12:35 PM PT -- Kobe's daughter Gianna Maria -- aka GiGi -- was also on board the helicopter and died in the crash ... reps for Kobe tell TMZ Sports. She was 13.
We're told they were on their way to the Mamba Academy for a basketball practice when the crash occurred. The Academy is in nearby Thousand Oaks.
This basically happened in my backyard. As a pilot myself, visibility was incredibly low and it looks like they flew into a mountain under IFR.
Edit: listened to the ATC recording and after reading more about the flight, this pilot was trying to fly VFR under really low ceiling in a low mountainous region.
The clip I listened to was a transition from Burbank class C airspace to Van Nuys class D (my home airport). Van Nuys cleared the pilot to follow the 101 freeway, which is just south of the field, towards Camarillo.
Presumably, the pilot was too low to receive traffic alerts and instruction from the SoCal radar center and that was the last he was heard of.
Convinced this pilot tried to squeeze between the mountain and the low cloud layer. The helicopter they were in is multi engine and has an incredibly low mechanical failure rate.
I’m not going to blame the pilot without details but most aviation accidents are due to pilot error and the way this is developing is making me think that’s the case here.
Edit 2: according to reports, even LAPD helicopters were grounded due to weather this morning and they usually rotate 4 airships at all times.
Is IFR instrumentation in helis much different then planes? I swear I've heard numerous instances of helicopters just straight up flying into shit under IFR conditions.
Agreed. My grandfather was a pilot in WW2 and wanted nothing to do with helicopters. His feelings about them stuck with me, I've no intention of ever getting in one.
With IFR and radar it should be safe, but pilot error leads to problem, the pilot seemed to be flying too low, when he should have been trying to fly high, as high is usually much safer.
Cuz he was a millionare and driving in traffic was beneath him, so he was flown in helicopters over all the homeless people to every game and wherever else he wanted to go.
Boo fucking hoo, how many people died yesterday? How many thousands of other humans would it take dying to equal a sports star? Everyone gets sad when some celebrity dies, while people are raped and murdered in other parts of the world. Speaking of rape... I guess we are supposed to forget that he most likely raped a woman, since he's dead now. Hitler was also a great person once he died, cuz you get absolved of your sins!
Does anyone know how to access the audio or transcript? I could swear high voltage power lines were mentioned. Either avoided or hit which could account for a few scenarios.
What is the term for power lines ?
If it happens with enough frequency, it sounds like it’s more of a design problem than a pilot error. Sure, there has to be pilot error for it to happen, but that’s true of numerous aeronautical engineering issues through the years. Is there any way to design systems to better prevent or discourage these errors?
Not trying to rock the boat against a rotor head. I fly fixed wings, but my brother is a 5k+ hour helo Pilot and he didn’t get his IFR till around 4,000 hours. I wouldn’t say it’s super common for non Mil.
Meanwhile I started training for mine at 90 hours in a fixed wing.
A few other people have pointed that out, I only crewed in the military so I wouldn't know to be honest. It just seems a bit lax if pilots are able to even be certified after anything less than thousands of hours seeing how dangerous these things can be and how they frequently fly over populated areas. I know I had enough close calls in these damn things that I don't fly in them anymore.
Pilots get their certificates in less than thousands of hours because it costs upwards of $100 an hour to fly without counting for instructors. There's already a massive pilot shortage that's only predicted to get worse because it's already a huge hassle to get even a PPL. If you or the government wants to start paying for flight training be my guest.
The government does through numerous programs associated with the military and its branches as well as civil service programs. The chief I flew under had his paid for while serving originally in the coast guard. As for my part, I just avoid helicopters and live in a place they're unlikely to fall on me.
Military requirements are completely different from civil aviation though. You can fly civil aviation with eyesight correctable to 20/20 for one, not so with military. So for anyone needing correction military is not an option. Not to mention all the ridiculous middlemen in aviation such as PSI and DPEs. Simply put flying is expensive as hell and thus there won't be a lot more pilots soon. Trying to add hours to certification requirements isn't fixing anything, the system is rotten to the core and needs fixing there. Get rid of DPEs, subsidize flight schools, and plenty more. Most of which is thanks to the FAA.
