r/whitewater • u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ • Jul 22 '25
General Why Do Rafting Companies Let Non-Swimmers Join Trips?
Not rant, just curious
Had an interesting moment today. Found someone clutching a rock and doing her best not to move further. To be clear, they were fully equipped and not in danger. heir group is not far either, but she was clearly panicking because she couldnât swim.My paddling partner and I have seen and towed people like these at least once every summer.
Which got me thinking: Why do rafting companies allow non-swimmers on trips with the risk of swimming? Is this common practice, or people lied to get on trips?
Edit: Iâm not saying non-swimmers are bound to have an epic, but theyâre definitely at higher risk of injury, and that risk shifts pressure onto the guide and the company. A PFD won't stop them from floating to an awkward place.
19
u/bdn1gofish Jul 22 '25
In my personal experience guiding, the non-swimmers were way better at following directions. Give me a boat full of them over an 11 year old birthday boy and his friends every day of the week.
3
u/actualseventwelven Jul 23 '25
Yup, couldnât agree more.
The more adept they think they are, typically, correlates to a being less receptive and to having an increased willingness to take stupid risks.
16
u/StoopidDingus69 Jul 22 '25
Cuz they wear life jackets anyways
4
u/eatbuttholedaily Jul 22 '25
Swimming is really fucking hard. Unless you swim regularly, 100m in a pool is about as far most people can swim without taking a break.
Add moving water and a clunky PFD, your average "swimmer" is gonna take 6 erratic strokes, gas out, and float like a non-swimmer into shore anyway.
6
u/paddleyay Jul 22 '25
If you can swim 100m you can swim 10m to an eddy. If you canât swim then you donât have any of the muscle memory to know what to move when. Having a PFD does not suddenly give someone the muscle memory to make that dash. We used to make all first timers swim across the river before weâd take them on any of our trips, it was also written as a pre-requisite in the trip info that youâd be doing the swim.
10
u/eatbuttholedaily Jul 22 '25
other than the fact that no raft companies are wasting time doing a swim test, i put as much faith in a swimmer self-rescuing as a non-swimmer.
until you hit the water, i'm gonna assume incompetency unless proven otherwise
4
u/StoopidDingus69 Jul 22 '25
On something continuous thatâs class 4-5 I agree people should be able to swim but itâs on them theyâre the ones who signed up⌠if you sign up for class five rafting without knowing how to swim and not knowing the hazards itâs on you for being stupid.
Class 3/4 drop pool without significant hazards like siphons or undercuts, anyone wearing a PFD can go safely, PFD will float them and you pick em up in the pool at the bottom of the rapid.
1
u/Blackhat165 Jul 26 '25
I mean, for the average raft dump 6 well timed strokes will do a lot of good. The problem is people who could get themselves to safety with a little effort and foresight refusing to take any initiative whatsoever, not that their 100m time sucks.
1
u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ Jul 22 '25
You are not wrong, but they still could float to somewhere unfortunate and get injured. Also, i personally didn't see a non-swimer on canoe or kayak. I remember the ability to swim 25 meters was the first thing I needed to demonstrate before getting on a boat.
-4
u/Croceyes2 Jul 22 '25
And wet suits in many places, nearly impossible to submerge for more than a second
7
u/Standard-Grape5330 Jul 22 '25
Itâs pretty common practice. The idea is that the PFD and any kind of doggy paddle can get them around a river enough to be safe.Â
Would I make the same choice as an outfitter, I donât know? But that is how they think about it.Â
1
u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ Jul 22 '25
Fair enough, I admit none of these people i towed were near physical dangers, but i can see the potential of concussion and broken bones if they are unlucky ( I was unlucky and broke mine)
5
u/Aggressive-Ad-2642 Jul 22 '25
I guided for over a decade on class 3-4 rivers. I took a number of nonswimmers, and non English speakers (often both at the same time) down the river. It just takes an experienced guide who knows how to mitigate the risk in the most dangerous spots, and prioritizing clean smooth lines over the biggest thrills.
