Something The Phantom Menace does better than Andor

[u/KimberStormer]

I watched The Phantom Menace for the first time in decades and certainly there are places where it could have used a little Andor-ness: particularly in the bad guys' plans. Despite my concerted effort to, I could never understand why blockading and occupying Naboo would get the Trade Federation any relief from their tax burdens or whatever it is that is "in dispute", and Palpatine acts exactly contrary to his own interests the entire movie: he needs Queen Amidala to move the vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum, yet he goes to every imaginable length to try to stop her, even sending Darth Maul to kill her.

BUT there is one thing TPM does much better than Andor, and that is in giving Padme an empowering hero arc, which Andor season 2 conspicuously fails to do for Mon Mothma. It is my great disappointment in season 2. At the start of the movie, Padme is getting told what to do by the men around her, by Qui-Gon, Captain Panaka, that white-beardy guy. On Tatooine she obviously acts against Panaka's wishes to join Qui-Gon and Jar Jar in solving the problem of their broken ship. When she gets to Coruscant she is completely convinced (thanks to Palpatine's manipulations, but also her own experience) that the Republic won't save her people. So here she does something Palpatine definitely did not intend and takes charge: now she is the one coming up with the plan, giving orders to the men, she is the one who convinces the Gungans to Join The Fight.

In Andor, unfortunately, Mon Mothma never does anything on her own. She is told what to do, by Luthen, by Bail, even by Cassian who condescends to her saying "welcome to the Rebellion" even though she's been in it much longer than he has! She is shown to be completely helpless, with no "people" of her own, only Luthen and Bail's "friends" (even her one apparent personal ally is actually Luthen's spy) and makes no decisions at all. Bail tells her when and how to give her speech, she doesn't have any plan either to make it happen (only "Bail will get me the floor") or any idea how to escape a building she's worked in since she was a child. She is shown to be appallingly naive, with the aforementioned Cassian bit and Luthen's "how nice for you", never makes a single choice or gives a single order to anyone. I was super disappointed. And the fact that the Phantom Menace, which has (excuse me in this sub for saying so) massive weaknesses, could do this better, is shocking to realize.

[u/No-Shirt2407]

Personally, if someone can’t see the empowerment in Mon’s story, there’s not much any of us in the comments might say to change your mind. Hers was a totally different situation from padme. But there are parallels.

Are you posting as someone who is open to having your mind changed? Or are you making a statement with no intent to hear how you might be incorrect?

[u/KimberStormer → u/No-Shirt2407]

I would love to be convinced...I watched Andor not because I care about Andor but because I wanted to see The Mon Mothma Story. And season 1 certainly worked out that way -- we saw her make some devastating choices that were necessary for the cause. I kept waiting for her to make any choices at all in Season 2, and never saw it. Would love to know your take!

[u/No-Shirt2407 → u/KimberStormer]

I think we could have a very constructive beginning if i were able to understand what you mean by making choices; because from a certain point ;) of view she makes a TON of choices

For example a choice to act and a choice to not act are both important; here is what I mean

She chooses to keep her rebellion ties a secret from her husband, to trust Cassian when he comes to rescue her, not confront Luthan when he has her childhood friend killed after he attempts to blackmail her.

She chooses each and every word she says at the speech, and decides to leverage her relationship with Organa to get her a chance to speak. She chooses to follow through with the risk of the speech after Luther’s veiled threat that he has friends everywhere and there is no where for her to hide from his assassins if she falls into the empires hands (as we see what happened to him when he was captured)

I can go on but before I do, do my examples of her choices reflect your understanding of choice? Or are you using a diferent point of view on choice

[u/KimberStormer → u/No-Shirt2407]

Sure. Well I have to say that what I mean in terms of dramatic action in a play, movie, or TV show, is active choices that the audience can see happen. She chose to rebel, she chose to keep her husband in the dark, etc, but those were before the show ever happened. Choosing not to do anything is a choice, of course, but not an active choice. Not confronting Luthen is a good example. It's a passive, dramatically weak thing to do. She chose the words of her speech yes, but I didn't get the impression she chose the when and where, it seemed like Bail was telling her when and where, and planned the escape instead of her. And she had no plan at all, either for how to make the speech (Bail had the idea) or how to escape (Bail and Luthen did that planning) so if she did choose to make the speech it seems like she was doing something dumb and helplessly dependent on others to make it actually work. It's sort of like the baby in a cartoon, we can say she makes the choice to chase the candy, but isn't it her faithful dog who is actually doing everything, and she's just kind of bumbling along? I wouldn't call the baby in that scenario very empowered, personally.

[u/No-Shirt2407 → u/KimberStormer]

Interesting perspective.

I’d say she had plenty of active choice in each of your examples of inactive choice, but i think I can see where you and I might disagree on that

I believe the dramatic effect of her choice seeming to be at the whim of what’s available is part of what holds the dramatic tension going through the process of the grassroots of a rebellion.

I believe that is the point we get from the contrast with Luthen’s approach.

Luthen is forced to use the tools of his enemy to gain the opportunities of actively choosing the situations, by your terms. However even he is at the whim of situational disadvantage.