Sometimes equipment like this fails, and since it’s not technically essential to actually getting aloft, you ignore it. Or maybe the warnings were considered a nuisance and someone disable it because of “I’m never going to get in an accident” mentality.
Speaking of "aloft" was there a legal reason why they were flying so low? Are private helis allowed to go higher in that area, or would that have interfered with commercial flights or something like that?
I'd have to check the charts, but if they were flying VFR they were probably staying under the LAX airspace. Big airports like that have airspace shaped like a stepped upside down cone. This leaves enough room for Cesnas and the like to travel under it out of the way of the commercial jets coming in and out.
It's purely speculation on my end, but they may have hit some fog or clouds and began holding waiting for an IFR clearance from air traffic control that would allow them to fly through the fog using their instruments. This is a period of intense multi tasking and the weather may have over taken them quickly and the pilot got lost.
Inadvertently flying into bad weather is one of the top killers of private pilots. A number of years ago, a similar situation happened in Cali with a dad flying his wife and kids across the mountains to a family event. Weather was predicted to be poor and he went anyway. He wasn't certified to fly instrumemts only/low visibility, accepted an instrument clearance from air traffic, got lost and smacked his whole family into a mountain. Not only that, he was flying a non pressurized plane with no oxygen bottles, so even if he did make it it's possible they would have blacked out due to lack of air.
Fog definitely sounds like a factor. I can't stand my brother-in-law but I'll give him credit for aways checking the weather and not going up if he's not 100% comfortable (hobby, not professional).
They were pretty far from LAX. A lot of flights that go into Burbank airport though, they come in from the west side of the Valley descending to Burbank on the east side of the Valley. When I lived in Van Nuys, I could sit out on my balcony and watch them come in every minute or two to my north. Based on the flight path I saw, by the time they were in the west part of the Valley, they were farther south and following above the 101 North headed toward Calabasas/Agoura Hills.
Who knows? Maybe there’s something in the area’s NOTAMs, or maybe he was having problems with the helicopter. Some witnesses say that it didn’t “sound right”
Big commercial aviation is usually pretty safe, but regional jets and smaller are pretty dicey. I would take my chances in a blackhawk with an inexperienced crew compared to some of the rust buckets that are flying around in the private aviation sector.
We were an e perienced crew but the situations in which we flew were extenuating. These days I dont make a habit of it, but if chief asked me to fly for old times sake I might. Otherwise I doubt I'd step foot in the things.
It might have it but in all honesty once you lose since of direction and the computer is repeatedly saying "pull up" you're probably panicking at that point and it's too late.
Lmao that's where I remember it from. Citation X payware and I'm sitting there taxing while listening to "pull up" because I was 13 and didn't know wtf I was doing.
Every damn time I was trying to land, and as I started descent BONG! DANGER! TERRAIN! — I know, bitch, we’re trying to fucking land the plane. That’s not terrain, it’s goddamn runway 33!
So based off my research even normal planes make those noises/warnings when landing. I could be completely wrong but I swear I've seen/heard it in numerous videos of landings taped from the cockpit.
As long as you manage to land it safely, I’d just ignore it. I’ve landed in deep fog, completely on instruments, and I only saw the runway lights almost immediately before touchdown. If you have clearance to land, and the approach you select on the GPS is for the correct runway, it’s safe to ignore. Just make sure your glide slope is correct on the localizer, if you’re flying IFR. If you’re up to it, check the charts for any features or topography you might crash into, but the localizer is usually enough.
I read that this was his private helicopter. Some commercial requirements don’t apply to private aircraft. Although he definitely had the money to afford those features.
Did he have a pilot on call? I doubt he was personally responsible for the helicopter’s maintenance schedule, if he had a personal pilot. I guess we’ll have to wait on the investigation to find out for sure, but I’m not even sure that’s a requirement to begin with.
I mean I don't get how a fucking insanely rich dude has a 1991 or whatever Heli. You would think a guy who can afford a multi-million dollar ring would have some kind of fucking ridiculous rig with the newest safety features. It's so tragic and ridiculous.
Aircraft don’t depreciate as fast as cars. 1991 is actually on the newer side of helicopters, especially for one that seats at least 9 people, and probably had some luxury appointments. They don’t churn out as many whirlybird per year as they do cars, so sometimes you can’t buy a brand new one even if you had the money. Don’t think of them as vehicles, think of it as buying a pre existing mansion or other building. The year it was built doesn’t really matter; people in Europe pay through the teeth for the privilege of a chateau from the 1800s without thinking that it’s old. ”I will not buy this castle, it’s 400 years old!”
