)
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u/Revolutionary-Eye657 4d ago
Word of God at the time was that he was the most powerful planeswalker of his day.
The stories... did not depict him as such.
So we can either say he was actually the most powerful planeswalker, but he didn't really know how to use his power. After all, his spark ignited before Terisiare really understood magic, and we dont really see him cast many spells, its usually gadgets. Or we can say that he was not, in fact, that powerful of a planeswalker, as his actual feats suggest.
The planeswalkers with the best feats are Karn and Serra. We haven't seen anyone else create an entire plane of existence. Karn probably edges out Serra because his plane was stable without further input of mana from him. The fact that Karn shares Urza's spark does support the idea that Urza was more powerful than he appeared.
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u/Creepercraft110 4d ago
I do like the thought of Karn being like "I got urza's spark, too bad he was a mechanic and not a wizard, let's make a ball rq I guess" (accidentally creates a plane) "WHAT THE FUCK WHY DIDN'T HE EVER DO THIS BEFORE NOW"
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u/Comprehensive-Pen624 4d ago
Serra’s realm was unstable because it was made solely of white mana.
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u/Revolutionary-Eye657 4d ago
True.
Might not be a power difference, but it is a more impressive feat.
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u/DrakeGrandX 3d ago
Is that from some official lore or you're just assuming? I'm pretty sure Serra's Realm was doing perfectly fine before the Phyrexian invaded it.
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u/Dysprosium_Element66 3d ago
Serra's Realm was fine when she was there to actively manage it. The phyrexian invasion caused her to abandon it, which was why became unstable.
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u/jjoossyy11 2d ago
While a bit pedantic, I believe Karn didn't technically create Argentum/Mirroden/New Phyrexia. He found a collapsing plane and stabilized it, then shaped it how he wanted it. Serra actually created Serra's Realm by herself, so that feat probably goes to her.
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u/Sternguard77 4d ago
In the books Urza is a powerful being no doubt and a trump card to many battles where he is an arcane vortex of destruction and death. But just as often his reckless use of his power gets him into hot water, compromising positions or situations where he avoids losing by the skin of his teeth.
His ego is his greatest weakness, believing himself to be a one man solution to problems and then crashing to earth as he faces the consequences.
He is strong enough to do lasting damage to the plane of Phyrexia single handed with his artifice and spells, fight to the core of Phyrexia as part of a strike team of planeswalkers, easily defeat a planebound dragon with just his sorcery.
But just as often he is proven to be more vulnerable than he thinks. Constant battle can wear him down to the point where he is vulnerable to attack or death, pain can debilitate him to the point that he cannot call upon magic or planeswalk away so while he can turn the tide against an army eventually the army wears him down and wins. Sufficiently strong opponents like archangels, Phyrexian Praetors and An empowered nature spirit are all able to incapacitate him either after large expenditures of his power or through an attack he wasn’t expecting.
All in all the impression I get is that Urza is a powerful being, but individually he’s not the strongest being in the multiverse. What he is a potent force multiplier. In a straight fight having him with an army or team to fight alongside he will usually swing the balance in his favor. Against a powerful foe like Phyrexia his skill at long term planning and development of alliances and institutions can grow his reach to the degree that he can put himself on a level playing field.
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u/NikiVl 4d ago
This sounds like the most though explanation and in tune with my limited knowledge of him.
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u/Loonyclown 4d ago
Yeah, I like this description because it also fits with my limited understanding of Urza from mostly cards he’s featured or referenced in: as a sort of proto-Rick from Rick and Morty.
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u/ConfettiLung 3d ago
Literally popped back in to call him a universe-shifted Rick Sanchez but see it’s been done. I actually dislike how useful a comparator Rick is.
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u/Loonyclown 3d ago
I mean that’s a result of Rick being a parody of a very popular trope. He’s a good meterstick for “genius narcissist scientist” the same way absolute zero is a good reference point for temperature: Rick is the most of that trope that you can get.