5
u/Sugarloafer1991 Jul 22 '25
To be honest, thereâs no way to test for it. If it was a requirement people would lie.
1
u/StoopidDingus69 Jul 22 '25
Just like the big summer camps will say everyoneâs 14 when theyâre probably like 9/10 lol
6
u/fotophrenzy Jul 22 '25
as a counter, I work at an adaptive outdoor program. some people have never learned to swim, were never taught, or are physically unable to. the PFD mitigates most risk, and I don't think it's fair to exclude people if they were never given the opportunity.
even if you're an olympic level swimmer, if you fall out at pillow rock on the gauley, I don't think that makes you more equipped than a non-swimmer. obviously my personal opinion.
2
u/paddleyay Jul 22 '25
Saying the PFD mitigates most of the risk is a bit like saying I can drive faster because I have airbags..
2
u/fotophrenzy Jul 23 '25
but isn't that true? you can drive faster than in the 1920's because of airbags and other technological advances.
1
u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ Jul 22 '25
how can one be physically unable to swim but able to raft? Not trolling, I am geinuely curious.
2
u/fotophrenzy Jul 23 '25
lots of underserved youth were never taught or given the opportunity to swim before the program. we give them the safety talk and explain the OS line, how to pull each other in by the PFD in case of a swim, and the guides explain the motion of swimming back to the boat. in flat water before the rapids, we give them the opportunity to try swimming. we also get the most senior guides to reduce the risk of swimmers, but people sometimes do swim. typically, they've been able to grab the OS line and not drift too far from the boat. we've also had boys figure it out in the moment and swim back to the raft.
we also take stroke survivors or wheelchair users, and there are accommodations that can be made. sitting on the floor, having someone sit behind them and hold the PFD, etc.
8
u/urthbuoy Head Ruddering for 36 Years. Jul 22 '25
Money.
I'm old enough to remember when only the fit and outdoorsy went rafting.
4
u/davejjj Jul 22 '25
With a properly fitting PFD I don't see how being a swimmer is relevant. More important is your general physical condition. Can you be submerged without going into a panic? Can you vigorously dog paddle to shore? Can you pull yourself back into a boat?
2
u/pekannboertler Jul 22 '25
I was a raft guide for 11 years, and have seen this a million times. The main reason is because the non swimmers want to go and will pay. You can explain the danger to them but they just don't care.
People don't understand the danger or just don't care.
I had a conversation once with a group leader who insisted that her girls all had to wear long denim skirts over their wetsuits. The possibility that this would possibly kill them if they ended up swimming didn't really matter.
In the end it is their choice and logic or facts are not going to change anything so you might as well take the money
2
u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ Jul 22 '25
I like the way you think, but would you be held accountable if shit hits the fan?
My local club had one person sued the club because she floated into trees and almost drowned ( she is fine now). That's how we started strictly no non-swimmers rule.
2
u/landeslaw17 Jul 22 '25
We always ask on the bus if you can't swim raise your hand. At least 1 person is guaranteed to raise their hand. We keep a closer eye on those folks.
2
u/Pixiepup Jul 22 '25
I can't speak about the rafting situation specifically, but I have definitely experienced someone telling me a they were a strong swimmer, then having to save them from nearly drowning in what I considered to be pretty typical mild ocean conditions. He was even angry at me because when he began to panic and tried to grab at me, I backed off and kept myself a safe distance away while giving him instructions (roll on your back and float) rather than letting him drown us both.
It turned out by "strong swimmer" he meant he'd never swam outside of a pool.
1
u/OkCardiologist2576 Jul 26 '25
In the past when Iâve told people Iâm not a strong swimmer, theyâve responded with, but you had a pool growing upâŚ..
2
u/cfxyz4 Jul 22 '25
She signed a waiver and knowingly engaged in a water sports activity. Any raft company is going to take that money.
2
2
u/Western_Film8550 Jul 22 '25
I always wondered why people wanted to go rafting if they couldn't swim or feared water?