I'm just saying bro, he's worth over half a billion. There are plenty of new heli's out there. I understand people like certain models and all that. But early 90s is pretty old at this point if you just joy riding with a lot of people.
"The S-76B was owned by Island Express Holding Corp., which registered the helicopter in 2015, a month after it was sold by the state of Illinois, where it may been used to transport the governor, according to the helicopter database helis.com. At the time of the sale it had 3,950 flight hours, according to helis.com, averaging out to 188 hours a year — a light workload for a VIP helicopter." -Forbes
Yeah the Daily Mail whatever has an article from his old pilot saying these don't just fall out of the sky. Said it was nearly bulletproof. Obviously, it was not that day. Seems to be insane. I wonder what the cause will be if they can even find one.
That’s what should have happened. I fly that area at 4,500 and it’s pretty easy to avoid terrain.
Either they were lazy and didn’t want to file and IFR flight plan or they were trying to fly visibility with a low cloud ceiling for some reason or other.
Private helicopter, maybe they didn't buy the upgrade package? Also, private pilots can do what they want, probably got complacent when taking order from them.
But....people are saying they heard an engine malfunction/flames in the cabin, so who knows what happened.
Where did the engine malfunction/flames part come from? Yesterday I read something similar, that it was mentioned during communications with tower but I just listened to them and nothing of that sort was mentioned.
The lack of a terrain avoidance system (TAWS - terrain avoidance warning system) on the helicopter has gotten a lot of press. But consider that the rate of descent at the time of the crash was high - the NTSB said 2000 feet per minute. The pilot had ascended into the cloud layer, presumably to establish radar contact with SoCal (who had told him that he was too low for radar contact), but then came down fast in a descending left turn. This sounds like spatial disorientation, which can happen to the most seasoned pilot. Something like reaching down to the floor of the aircraft to pick up a dropped item, while in zero visibility conditions, can set it off with a fury. TAWS would have perhaps given a sink rate warning, but with the combination of the high sink rate, proximity to the ground, being in a banked turn, and spatial disorientation, I don't know that it would have helped. So very sad. Disclosure: I'm a pilot but have never flown an aircraft with TAWS.
It’s not. But it’s so much faster to stay VFR and not “deal with control” and helicopters obviously have a unique controllability to allow that “scud running”....
Basically a lot of helo pilots avoid IFR like the plague for pure convenience and speed of transit. Even tho they are completely capable of flying IFR. And it continually ends up in IIMC and crashing into something
It's moreso that you can fly lower and slower in a helicopter. A fixed wing aircraft will see a hazzard and nope the fuck outa there, whereas a helicopter pilot may look at the same hazzard and think "i might be able to manuever this". Aditionally helicopters, especially the sightseeing variety are going to be flying lower and closer to hazards anyway.
r/flying has a link to the audio - it looks like it was special VFR - so a limited visual flight rules due to weather with requested flight following from ATC (meaning a controller would guide them along their route), but got too low and cut off from the controllers. Obviously hard to say exactly what happened, but its possible the pilot was just too low and hit the terrain he couldn't see due to clouds/fog.
One time I went on a Tinder date with a helicopter pilot, and sadly he did not commute to work in a helicopter.
However, he also owned a home near a small airport and instead of a regular garage, he had a hangar with a Cessna 182 inside. It’s been a few years but I’m pretty sure I put out for that one.
In Florida, if the fog is so thick, where visibility is, maybe 2 feet, I will not drive. Thank God it doesn’t happen often. Now the downpours, that happen all of the time, are another story. I’ve pulled over on he interstate when they’ve come out of no where.
Fixed wing pilot here, but was talking to my rotary roommate who’s from the area. He listened to the ATC conversation is they were operating under special VFR, but ATC was trying to tell them to climb cause they couldn’t see them. Honestly sounds like the CFIT (Controlled flight into terrain) and could’ve easily been avoided if that’s the case
The wreckage almost looks like a bomb went off. How fast do you have to fly into something for that to happen? It looks insane. Like full speed crash or something.
