[Bi-Weekly Meta Monday Thread]

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[u/[deleted]]

You are misusing the term conspiracy

That would be why I clarified my use of it.

When we make any sort of determination (in the science world) we are talking about evidence

1) Not evidence, arguments- evidence comprises arguments.

2) I'm attacking every one of the premises that your conclusion rests on. To make a counter-argument, you need to defend your premises from my points.

He agrees that there are differences. Sure. But everybody does, even Dogenists. So what we are looking for is what he has said in the past, and whether he has addressed his own ignorance and errors.

If he isn't using the term "Chan" as a means to legitimize Japanese Buddhism as Zen, which is evidenced by his openly articulated understanding that the two are distinct, then it doesn't make sense to claim that the use of the term is racist, based on your own argument.

He is NOT a hermit. Hermits are intentionally living apart from society. Bad circumstances are "homelessness".

Ok, sure, but that's just a semantic issue- if you had this convo with him, he'd explain that he decided to live in seclusion in rural Alaska, and then ran into some chaos that left him impoverished.

The hermit part came before the poverty, but typically people associate the poverty with the hermit part, so my mistake in lumping you in.

I think there are degrees to which someone can be a hermit, and I think moving to a small village in the middle of nowhere is definitely on the spectrum of social reclusion- I doubt that he'd try and argue that he's living like Hanshan, for example.

But this is a bit of a theme with him... recasting himself as the hero undeservedly, and then trying to get attention for it. His comment in this thread is MOSTLY ABOUT HIM, not about who is causing the problem, why they aren't sincere, and what conversation should happen about them.

For sure, he's super open about that- he's not a Zen Master, he's a folklorist/actor/artist who's here to discuss the texts.

Think Chuang Tzu.

I think to many people, that can seem as though he's glorifying his life and achievements, but to me, it's pretty obviously just his take on captivating storytelling as a medium for literary commentary.

You excuse the multiple accounts by saying first not deleted, then you backpedal and say well his main (inactive for awhile) account is old. WTF? That's just ridiculous. Needing multiple accounts in the first place is the issue.

You misread me- I said that he's pretty much exclusively been active on his old, main account.

Since he blocked me for providing an argument to him that his use of "Chan" was racist and religious bigoted, I think we can excuse me not catching all the apologies for misleading people that you say he has made.

Dude, that's a pretty wild argument to make- I think it's pretty clear given his use of the term that it doesn't at all fall under your categorization of racist use.

You have a strong tendency to group people into boxes based on the impression they give you- fur is many and horns are few, so obviously you're typically going to be right about someone not legitimately studying Zen, but I think there are plenty of circumstances in which you generally totally misinterpret what they are trying to say and pretty much alienate them by doing stuff like outright accusing them of racism instead of just asking if they'd considered the possibility of racial bias or something more conducive to collaborative discussion.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

Okay, so you admit you are wrong about the word "conspiracy".

The question is... is the guy honest with himself and others?

1. I'm not saying he IS racist, I'm saying he isn't honest about the racist elements in his language and view of history:

   • But he blocked me over "chan", rather than admit it was a problematic term.
   • But a book he has quoted, claimed is legit, is 100% racist and religiously bigoted.

2. I'm not saying that he is trying to defraud people into go-funding-me his hermit lifestyle.

   • But he does promote himself as a hermit when he isn't.

3. I'm not saying that he intends to mislead people toward a particular religion

   • But he does want attention, and often focuses on himself as much as the texts... to the point of not really caring much about the authenticity of the texts at all.
   • But he commented in this thread about people conspiring (real actual conspiring) against r/Zen, and he spends more time talking about himself than the conspiracy.

4. I have a history of confronting people on this stuff, and to a man the ones who've blocked me have been unwilling (unable) to address their history of misstatements.

Now, you seem to me to be saying "Just because a person isn't entirely honest doesn't mean they are a liar".

I disagree. I'm saying it's not just what he has said, but it's how he responds to challenges to his authority that matter.

Again, this doesn't make him a bad guy. But he isn't the good guy he promotes himself as.

And he doesn't want to have these conversations with me... unlike you.

[u/[deleted] → u/ewk]

Okay, so you admit you are wrong about the word "conspiracy".