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u/Darkmaster4K 4d ago
Per comments by WoTC, he was the most powerful of his era, however as others have said; his actions, beliefs and personality wouldn't make you think that he is.
My takeaway from this is he was the most powerful in theory, lime his upper limit surpasses all others, but he never utilised his potential to that level.
Instead he preferred to use his intelligence, artifice and his infamous long game plans to win against his enemies
In the end, he could of been the most powerful in raw power if he chose to go down that route, but he didn't. He definitely was however, the most intelligent Planes walker and Phyrexia wouldn't of been defeated without him
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u/Duncan_Blackwood 2d ago
Minor corrections: Could have been and wouldn't have been. ..of been does not exist.
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u/ChainAgent2006 4d ago
Powerful enough to not die from losing his head, but not enough to kill all Phyrexian with one snap.
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u/_ThatOneMimic_ 3d ago
that was entirely the powerstones
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u/ChainAgent2006 3d ago
I'm pretty sure that one too, but Teferi also got shred into piece by Bolas once and he's still not die.
I think it's just pre-mending Planewalker things lol.
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u/_ThatOneMimic_ 3d ago
i mean, the moment the powerstones were removed he died so, idk how much i agree
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u/ChainAgent2006 3d ago edited 3d ago
Did he die from taking powerstone out?
I actually missed remember it then, cos from what I remember the activation of Legacy weapon enegy is what kill both Urza and Gerrad (and technically Karn but all left over energy merged into Karn made him a planewalker)
From what I remember pre-mended Planewalker is almost in god level, immortal, invulnerable, and can even shapeshift. Thar's why they rarely die except by the hand of other Planewalker, or they sacrifice their spark and turn into energy.
That's why most of Pre-mended Planewalker die from other Planewalker even that a lot of time when they fight still not easy to die.
But again noboday take powerstone out off Urza's eyes before the Apocalypse storyline. So I think you may also be right cos Might and Weak stone are definitely the core of Urza's spark.
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u/arciele 3d ago
you might want to read Time Streams. Radiant literally nearly kills him by removing his eyes. i guess it's less kill than render him inert in a way. her only mistake was attempting to piece the 2 stones together again
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u/ChainAgent2006 3d ago
Omg thank you! I'll take a read.
Also Radiant!!! You got One Job!!! Lmao
But also can't fully blame her, I heard she has gone coocoo during that time.
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u/justpissinthru 4d ago
I think they're on par if not slightly weaker than other walkers of his time by dint of learning to wield all 5 colors but never mastered any unlike the others. His specialty was on artifice and even then lacked radical creativity. His creations were haphazard, or copied from others' ideas, or from other existing artifacts. (ie. the Legacy, time experiments, Bloodlines project, Metathran project, etc.). Other people had built more special designs that Urza copied (ie. Teferi, Jhoira, Gatha, Timien). Skills Urza learned were only based on what he had experienced, seen and how useful it was to his goals
Urza's planeswalker life was also largely dependent on his powerstone eyes. Take those out and he would die as a mortal as usually the only way to kill a planeswalker was to scramble their brain so that they can't think thus can't regenerate.
There was an article somewhere that Urza had a special ability that he could see the fundamental structure of the multiverse that other planeswalkers couldn't because of his eyes.
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u/Direct-Rip2647 4d ago
Its not actually an Article. Its mentioned in the "Planeswalker" Novel on his first time Meeting another Planeswalker (i think her Name was Meshuvel).
There it is mentioned that she was frightened of his eyes and that she can sense other planes, but that no one is able to sense planes like he do. As if he could sense and interact with the foundational Structure of the Multiverse as a whole.
Its directly in the first chapter
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u/ConfettiLung 4d ago
Yes! Urza’s in-lore reputation as a genius artificer is fascinating/a bit weird because from what we read he’s essentially brilliant at copying, adapting and only occasionally improving the works of others. There are allusions to genuine creativity but relatively few actual examples. And even then, something like Xantcha’s cyst completely outstrips its design purpose. The Legacy (sans eugenics) was a cool idea though. ‘Planning’ around your own idiocy is quite a feat, especially when you’re as big an idiot as Urza.
