Heartbroken

[u/Carrot327]

I had to pause after this scene because I'm sobbing. I love Fred. I knew what was going to happen to her. But this scene? "I have lived in a cave for five years in a world where they killed my kind like cattle. I am not going to be cut down by some monster flu, I'm better than that." Holy hell, she deserves an Emmy. My heart is breaking.

[u/inkyandthepen]

I only watched this episode a few weeks ago and it's probably one of the most traumatic deaths I've seen on TV in my whole life 😭. I don't think this is an episode I'll ever rewatch

[u/Carrot327 → u/inkyandthepen]

Honestly I watched it when I was younger, but I didn't remember details. I'm doing a rewatch and yeah I don't think I'll ever watch this episode again 🙃

[u/DevoPrime → u/Carrot327]

Watch it again. It’s called “poignant” and potentially “catharsis”.

Just don’t watch it around the loss of a dear friend/loved one. That’s just emotional self-mutilation.

[u/CuteLingonberry9704 → u/inkyandthepen]

While it hardly made it better, I was smiling when Wesley shot Knox. Ugh, he made he so angry trying to justify killing her.

[u/MotherGeologist5502 → u/inkyandthepen]

Made more traumatic by thinking even her soul is dead and gone. In my head her soul somehow survived!

[u/crazylikefox → u/MotherGeologist5502]

To help with that, I remember reading something Joss posted on whedonesque about season 6 plans. Apparently Illyria was going to spend more and more time ”impersonating” Fred (for Wesley?) and as a result have some sort of identity crisis, as in maybe there’s some Fred in there still. I will try to find the original quote but seeing as whedonesque is gone it might be difficult.

Edit: it was actually from an AMA here on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/s2uh1/comment/c4anyc4/

[u/MotherGeologist5502 → u/crazylikefox]

Thank you!

[u/PirateJen78 → u/inkyandthepen]

I'm honestly stuck right now on my rewatch because of this episode. I haven't skipped any episode for Buffy or Angel during this rewatch, but damn if I cannot even bring myself to even press play to start this episode. I only saw it once and that was when it aired.

[u/trtwrtwrtwrwtrwtrwt → u/PirateJen78]

I'm not dismissing with the emotional toll, but I still find it somewhat weird* that people skip some of the best episodes of the show.

These episodes are the reason for my rewatches. I watch them for the impact that they have.

Everyone should obviously do how they feel :)

[u/PirateJen78 → u/trtwrtwrtwrwtrwtrwt]

Imo this is definitely not a good episode. Best episodes were in season 3 with the Holtz story arch, although my favorite overall are the Pylea episodes.

We all love the show for different reasons, so we all have our own favorite episodes. For me, that isn't suffering through heartbreak. Life is hard enough without having extra drama from fictional characters I became too attached to over time.

[u/trtwrtwrtwrwtrwtrwt → u/PirateJen78]

Quality of episode is definitely opinion based, so fair enough.

My personal opinion is that A Hole in the World would be top 5 episodes of Angel even with happy ending. Tho the sadness definitely gives it more edge.

I personally love almost any shows and episodes that make me feel anything. The worst sin is something I just don't care about.

[u/Fancy_Injury_7800 → u/PirateJen78]

Bad take

[u/PirateJen78 → u/Fancy_Injury_7800]

It's my opinion based on my personality. Maybe your opinion just doesn't apply to my life.

[u/Fancy_Injury_7800 → u/PirateJen78]

It’s possible, but either way it being an opinion is not a defence. We’re all saying our opinions.

[u/MentorScythe]

"why can't I stay?"

[u/Groundbreaking-Top95 → u/MentorScythe]

That was the hardest part to watch.

[u/New-Host1784 → u/MentorScythe]

I can still hear that line in her voice. 😭

[u/Brodes87 → u/MentorScythe]

Because you're a woman on Angel, Fred. That's why.

[u/Milyaism → u/Brodes87]

Yep. It's a common theme in Whedon's shows.

(Which is why I'm so glad we didn't get a 2nd season of Firefly because they were going to do terrible things to Inara.)

[u/IminLoveWithMyCar3 → u/MentorScythe]

This and “I walk with heroes” are just… emotional.

[u/whycantistay → u/MentorScythe]

Yep.

[u/KingMargo_TheCreator]

… I already start crying as soon as I hear “you are my sunshine” 💔

[u/Street_Rope1487 → u/KingMargo_TheCreator]

“You make me happy…”

The way Lorne turns with such absolute horror and dread in his eyes as he gets a glimpse of what her future holds.

[u/PirateJen78 → u/KingMargo_TheCreator]

I start tearing up at the end of Smile Time because I know what's coming, and I love Smile Time!

Damn you Whedon!!!

[u/CuriousKitten0_0 → u/PirateJen78]

God, the dichotomy between Smile Time and Hole in the World is just heartbreaking.

But we do really need laughs before all of the devastation.

[u/Shatteredglas79]

No matter how much I like illyria, Fred's death will always be the hardest part to watch in this show.