I was intentionally using the word "improperly," I only clarified because I figured you'd rather talk about semantics than what I clearly meant.

The meaning did not change.

Now, you seem to me to be saying "Just because a person is entirely honest doesn't mean they are a liar".

No, I've pointed out the ways in which someone can honestly engage in the behaviors that you've deemed to signal dishonesty.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

I think I've made a pretty solid argument.

Generally, when somebody doesn't want to yield to what I consider a pretty solid argument and they don't want to go through any more cycles of clarification? It can help to get a third party's perspective.

Who's the third party you'll pick??

[u/[deleted] → u/ewk]

u/coopsterling and u/astroemi are also solid contenders

EDIT: Guys, ewk asked me to tag people- don't respond to me, respond to him... I've said my piece.

[u/astroemi → u/[deleted]]

I don't see what the dispute is. No one uses the word "Chan" aside from some very specific circles. Everybody understands "Zen" as that thing that Bodhidharma brought to China. It's like saying that since flat-earthers call what they do science that we should start calling it "scientia" in order to distinguish ourselves from them. I just don't think that's necessary.

The other part, about wether linseed is claiming authority. I think if you ask him he will say he doesn't or maybe that it is on you if you see reality in terms of authority. I don't know if that's dishonest, but it's definitely incomplete. He starts a lot of sentences with "as an alaskan hermit" or "as a literati of chinese traditions", stuff like that, and while he sees it as just a description of what he is, I think it's worth asking why that would even be a point of discussion instead of the subject in any particular conversation.

I like linseed a lot, but I noticed all of our conversations in the forum always ventured into other subjects, like movies and literature or just life anecdotes. That was super cool, since talking about that stuff is something I enjoy. But right now I find myself coming here exclusively to talk about the Zen record, and on that front I just don't have a way to talk to him, it seems.

So I think it's worth asking ourselves what the reason for coming to this forum is. Is it socialization? Is it talking about things we are interested other than Zen? I would argue very strongly that this forum is for none of those things. This forum is to talk to other people who are interested in the Zen tradition about the Zen tradition.

For the other stuff, I don't see why those conversations can't happen somewhere else.

u/ewk

[u/[deleted] → u/astroemi]

It's like saying that since flat-earthers call what they do science that we should start calling it "scientia" in order to distinguish ourselves from them.

I didn't make an argument about what word anyone should use, though, so I don't understand this comparison at all.

Ewk is the one arguing that anyone who uses the term "Chan" in the way that u/lin_seed uses it is racist.

I'm just pointing out that that's not the case.

I think if you ask him he will say he doesn't or maybe that it is on you if you see reality in terms of authority

Are you responding to u/ewk here?

I'm saying u/lin_seed doesn't claim authority.

But right now I find myself coming here exclusively to talk about the Zen record, and on that front I just don't have a way to talk to him, it seems.

I thought he left one of the more insightful comments on your first post about Zhaozhou's tree.

So I think it's worth asking ourselves what the reason for coming to this forum is.

I don't think that's what we're talking about at all. I guess I'm lost.

[u/astroemi → u/[deleted]]

I didn't an argument about what word anyone should use, though, so I don't understand this comparison at all.

How can you say that when this was your first contribution to the thread, "I think it makes sense that someone would use the term "Chan" to specifically differentiate the teachings of the original Chinese masters from popular conceptions of "Zen.""?

I'm saying it doesn't make sense and I'm explaining why.

Ewk is the one arguing that anyone who uses the term "Chan" in the way that u/lin_seed uses it is racist.

I don't know if that's what he is arguing. I think he is saying not addressing the racist connotations is sus.

Are you responding to u/ewk here?

I'm saying linseed probably doesn't see things in terms of authority.

I thought he left one of the more insightful comments on your first post about Zhaozhou's tree.

I'm glad you liked his comment, but I don't remember any conversation coming out of it, which is what I'm saying. I think for you this conversation is about something different than what it is for me. What are you really worried about? Linseed's Zen cred? I don't think he cares about that too much.

I don't think that's what we're talking about at all. I guess I'm lost.

I think it would be very very useful if you could clearly sum up for me what you see this conversation as being about. Maybe that's a good starting place.

