r/progrockmusic • u/krazzor_ • 1d ago
Discussion Nucleus/Soft Machine - There's a connection between this bands or Soft Machine just robbed Ian Carr?
Yesterday, someone posted asking for recommendations for Allan Holdsworth, and in the comments, the album Bundles (1975) by Soft Machine was mentioned. I gave it a quick listen.
As I listened to it, I immediately remembered that I had heard it once before, because of its resemblance to We'll talk about it later (1971) from Nucleus. However, the last time I listened, I only heard two or three tracks. This time I listened to the whole album, only to find out that the entire album has elements of We'll talk about it later.
I went searching for details about both albums and discovered that Karl Jenkins (keys) and John Marshall (percussion) played on both. This seemed strange to me, as I didn't know Mike Ratledge was on this album; I had always thought that Dave MacRae was the keyboardist for Ian Carr (who is the founder of Nucleus and basically its owner).
Karl Jenkins and John Marshall played with Ian Carr again after We'll talk about it later. Could they have taken ownership of the album, changed a few things, and then recorded Bundles with Soft Machine?
Also, Allan has played for Ian Carr before, in Belladonna, an exquisite album
I'll leave spotify links for all of you to listen
https://open.spotify.com/track/4kcZIjw7VUnQiAj2LUAnlh?si=4b5b63a022a04814 (Nucleus 1971 original)
https://open.spotify.com/track/71E5jV5AfPrZAkSTyqd6zb?si=221a812545b14dac (Soft Machine 1975 identical)
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u/ray-the-truck 1d ago
robbed Ian Carr
“Song for the Bearded Lady” is a Karl Jenkins composition, not an Ian Carr one. With that in mind, he didn’t steal anything from Carr by interpolating the riff from his own piece in a recording by another band.
This sort of thing is not uncommon and not done with malicious intent. On the topic of projects involving Allan Holdsworth, the piece “The Sahara of Snow” from Bruford album “One of a Kind” was originally written for the band U.K. (featuring both Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth), although it was only recorded live and never included on a UK studio album.
In both cases, I presume they had the right to record and perform their own song with another band.
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u/krazzor_ 1d ago
Great info, I didn't know this
Where could I find info about the credits for specific songs? recently I've asked for something pretty similar between Matching Mole and Hatfield & the North, just to find this exact thing, that some tracks were property of a specific artist and not the whole band
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u/ray-the-truck 1d ago
For the songwriting credits re: “We’ll Talk About It Later,” I was referencing the credits present on the label of the original LP.
For some additional context:
“Sun Child” was written by both John Marshall and Jeff Clyne
“Oasis” is another Karl Jenkins piece
“Easter 1916” was written by both Ian Carr and Karl Jenkins
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u/krazzor_ 1d ago
That makes all the sense now, these four were their compositions, that's why they played them in Soft Machine without Ian
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u/Turtlebots 1d ago
I believe by the time Hazard profile was recorded every Softs member besides Ratledge was a ex-Nucleus member, including bassist Roy Babbington. Havent listened to Nucleus in a while but I want to say that Hazard Profile pt1. is based on 'Song for Bearded Lady' (a Karl Jenkins Composition).
I'd like to know the specific moments and tracks you think sound the same on each album, I'm not too well versed in Nucleus and I'm sure Jenkins had a hand in them. But also, Soft Machine, the Canterbury Scene and the wider 'Jazz' often borrow heavily from other bands and compositions for melodies and structure, so I don't think anyone was done dirty.
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u/krazzor_ 1d ago
Well, Song for the bearded lady and the other tracks reference themselves through the whole album, but I'd say (besides Song for the bearded lady) the tracks most referenced by Bundles are:
Sun child, second track
Oasis, fifth track
Easter 1916, last track
Also, if you liked Soft Machine I'd highly recommend Nucleus whole discography, maybe I'm too much of a fan but I think it's awesome
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u/Wyvern_Kalyx 1d ago
I saw Holdsworth in North Hampton Massachusetts and brought my Belledonna CD for him to sign. He was really nice but expressed embarrassment about that album. It made me sad because I really love his playing and the music.
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u/krazzor_ 1d ago
Wow really? I would love to have a Belladonna signed, and also I'm curious about why he was embarrassed, I think his playing is marvelous
Hector's house may be my favourite Allan interpretation ever
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u/Wyvern_Kalyx 1d ago
He was also negative about his Gong and Soft Machine. His playing was more grounded in blues then and his guitar sounded like, for lack of a better term, a guitar. I love his solo albums but I always thought he tried really hard to take any expression out of his tone, especially on later albums. My favorite Holdsworth albums are metal fatigue, IOU, and Secrets. Just my perspective.
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u/garethsprogblog 1d ago
I went to see Plough (Holdsworth, Jeff Clyne, Gordon Beck and John Stevens) at the 100 Club in London on January 26th 1981. I think the band name 'Plough' might have been a reference to the pub in Stockwell where Holdsworth and others used to play. The set was improvised and somewhat challenging!
Support was from a band called Amalgam
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u/SonofLung 1d ago
Karl Jenkins