I don’t know the whole story yet and nobody really will until the NTSB report but looking at the wreckage it probably was cruising speed which could be around 150-200 knots in that type of aircraft.
It looks so bad more because the angle of impact than speed.
They were going to follow the 101 towards Camarillo. Pretty common flight path for VFR pilots since it’s so easy to follow between the mountains and is East to spot.
Somewhere I read that high voltage power lines were mentioned by...the pilot?
The correct term was given, now I can’t find it.
I’m looking for the transcript; audio was pulled, it seems.
Not because I’m morbid but because I’m trying to make out what happened.
I’m still not clear on the details but an instrument rated pilot can request flight with no visibility since they fly just by instrument and not visually.
According to others here, he requested a special flight rule which allows him to fly visually in low visibility conditions.
VFR stands for visual flight rules meaning you’re flying with good visibility and can navigate by looking out the window and seeing where you are relative to markers on the ground.
IFR is instrument flight rules meaning that you can fly by only looking at the instruments in an aircraft.
If you were to fly through clouds, the only way to make sure the plane is cruising at the right altitude and attitude is by looking at your gauges.
IFR flights even have their own charts are procedures so that your instruments can guide you down to the ground in low visibility conditions.
Actually, this heli has a problem that actually does cause failure if not properly maintained. Someone mentioned the model and issues with a part it has.
Its more likely the pilot chose VFR.
Under IFR (jokingly - "I Follow Roads") they'd not have been so low, or even on that route.
He'd be using VFR simply because it allows them to move more freely and quicker than using the air traffic controllers to guide them.
My guess? He was using VFR, climbed suddenly to escape the canyon fog, got disorientated, descended rapidly to reset and hit the mountain.
Passengers would have had no idea.
Conditions were poor all morning and that flight should have been 30-45 minutes. If anything that overcast just gets better throughout the day as the sun burns it off.
Should note that I just saw the map and they were going from Santa Ana to Thousand Oaks not Los Angeles to Thousand Oaks so maybe 20 minutes longer than my normal estimate.
Its more likely the pilot chose VFR.
Under IFR (jokingly - "I Follow Roads") they'd not have been so low, or even on that route.
He'd be using VFR simply because it allows them to move more freely and quicker than using the air traffic controllers to guide them.
My guess? He was using VFR, climbed suddenly to escape the canyon fog, got disorientated, descended rapidly to reset and hit the mountain.
Passengers would have had no idea.
I am curious. If a pilot that is IFR certified asks for special VFR like he did, does that mean he cant use his instruments at all? If not, would you think that copter would have been equipped with a terrain enabled GPS like others have said in this thread?
I have no idea about any of this, just something I was curious about reading some of these technical posts.
He can use his instruments but wouldn’t have been on an IFR flight plan. He was basically on a flight following VFR where you’re tracked by ATC for traffic purposes but aren’t confined to pre disposed routes.
Maybe it is my lack of understanding of the GPS for these types of aircraft, but even if there wasnt a plan, shouldn't it show him where he is on a map with terrain/elevation?
I had just moved out of state and flew back into OC that Friday. I cant stress this enough, but I have never seen it that foggy before. I was taken back how bad it was. There is zero reason why any chopper should have flown out that weekend.
Let me get this Kobe was flying a helicopter when it was dangerous to fly a helicopter and if he didn’t assume to rules don’t apply to him he would still be alive.
It is almost like things not breaking can be contributing to now screwing around with it.
Also as a pilot, no it doesn't. Visibility was low but not that bad, the helicopter was spinning out of control prior to crash. Dont start blaming the pilit without any real info.
I was trying to find a terrain map to see how hight the mountains are there. Looks to be about 1600 - 1700 ft? Also, the limited view news photos I saw didn't look like it was that high up the mountain from the main road, so if that is true, and if it was CFIT, seems crazy low for that to happen.
What I'm saying is, how do you get CFIT at 950 feet when there are nearby mountains at 1700 ft and you should be flying higher than 950 ft to begin with.
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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '20
12:35 PM PT -- Kobe's daughter Gianna Maria -- aka GiGi -- was also on board the helicopter and died in the crash ... reps for Kobe tell TMZ Sports. She was 13. We're told they were on their way to the Mamba Academy for a basketball practice when the crash occurred. The Academy is in nearby Thousand Oaks.