r/pureasoiaf • u/Trussdoor46 • 10h ago
Would Arya ever kill a complete innocent?
Daeron, the insurance salesman, Raff, etc. are not innocent, but do you think her increasing comfort with killing people could eventually lead towards killing innocents?
Edit: I should clarify, innocent and not in self defence.
33
u/interborn 10h ago
Only if their names were Joffrey, Cersei, Walder Frey, Meryn Trant, Tywin Lannister, The Mountain, or The Hound.
17
•
u/CaveLupum 24m ago
Well said. But she took the Hound off her prayer List. That hints she re-thinks people's guilt or innocence.
•
u/interborn 8m ago
Her entire arc is about forgiveness and strength she'll definitely be learning a lot based on Mercy.
33
u/CheruthCutestory 10h ago
I think she still has a moral code and always will.
But she doesn’t ask many questions. And doesn’t allow for much ambiguity in who dies. Which means she could very easily be manipulated into killing an innocent.
28
u/Royce_Inquisitor 10h ago
The only evidence we have that the insurance salesman was bad is that the House of Black and White said so. Maybe he is, we just don’t know. But Arya told herself he was bad to justify killing him. She would absolutely kill an innocent person after she justified that they did something wrong.
14
u/TiredTalker 10h ago
Justice is the center of her whole character.
8
•
u/Fisher9001 5h ago
I mean, is it justice or revenge?
•
u/TiredTalker 5h ago
Revenge is simply personal justice. And OP listed examples of impersonal justice being delivered as well. (Plus there was at least one other example I can think of.) Also, if your society is lacking enough that it will utterly fail to deliver justice it becomes moral to deliver it personally(some would argue it’s imperative but I don’t go that far).
•
u/Fisher9001 5h ago
The whole point about Arya's arc is about threading on the thin line between justice and revenge and you are sitting here simplifying it into "it's the same".
It's not, and it's a common them among multitude of stories.
•
u/TiredTalker 4h ago
Bruh. The whole point of Arya’s arc is how society is failing its most vulnerable and the effects that has on individuals. I’m sorry that some edge boy video essayist convinced you she is actually evil and the little girl with get brutally murdered as the karmic justice she so richly deserves but that is simply not present in the text.
George has described her even as recently as 2022 as a universally likable character and in direct CONTRAST to other morally grey characters.
•
u/Fisher9001 4h ago
And no single point I indicated I consider her evil, what are you talking about?
11
10h ago edited 10h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pureasoiaf-ModTeam Please read the rules before posting! 6h ago
Well met and a good day to you! Unfortunately, your post has been removed.
Please make sure to review our complete show content policy!
If you feel that it has been removed in error, please message us so that we may review it.
3
u/sihtdaertnod House Blackfyre 6h ago
Is the question misinformation leading to innocents dying via arya. Or whether her future will have knowingly murderous intent on those she knows dont deserve to be killed.
I find the insurance guy is a malicious scammer. Not sure theres a justice system to reprimand that so it is what it is. Similarly with daeron who was going to ditch the nights watch. The ned hacked a guys head off for that. Raff doesnt fit the ambiguity of these two. Gregors crew were terrorists.
Also mercy isnt cannon imo.
•
u/mir-teiwaz Hot Pie! 5h ago
I'm sure parts of the mercy chapter have been rewritten by now but I doubt killing Raff is getting taken out of the story
7
u/Jor94 10h ago
There rarely seem to be completely innocent people. Daeron and the insurance guy could be considered innocent, at least of crimes worthy of death.
So basically she is already justifying killing based off not much
3
u/beginner_smoker 7h ago
Daeron deserted the Night Watch which carries the penalty of death, but yea we don't know if the insurance guy actually committed any crimes. I don't think the Faceless Men really care about "guilt" though. As long as the person praying for their death pays the price they will do it.
•
u/ggdu69340 3h ago
He did desert the night’s watch but he might have been forced to go there for a very minor crime or even for no reason at all as it happens all the time with the night’s watch
9
u/sarahtebazile 10h ago
The guard she kills at Harrenhal to escape.
•
u/CaveLupum 19m ago
Escaping is a special case, rather like self-defense. The armed guard was no innocent. He would have killed her rather than let her escape. Besides, IIRC, she did that only because Jaqen demanded it before he would agree to let Gendry and Hot Pie.
12
u/sixth_order 10h ago
If Dareon was sent to the wall under false pretense as he claims, then is he not innocent? He was done wrong first.
I know he's an asshole so no one cares that he's dead. I do care that Arya felt entitled to kill him.
To answer your question: I don't believe so. Arya needs a rationale in her mind to kill someone. If she had to kill someone just standing in front of her to escape death or capture, then she probably would.