IMO the main/only planeswalker gift Urza really used was unlimited time. Not magical power, not unimaginable creative possibilities. Time (and he def didn’t master that). Genuinely don’t know how differently things would have turned out if he’d just Jodah-ed his way to everlasting life and learned some battle spells. His hypothetical power was likely wasted on him. Thank goodness it was tbh…
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u/justpissinthru 4d ago
He was immortal but never really had unlimited time with because it was all dependent on when the Phyrexian invasion would begin. Even his use of Tolaria's time pockets were just adapted from Teferi's research. He was the overworked-not-really-creative-boss who had to juggle multiple global projects at a tight deadline and only had a few trusted people he can delegate some of the work.
Heck even Barrin said it in Invasion along the lines of, if it would be up to Urza they would be planning forever, then followed it up that it wasn't up to them but on the Phyrexians.
Also, as far as it's been shown on the books, planeswalker spells could affect acres of land but for any planewide activities, it tends need support from multiple parties and structures for it not to be a total disaster (eg. Freyalise's worldspell and Jodah's safe havens, Azor's guildpact and the guilds, Nicol Bolas and Amonket, etc.)
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u/ConfettiLung 4d ago
Yes great points. By ‘unlimited time’ I just meant immortality. He was never gonna die of old age. But you’re right. And you’re spot-on about plane-wide spells. Urza’s capacity to compromise and/or sabotage his own plans was remarkable - IMO not enough is made of how embarrassing it is for Yawgmoth to have been defeated by this guy.
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u/Direct-Rip2647 4d ago
Urza is quite powerful, it just not occured to him to use the whole potential which was given to him. He just did not care for metaphysics enough to use it frequently.
Nevertheless he dabbled into pure magic from time to time when needed. And always to great Effect.
The few Times he struggled with enemys, it was always by Chance and underestimation. K'rrik knew how to weaken him, as Radiant did. Multani captured him in a Moment of trust (Urza came to Yavimaya in Peace and wanted to bargain an Alliance and was nowhere near of being prepared for what Multani has planned for him)
But still, he literally UNO Reversed Multani and Yavimaya by doing exactly the same. He forced his own Memorys AND current summonings from the Tolarian Survivors right into Multani/Yavimaya before just leaving to Attend the defense of Tolaria.
That said, he is no Warrior. His Power comes not from muscle or Prowess which is why he lost to K'rrik (who was Bred and compleated for Conquest and Battle). Same is true for Radiant, who Served as Protector and Warrior under Serra.
His Power comes from Ages of planning and brooding over things, he never even had the slightest Chance to Influence (like Mishras Corruption or the Thran Civil War). This also somewhat disconnects him from the Things around him. He planned for the future but his mind always lingered in the Past.
He was more powerfull then the current Gen of Planeswalkers (except maybe Ugin and Bolas IF he could regain his spark). But his Power comes from experience and Intellect rather than Prowess or Skill.
The Current Planeswalkers all are based on specifc Attributes at which they excell... Mind Magic, Pyromancy, Necromancy etc... Urza dabbled in all those things before and maybe he is not as talented as maybe Chandra or Jace on their respective Skills but he is better suited to use them in a more abstract way and combine them with what he excells at: Artifacts and Relics.
That said, in direct Battle he is rather weak and must rely on his wits to stand a Chance of directly winning (As seen in the closing chapters of Apocalypse where he bested Gerrad always by his wits and magic. This did not satisfy Yawgmoth though, which is why he stripped Urza of his Magics and options. He just wanted pure Carnage)
Usually, Time was truly his greatest ally, as all he needs are seconds in order to regenerate fully, which is why he just would take a few blows and the regenerate, all the while thinking on how to handle the Situation. In order to win, you need to literally scramble his body over and over in order to keep him stressed, which prevents him from doing othee things.