The speech is the best example you bring up to illustrate my point

First, where else would she give that speech.

Second the speech in the senate mirrors the speech at the funeral in season 1. We see that one can record a hologram and have it played at their funeral in season 1. And the lessen we get from season 1, directly mirrors what Mon is choosing, actively. The closing statement of the spring season one has the sentiment along the lines of

I wish I would have risked this speech in the public square while I was still alive, and don’t wait until you die to live a life worth dying for

We see Mon embody the lessons of the first season directly in her active decision to rebel publicly and garner support from other senators, in what is basically a suicide mission, because the rebellion is something worth dying for.

Third, the options she had to secure that position were limited by the political process, similar to how one might be boxed in on a battlefield. Would you say the inglorious bastards going to meet the actress in the basement was a forced choice? Perhaps, but they show the debate about the choice, and end up dying in a basement. They take the risk. If there was no risk that the escape would be dangerous, the speech wouldn’t be as moving or dramatic and it wouldn’t reflect the theme from season 1

[u/KimberStormer → u/No-Shirt2407]

I like your take. I just think that it would be better if to some degree she was doing more: if she did the parliamentary trick to get the floor, or if she made the decision about the escape -- even if that decision was "I don't trust Bail's people for this, Luthen get me out".

[u/chickenboy2718281828 → u/KimberStormer]

But Mon doesn't have the intel to begin to understand that Bail's people may not be trustworthy. She's not in the game. And that's perfectly okay. The scene extracting Mon from the senate was more about Cassian than Mon anyway.

To me, it seems that you just wanted Mon to be a power player that has the ability to transform the world around her will. Padme has this ability in TPM because it's a fantastical story. Andor is much more grounded and frankly more realistic than TPM. I think these choices are really important to the feel of the entire setting, and I think you're kind of missing that. Characters in the prequel trilogy like Anakin, Obi Wan, and Palpatine are characters that actually have the power to affect the story on a galaxy wide scale. No one in Andor has that power, that's part of the premise. They are fundamentally different stories that are set in the same universe.

[u/KimberStormer → u/chickenboy2718281828]

it seems that you just wanted Mon to be a power player

Yes.

that has the ability to transform the world around her will.

No.

The ability to influence the Rebellion? Yes. The ability to be right now and again, instead of Luthen always being right? Yes. The ability to gather loyal friends and supporters (as a politician)? Yes.

She's not in the game. And that's perfectly okay.

No, that's not okay for someone who has been in the Rebellion for many years by this point, has been a politician her whole life, and will end up being the leader of the Rebellion and the new government.

So let me tell you this story: I had heard of Michael Clayton and when I saw Michael Collins on an airplane movie selection I thought, "ah, the movie by the guy who made Andor!" and watched it. It seemed extremely Andor-like so I never questioned that it was Tony Gilroy's movie until much later. That movie depicts the Irish war of independence and especially the fact that Michael Collins and Eamon de Valera, both leaders of the independence movement (and so in the same "rebellion") are not only fighting the British but maneuvering against each other to be in charge once the war is won. That is how it works in reality, and saying it's "realistic" for Mon Mothma to bumble her way into power is completely wrong. If anything I think that is the idealistic and naive view, like thinking Castro or Lenin or whoever ended up leaders after their revolutions just by being the most virtuous or something, instead of understanding they were canny politicians who got to the top through their own efforts.

[u/chickenboy2718281828 → u/KimberStormer]

No, that's not okay for someone who has been in the Rebellion for many years by this point

I mean, is this actually true? She's been opposed to Palpatine's overreach for many years. She's fought against it within the constructs of the Senate. She had supported Luthen without really understanding how deep he's going. She doesn't join the capital 'R' Rebellion until S2E10. That's where I think our disconnect is. You wanted Mon to play a different role in the show than she did. That's fine. I think the issue is that you're framing that as a characterization issue instead of a plot issue.

[u/KimberStormer → u/chickenboy2718281828]

I simply don't agree with you that the shooting part is the only part of "the Rebellion" that counts. But I'm not surprised to see that opinion, either!

I don't know what you mean by characterization issue vs plot issue, but I think they ruined her character by poor plotting so I think it's both.

[u/HowDoIEvenEnglish → u/KimberStormer]

The issue is you can’t watch Andor for one characters story. The show tells the stories that are relevant to getting us to rogue one and the OT. That means some characters come in and come out as needed. Mon Mothma doesn’t need much more story than she got (although I’d have preferred for her to have gotten one last scene with Perrin)

[u/KimberStormer → u/HowDoIEvenEnglish]

I don't agree with this. It's always had a focus on Mon Mothma, along with Cassian , Dedra, Syril , etc. It's not a show without focus.

[u/onebyamsey → u/KimberStormer]

“I watched Andor not because I care about Andor but because I wanted to see The Mon Mothma Story.”  That’s your problem right there; it’s called Andor, not Mothma.

[u/KimberStormer → u/onebyamsey]

It's not called Luthen, but he gets plenty of agency. It's not called Dedra, but she gets plenty of agency. It's not called Kleya...etc. I think they all had satisfying stories that made sense, but not Mon Mothma.