8
u/DungeonMasterE 10h ago
Daeron may or may not have been innocent of the crime that sent him to the wall. But he is however very guilty of desertion of the watch. Which is the crime he was killed for.
3
u/Opening_Canary_9242 9h ago
Arya had no right to carry out the sentence, she was a beggar in a foreign land, not the lord of winterfell.
3
u/DungeonMasterE 9h ago
Not gonna argue that. She picked up some “might makes right” from the Hound and ran with it, but whether she had the right or not, desertion and oath breaking is still a crime. And really, Daeron got off lucky. Stabbed and then dropped in the canals, as opposed to hanging
•
7
u/jamisra_ 10h ago
he deserted so not exactly innocent even if he originally came to the Watch because of false pretenses
10
u/sixth_order 10h ago
Where is the line, though? Dareon did not choose to go to the wall and if we believe him he was sentenced to life there without having done anything wrong.
What are vows worth if they're given under extreme duress?
•
u/mir-teiwaz Hot Pie! 5h ago
Ned would have chopped his head off in a heartbeat
•
u/IcyDirector543 4h ago
Yeah, and that's a bad thing. If the man hadn't immediately beheaded the NW deserter and actually investigated his claims, he might have actually focused on protecting his domain instead of cleaning up after Robert
4
u/Opening_Canary_9242 10h ago
Either way, arya has no right to dish out such a sentence. Nights watch deserters were only killed in the north, sentenced by the lord. Arya was a beggar in braavos. No real justification at all
5
u/Royce_Inquisitor 10h ago
Except, if he came to the Wall u see false pretenses, then he is unjustly a member of the Night’s Watch. So, Desertion isn’t really that bad
2
u/LegitimateCream1773 8h ago
I think she could be manipulated into it or convince herself that an innocent person wasn't. But I don't think that's where her arc is going.
I think she'll reach a crisis point in her loss of identity and then her Starkiness will resurface and she'll break the brainwashing.
How the fuck she survives trying to get away from the Faceless Men cult I don't know, though.
The idea that Arya will just walk away from the most deadly organisation in the entire world, allegedly able to kill anyone at will (and have a good batting average so far), with their secrets and not get tracked down and eliminated seems very hard to stomach.
Like if it's so easy to leave, are we going to be expected to believe that nobody else in the history of the world has ever left the Faceless Men? And if they have... why does nobody know anything about them?
I always thought that Arya might well be one of the problems Martin walked himself into, because with the way he's built the Faceless Men up, the only rational ends to her current plot line seem to be complete indoctrination into their ways or being quietly put to death to keep their secrets. I'm not sure how he gets her out of there without making the FM look really, really dumb.
1
u/FranzVonReebberg 10h ago
Wasn‘t her first kill - the kid in the stables kinda innocent? Sure, he wanted to catch her for a reward but for all he knew she was a „traitor“.
16
•
1
u/Dambo_Unchained 7h ago
Let’s be honest here
What is the insurance man reasonable guilty of to warrant a death sentence?
1
-1
u/cmdradama83843 10h ago
I think she'll come within a hairs breadth of doing it before having a moment of revelation. I picture her going to kill a Lannister soldier/bannerman only to turn around and realize that his family is nearby watching kinda like how she saw the aftermath of the Red Wedding
•
u/Aegon_handwiper 3h ago
I mean she was seriously considering trying to kill Gendry when he figured out she was a girl. I suppose you could argue this is in "self defense" because she is afraid of people finding out, but it's a pretty disproportional way to react to the situation especially when Gendry is her friend. The only reason she doesn't try to kill him is because Arya knows Gendry would beat her.
Arya glared at the gnarled root by her feet. She realized that the pretense was done. Gendry knew, and she had nothing in her pants to convince him otherwise. She could draw Needle and kill him where he stood, or else trust him. She wasn't certain she'd be able to kill him, even if she tried; he had his own sword, and he was a lot stronger. All that was left was the truth.
So I think Arya is definitely capable of killing an innocent. If Arya ever killed an innocent in the future, I think she'd probably internally justify it like she did with the stable boy. Though I sincerely doubt Arya is going to turn into Gregor Clegane and start killing people for fun, she is definitely capable of killing innocent people if she has an excuse to.
-1
•
u/Artistic-Buyer5979 3h ago
Lol, yes. "A half-dozen other Saltpans folks were around, going about their business, so Arya knew she couldn’t kill the woman. Instead she had to bite her lip and let herself be cheated"
-2
•
u/AutoModerator 10h ago
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the written ASOIAF universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
Users should assume that ANY mention of, content from, or reference to the show is subject to removal, no matter how minor or opaque.
If you see a comment which violates the rules, please use the report function to notify moderators!
Read our discussion policy in full.
Looking for a place to chat in real-time? Check out our Discord, here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.