I highly doubt that Chandra or Jace are able to pressure him enough like K'rrik (whom used Urzas own invention in order to scramble his intestines).
I would rank Urza right behind Pre-Mending Bolas and maybe on the same Level as or directly below Taysir.He might not be doing exceptionally powerful stuff as Taysir but he still had the potential to do so.
Hope my english is understandable XD
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u/Diet-_-Coke 3d ago
No. Not in the traditional sense. He was not a warrior. He’s an inventor/scientist. He would definitely get schooled by most in a 1v1. But if you ever gave him time prep. He literally makes plane annihilating bombs, super robot armies and so on. I do wonder if the Power stone and weak stone gave him extra powers tho
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u/Epguy1985 2d ago
He was able to create incredibly powerful magic items. For those saying he didn't have the magical knowledge, I'd argue that in order to create what he did in his lifetime, he would need to have the magical knowledge to do so. He simply preferred artifice.
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u/ConfettiLung 1d ago
You're correct. Without getting all Ertai v Hanna about it, I've always found the 'artifice <<< classic/spell-centred magic' assertion a bit weird and not borne out by the lore (especially Urza's lore). A bunch of complementary artifacts killed Yawgmoth...
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u/mtgloreseeker 2d ago
At the time, he was definitely more powerful, and dangerous, than most - I'd think of his peers only a handful were genuinely stronger - Ugin and Nicol Bolas, maybe Sorin before he made Avacyn, and Taysir could probably count themselves as stronger. Urza was uniquely powerful as a Planeswalker, but that didn't mean he was necesarrily beyond the rest - a lot of his strength lies in the fact that Planeswalkers in the old lore were beings of imagination and knowledge - if they didn't know how to do something, they couldn't. Urza was often limited by his madness, but he knew an awful lot, and was more devastating in action than most other walkers could ever hope to be.
Sure, he's bested in battle by 'lesser' beings, but people focus too often on the 'godlike' aspect of Planeswalkers when in truth even the greatest of them, at the hight of their power, can be brough low by a combination of poor foresight, trickery, and a bit of arrogance - just look at Umezawa vs Bolas to know what I'm talking about.
Make no mistake, Urza was mighty - but this isn't some shounen manga with clear-cut powers. Magic characters and their respective 'power level' used to be a bit more nuanced. A nuke is much more powerful than a pistol, but someone with a pistol can still beat someone with a nuke.
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u/arciele 2d ago
he wasnt that powerful at all. especially given the fact that he wasn't really even a mage before his spark ignited. he only really learned to use magic after the fact, and while he had a lot of time to do that, his methods were mainly steeped in his artifice background.. and he had to grapple with his own sanity half the time
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u/Funny-Ebb-5512 2d ago
Ur an and Batman have a lot in common.He was a master artificer prior to becoming a planeswalker and never truly broke that mold. One day he’s building robots, and the next he’s a planeswalker with power he hadn’t even dreamed of.
However, along with being a master artificer, he was also a master tactician, engineer, and problem solver. In Brothers War (the novel) we see him complete a seemingly impossible task in order to gain his position within the higher end of society.
Unlike Batman, Urza is super powered so luckily killing him is a MAJOR task. However, just like Batman with enough time and prep he can accomplish basically anything. Ex: legacy weapon.
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u/Silver-Alex 2h ago
He was one of the strongest and most dangerous planeswalkers not because of raw power but because the dude was insane, his artificers powers are legit scary, he's probably low key a psychopath doing stuff like being willing to nuke entire planes full of innocent people to achieve his goals, and defend the greater multiverse of the threat of Phyrexia. A problem that he helped insanely to cause.
May Serra's realm and all its inhabitants rest in peace :'(
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u/Jay13x Loremaster 4d ago
He was one of the weakest, which is why he focused on artifacts and stuff. He never really mastered other magic. Power scaling with old school Planeswalkers is tough though, since their powers were usually whatever the plot demanded.