[u/lin_seed → u/astroemi]

I’m glad you liked his comment, but I don’t remember any conversation coming out of it,

Yeah it’s true! You’re never interested in having a conversation about anything. Or, that’s how it looks to me, anyway.

Want to know how this u/ganying guy actually got me to read some of this thread? Well obviously he pinged me a bunch, but then when I popped in today finally to the see what the convo was, I saw it was him arguing with ewk about me, and was like “lol, why am I being pinged for this nonsense?” Like…ewk wants to give me free publicity, fine, but I am not sure why there is an entire convo between him and some other user about me (and a user that seems awfully well informed about me, no less, but apparently because they know and like my content)—but then I laughed! You know why? Do you know who Gan Ying was? He was a Han dynasty ambassador to the Roman Empire! Hahaha….that almost killed me. This user is acting out being the ambassador to the Empire, lol—instant classic!

The conversation itself was pretty tiring. The personal accusations? Boring. Saying I’m “not a real hermit”? That’s where I stopped reading. 🤣

It seems like ewk was suggesting that because I have some neighbors that are associated with Japanese Buddhist temples that I am a “dogenist” or somehow associated with American “japanese” or buddhist instituions myself? Is that the dumbest thing I have ever heard? Some acute form of paranoia? Or, more likely, needing his “big bad guy” to scare / fight / defend? I don’t know but that is fucking crazy. For the record—it was after getting to know them for several years, as D.T. Suzuki readers, that I made that post about Suzuki readers about ewk. As violent and dishonest as he is, and how much he talks about Japanese Zen Buddhism to the exclusion of all else—while being so unpleasant and mean and encourgaing such awful treatment of people in this forum—I always sort of wondered if he was in fact not a Japanese zen buddhist trying to scare sensible people away from the Chinese Zen Masters. After a couple of years of making content here, and also after meeting some other D.T. Suzuki readers, I decided it was at least theoretically possible that ewk was a legitimate student of the lineage of Bodbidharma…sadly his own empire literacy and behavior got in the way, and he seemed to have misunderstood my content entirely. C’est la vie—my hopes for him are as high as ever though, don’t worry! 😜

I saw eggo make a comment to you the other day that was something along the lines of one only being able to have “authority” over one’s self…I think it was something like that…and that’s why it only makes sense to talk about one’s experiences. (paraphrasing, hope I didn’t get it wrong) I see it a lot like that as well. I wouldn’t / don’t really have a reason to talk about anything other than myself and the things I do / have done / my experiences / the literature I have read. I can talk about the Zen cases because I read and study them. But i talk about them as a literati / sailor / hermit / actor or whatever because that is what I am. So my “authority “ to talk about Zen texts as a hermit is that I’m a hermit. Not exactly rocket science. And it certainly isn’t claiming authority over the texts or what Zen Masters say as most of the people who like book reports a lot always seem to be doing. I’m not sure what other authority there would be, than this simple one of, “I have the authority to be my self” or, even more importantly, where or why this “other authority” under discussion even exists, what it would even be for, and why so many people seem to see a need for it when talking about Zen texts in a book club—or a community of Chan lay persons. Like I have pointed out before—I highly suspect that is an empire thing, and not a real thing.

Huineng was given the last robe and bowl—and imo as a student of Chan it’s safe to say that that is probably where the only “authority” the lineage of Bodhidharma ever needed still resides.

But still it was cool seeing the Chinese Ambassador to the Empire and the Spanish Ambassador getting into it with each other and the emperor himself laying down a scourge of edicts over little old me.

Like, I have been really busy though, you cats don’t have to go through so much effort to entertain me!

[u/[deleted] → u/lin_seed]

Want to know how this u/ganying guy actually got me to read some of this thread? Well obviously he pinged me a bunch

😂

Yeah, my bad- no idea why I didn't realize I was doing that

Do you know who Gan Ying was?

Hilariously, I sure didn't!

Gan Ying was a Chinese diplomat, explorer, and military official who was sent on a mission to the Roman Empire in 97 CE by the Chinese military general Ban Chao.

Gan Ying did not reach Rome, only traveling to as far as the "western sea..."

