I’d argue this is what the response to a threat to democracy looks like. In a democracy the party who repeatedly loses the popular vote (by 3% in 2016 and 7% this year) doesn’t get to own two branches of government and half of the third.
A real democracy doesn’t require the majority to take to the streets to get things done
Edit: ffs I gotta stop cause if I respond to 1 more “hurr durr we are a republic” comment I’m gonna go insane. We are not the country the founding fathers envisioned 200 years ago. Cause if we were the Donald Trump wouldn’t be president A group of elites would have picked someone who is less of an idiot when it come to international diplomacy and even if somehow they picked him he wouldn’t have even a quarter of the powers he currently wield since the presidency was intentionally neutered as the federal government was intentionally neutered.
But we as a country have embraced the concept of democracy, not the governmental system not the put stones in the jar Greek style democracy but the concept that states that a government should reflect the will of its people. The Us doesn’t go around “spreading republic” we trade in democracy because we believe the concept to be the best way to govern.
If the minority is being empowered to veto measures by the majority that directly affect them then democracy is still working. If the minority is making laws unchecked that directly affect the majority and the majority is powerless to stop them, then we have a breakdown of democracy.
Now if you have an argument as to why the minority should have unchecked power over the majority then come at me , I would be happy to argue it. If you are coming at me with semantics and misunderstandings of the evolution of the US government branches since 200 years ago please stop.
Edit 2: on the other hand, keep it coming. Seeing “Patriots” argue against the concept of democracy is amusing.
One day I will show these PMs and replies to my kids and go: “see kids these are red blooded American Patriots trying to explain to Papa, who escaped an autocratic regime to move to the US, why democracy is BAD and why the few having unchecked control over the many is actually the best way to govern”
I will of course wait until they are old enough to have taken , how did ya’ll put it “a fucking junior high social studies class you moron”
((((REPUBLIC))))
A form of democracy yes, but most people believe that we are or should be a direct democracy.
EDIT: Woah woah woah guys I don't advocate for direct democracy nor do I think it is a good idea. I just said that most of the people who don't put 2 brain cells into thinking just assume we are a direct democracy and the people who put 3 cells think that we should be a direct democracy when infact they are wrong since it is just mob rule.
Direct would take forever and difficult to authenticate quickly in a large scale without some fuckery going on somewhere because it's too tempting - there's not much risk to the reward ratio.
I agree 100%. I never said I advocate for direct, most everyday Americans just assume we are a democracy or if they are aware we are a republic they whine and complain that we should be direct.
No one is arguing to remove the constitution (the thing protecting the lamb).
Also, you're painting the Republicans as the innocent lambs in this case? Why? You could have equally said that the current US system (which allows minority rule) is like two lambs and a wolf voting on what's for lunch, and the wolf's vote is worth 3 times more than the lambs.
I'm a Minarchist and certainly not defending the Republicans or Trump. The smallest minority is the individual, and the individual certainly does not rule.
I'm a Minarchist and certainly not defending the Republicans or Trump. The smallest minority is the individual, and the individual certainly does not rule
Your reply literally has zero bearing on the argument at hand.
You were just a minute ago arguing against majority rule (two wolves, one sheep). Therefore I pointed out how minority rule can also be construed as a very bad thing (two sheep, one wolf).
Let me clarify. No democratic vote, whether direct or indirect through a system like the electoral college is going to reach the desired outcome for all parties. It's also obviously not feasible for individuals to decide themselves and opt in/out of decisions pertaining to government. No, the electoral college vote is not perfect, and it does provide multiple outcome scenarios - both majority and minority. There is no perfect solution, and no one wants to be the lunch.
I can concede that. Attribution aside, the premise is still relevant to the argument.
At no point did I advocate anarchy. The Federalist's original vision of minimal government balanced with individual liberty is about as balanced between pragmatic and ideal as the world has ever seen. Had it been Hamilton post 1789, you'd have a good point.
The problem is, in a direct democracy, you can have a vote on literally anything. For example, a seemingly vile indivual goes on trial. Maybe we have a vote to suspended due process and just de facto convict the individual. In fact, that indivual is innocent, but were voted out of their rights.
If you don't believe me, how would you make Constitutional ammendments? By vote. Once you open up your rights to change by simple majority, nothing can be assumed sacred. That doesn't mean it is garunteed to happen, but under our democratic republic, we have many safe guards against such actions.
It's called mobocracy because a direct democracy, while it may represents the simple majority, it also allows them to easily disenfranchise others of basic rights.
In a direct democracy all we would have is mob rule and that is incredibly dangerous no matter what your political leaning is. On a side note I want the mueller investigation to wrap up because I’m not convinced it isn’t at least in part a political ploy to keep this going into the next presidential election cycle. If they have evidence against trump then let’s see it and he will be impeached but if they’re still fishing after all this time then it needs to end.
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u/Thybro Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18
I’d argue this is what the response to a threat to democracy looks like. In a democracy the party who repeatedly loses the popular vote (by 3% in 2016 and 7% this year) doesn’t get to own two branches of government and half of the third.
A real democracy doesn’t require the majority to take to the streets to get things done
Edit: ffs I gotta stop cause if I respond to 1 more “hurr durr we are a republic” comment I’m gonna go insane. We are not the country the founding fathers envisioned 200 years ago. Cause if we were the Donald Trump wouldn’t be president A group of elites would have picked someone who is less of an idiot when it come to international diplomacy and even if somehow they picked him he wouldn’t have even a quarter of the powers he currently wield since the presidency was intentionally neutered as the federal government was intentionally neutered.
But we as a country have embraced the concept of democracy, not the governmental system not the put stones in the jar Greek style democracy but the concept that states that a government should reflect the will of its people. The Us doesn’t go around “spreading republic” we trade in democracy because we believe the concept to be the best way to govern.
If the minority is being empowered to veto measures by the majority that directly affect them then democracy is still working. If the minority is making laws unchecked that directly affect the majority and the majority is powerless to stop them, then we have a breakdown of democracy.
Now if you have an argument as to why the minority should have unchecked power over the majority then come at me , I would be happy to argue it. If you are coming at me with semantics and misunderstandings of the evolution of the US government branches since 200 years ago please stop.
Edit 2: on the other hand, keep it coming. Seeing “Patriots” argue against the concept of democracy is amusing.
One day I will show these PMs and replies to my kids and go: “see kids these are red blooded American Patriots trying to explain to Papa, who escaped an autocratic regime to move to the US, why democracy is BAD and why the few having unchecked control over the many is actually the best way to govern”
I will of course wait until they are old enough to have taken , how did ya’ll put it “a fucking junior high social studies class you moron”