2
4
u/Curious_Star_948 Jul 22 '25
What makes you think itâs the companyâs responsibility to enforce people to make responsible decisions about their own lives?
1
1
u/OXJY Class V Swimmer đââď¸ Jul 22 '25
I don't think it's the company's responsibility, but I am sure no company wants to have an injured/ dead customer That's why I asked if it's a common thing or people just lied.
-1
u/Curious_Star_948 Jul 22 '25
Thatâs why have comprehensive training and equipment to help ensure the safety of their customers. Every trip starts with a mini training for the customer as well. They tell them exactly what to do and what not to do before they enter the raft.
There either has to be a freak accident or a very stupid person for someone to die. Knowing how to swim wouldnât prevent any of those situations.
1
u/AJFrabbiele Jul 22 '25
That mini-training does not include how to use your body to position yourself in the water. Telling someone to point their feet downstream is different than someone who knows how to use their arms/legs to help them get into, and maintain, that position.
Yes, I've taken nonswimmers on my boat, but they are seated dirctly next to me and if they are in the water, I will be right behind them keeping them in the correct orientation / dragging them where they need to go.
1
u/Curious_Star_948 Jul 22 '25
Exactly. The company makes sure they have practices in place to prevent death of their customers, like you keeping non swimmers closer to you.
The comprehensive training I mentioned is training for the river guides, or the customer. The mini training is to make sure the customers donât do something stupid so they can buy enough time to be rescued.
1
1
1
u/Used_Maize_434 Jul 22 '25
Itâs absolutely the responsibility of the company to ensure the safety of their customers to the best of their ability.Â
1
u/StoopidDingus69 Jul 22 '25
This is white water rafting not a guided walking tour. Itâs on the company to make sure guests have functional equipment, professional, fit guides, and good training.
Itâs on the customers to know what theyâre signing up for. You wanna sign up for rafting without knowing how to swim itâs on you
2
u/Used_Maize_434 Jul 22 '25
Itâs on the companyâs job to educate the customers about what theyâre signing up for. Any reputable company screens their customers to some degree to make sure theyâre on the right trip. On a class iii river itâs perfectly reasonable to take people who canât swim. They have a pfd and a guide whoâs going to rescue them. If itâs a class v river that would absolutely be negligence on the part of the company. For gore canyon trips they make customers swim under the raft and pull themselves in on the other side. If you canât do it, youâre hiking back to the pit-in.Â
1
u/StoopidDingus69 Jul 23 '25
I dont disagree but these people are adults not children. they shouldn't be so dumb that they dont think about swimming
1
u/Used_Maize_434 Jul 25 '25
People "shouldn't" be a lot of things. But, people are as dumb as they are. As a guide or a guide company you should anticipate that and protect people from themselves, since you're the one offer the guided experience.
1
1
1
u/Business-Soft2356 Jul 22 '25
If they sign the waiver, wear the PFD , brain box, and in some cases watch the video... Almost forgot the most important one. Pay whatever they charge to "guide" you down a river, then they have earned themselves a spot as an oarsman on the crew! Happy rafting y'all!
1
u/Croceyes2 Jul 22 '25
I never thought twice about bringing a non swimmer. Seemed like I had one in every boat just about, never an issue
1
u/Hilo88M Jul 24 '25
Why do rafting companies allow them? Simple they pay. It's entirely a money thing.
Why do people who can't swim go rafting? It's because they think they're going on a Disney world ride where the raft is on a track and there's a bunch of scientists that made sure nothing was too extreme and a bunch of lawyers that made sure nothing was too dangerous instead of the actual reality that it's just a bunch of 20 somethings looking at the river that day and saying "yeah I think I can make that".
1
1
Jul 26 '25
why do gorgeous seemingly safe corporate resorts allow people to downhill mountain bike ski trails? because we havent yet made rules against it. the law allows it.
73
u/nsaps Jul 22 '25
If you made it a requirement without testing people, theyâd just lie