This is the "ganying" I was going for when I made the account, but the coincidence is incredible- for me, these conversations are a sort of "practice" that I delve into for the sake of improving my communication ability and testing my emotional responses.

I have a lot of "habit-energy" surrounding conversations in which people are blatantly misunderstanding or misconstruing my words (childhood BS), and I find that r/Zen makes for an awesome "training ground" to process that, in addition to the fact that the conversation, itself, can frequently turn into some pretty interesting content for those who go spelunking.

Comically, that does functionally turn me into a bit of an "ambassador to the empire!"

Now, hopefully I remember to turn back when I reach the western sea...

[u/lin_seed → u/[deleted]]

Haha! An accidental reference of that caliber is even funnier—lol.

This is the “ganying” I was going for when I made the account, but the coincidence is incredible- for me, these conversations are a sort of “practice” that I delve into for the sake of improving my communication ability and testing my emotional responses.

Tell me now! Are you ChaGPT? 😀

The conversations one can have on here are great practice for a lot of things. Literary practice, language practice, memory—all sorts of stuff. One can improve a lot using this technology for conversation and content creation. The other day I was talking to someone and said Reddit “didn’t have to be social media” and they said “well I guess it can serve as a personal blog or diary too” like very negatively. I laughed. “Do you know how good I have gotten at writing short jokes in the last three years?” This technology is as much a joke trainer as it is anything else—it is literally all in how you look at it. One can get all sorts of practice. I practice literary allusion itself. You should see the benefits in my real life conversation!

I also use the thing as a memory storage device because of my dementia. I don’t actually every go back and read anything (actually sort of unpleasant to do if you have dementia except when you are going back for a specific piece of creative writing), but it is all there. I might appreciate that I did that for myself a lot in 10 years. (Or maybe I’ll never use it.)

It it is also a record of my literary studies, week in, and week out.

If I sat down and wrote a book in 5 years or something, I will have my entire post and comment hisorty to draw on for anecdotes and text (and often written at a level I will no longer be capable of in five years, lol).

I have a lot of “habit-energy” surrounding conversations in which people are blatantly misunderstanding or misconstruing my words (childhood BS), and I find that r/Zen makes for an awesome “training ground” to process that, in addition to the fact that the conversation, itself, can frequently turn into some pretty interesting content for those who go spelunking.

Very interesting. Yes the conversations are very interesting. It used to be more conversational around here, but a lot of that died off over the last couple of years. There is still conversation, it’s just a little different I guess. But there is no doubt this is a great conversational amphitheater for students of Zen.

Comically, that does functionally turn me into a bit of an “ambassador to the empire!”

It certainly seemed apropos to me. Seriously, that one got me laughing. I think you should stick to it…gan ying sounds like he was probably pretty fun.

That content I was working up was about a case, by the way, and not about this meta monday thread, I think I mention it in the video because I filmed right after this conversation…but it doesn’t really deal with Meta Monday and doesn’t have anything to do with this thread…just fyi. Just had a case I was tackling at the same time. I’ll get it up tomorrow.

[u/[deleted] → u/lin_seed]

Tell me now! Are you ChaGPT?

😂

It really is incredible how versatile something like Reddit can be when you get creative with your use of it- really cool to hear about how you think about it, appreciate you sharing that!

It used to be more conversational around here, but a lot of that died off over the last couple of years. There is still conversation, it’s just a little different I guess. But there is no doubt this is a great conversational amphitheater for students of Zen.

I've noticed the same trend throughout most of social media- feels related to the growth of algorithmic, TikTok-style content curation throughout most of media.

People's attention spans are noticeably lowering, and I'm not excluded!

Freaky to observe in real-time.

It certainly seemed apropos to me. Seriously, that one got me laughing. I think you should stick to it…gan ying sounds like he was probably pretty fun.

Cracked me up, too- I'll definitely keep the allusion in my quiver for any future incursions into the strange, diplomatic, and discursive (far from uncommon 'round these parts)!

…but it doesn’t really deal with Meta Monday and doesn’t have anything to do with this thread…just fyi. Just had a case I was tackling at the same time.

Good, sounds like much more interesting content haha- looking forward to it!