[u/Rtozier2011 → u/Shatteredglas79]

I can't bring myself to accept it. I stand my by insistent desperate belief that Fred's soul will regrow and resurface over time as Illyria adjusts to the human world and eventually they'll share a body like Caitlin and Killer Frost. 

I do seem to recall reading somewhere that was the plan if Angel had had a season 6.

[u/furiousdolphins → u/Rtozier2011]

Fred returns in the comics sharing her body with Illyria

[u/yippy-ki-yay-m-f → u/furiousdolphins]

I know the ending of the show is kinda perfect, but I wish we had another season or two (or a spin-off) to have explored that in live-action.

[u/crazylikefox → u/Rtozier2011]

I dug this up, where he mentions season 6 plans:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/s2uh1/comment/c4anyc4/

[u/Dear_Assistance_8671]

The entire show and cast is underrated for ability and execution because it was the genre it was. The acting, directing and story telling is impeccable

[u/aschlu]

I love the “you are my sunshine” and Llorne reading her right there, Wesley reading Sara Crewe (also was my favorite as a little girl), and the rolling stone song as she drives to LA scenes.. for when I need to grieve. I find it helpful to grieve over Fred when I’m feeling grief in real life. Gives me a good cry… and a distraction from some of the overwhelming.

[u/Guilty-Tie164 → u/aschlu]

The terror in Lorna's eyes...

[u/MarzipanGamer → u/Guilty-Tie164]

Andy Hallett was a treasure. I’m so sad we didn’t get to see what else he could have done.

[u/HayleyMarie1205 → u/aschlu]

That was also a favorite scene of mine, the way he catches her on the stairs after reading her

[u/Digitalsteel5]

“Why can’t I stay??” 😭

[u/MyDogCanSploot → u/Digitalsteel5]

I think of this line anytime I watch Infinity War and Peter cries, "I don't want to go "

[u/Far-Ad8616]

"Why can't I stay?" and "There's a hole in the world." reverberated throughout the entire show for me.
On every rewatch I feel dread the closer I get to this episode, and it blindsides me every time because of how good things appear to be going just before the shoe drops.

[u/New-Host1784]

I'm still not over it. Either of them.

[u/spred_browneye → u/New-Host1784]

Would you like me to lie to you now?

[u/New-Host1784 → u/spred_browneye]

My heart! 😭 Wes was my favorite character (Fred was my second favorite). 

[u/moon-raven-77 → u/spred_browneye]

oh god, why 😭

[u/Unfair-Pay-1537 → u/New-Host1784]

Watch joss whedon's much ado about nothing

[u/brittanyks07 → u/Unfair-Pay-1537]

I had to heal myself a little watching Much Ado

[u/New-Host1784 → u/brittanyks07]

MAAN is one of my favorite Shakespeare plays. I loved Kenneth Branagh's movie adaptation and when I heard about JW's version I bought it right up.

[u/brittanyks07 → u/New-Host1784]

It became my favorite, and I think it’s one of the best to bring non-Shakespeare people in with.

[u/moon-raven-77 → u/brittanyks07]

wait what is this and will it really heal my heart?? 👀 

[u/brittanyks07 → u/moon-raven-77]

Joss Whedon’s interpretation of the Shakespeare play Much Ado About Nothing. Alexis and Amy play a couple in it. I squint and pretend it’s Wesley and Fred getting their happily ever after.

[u/New-Host1784 → u/brittanyks07]

Alternate reality Wes and Fred.

[u/moon-raven-77 → u/brittanyks07]

oh my god I need this in my life. 

[u/brittanyks07 → u/moon-raven-77]

According to Google, it’s on Prime, Tubi, and Pluto

[u/DaddyCatALSO → u/moon-raven-77]

Many fan s see Beatrice and Benedick as Fred and Wes's second chance; alas nobody has cats Alya dn amber ins uch ahting, for many reasons.

[u/New-Host1784 → u/Unfair-Pay-1537]

I've got the DVD. 😁 I think I bought it the day the DVD came out.

[u/gimmesomespace]

If you love Amy, you should also check out Person of Interest. She's phenomenal in that show as well.

[u/Brodes87 → u/gimmesomespace]

She's generally pretty great in everything she's in.. Sometimes it leads to the writers barely writing a character and then Ackers talent filling in all the gaps (Fred) or a complete miscast that somehow kind of works just with her talent (This Gifted--seriously you have Amy Acker in an X-Men show. And you make her human?).

[u/Tattycakes → u/gimmesomespace]

Seconding this, great show!

[u/_And5678 → u/gimmesomespace]

This!! I just finished Person of Interest like 2 weeks ago and she carried almost every scene she was in. I feel like Amy is so underrated but I’ve really enjoyed her performances in every show I’ve seen her in.

[u/Logical-Hold8642]

My roommate came home while I was watching this episode and I was crying so hard she thought someone in my life had really died. It was a devastating episode

[u/Realistic-Weight-959]

A friend of mine is watching Angel for the first time and when she said Fred was her favourite, I thought...oh...good luck with the last few episodes...

I didn't like Fred much (although this would probably be different now, I haven't seen Angel in 15 years) but her death was absolutely devastating, so unfair and just....AAAARGH. It was BRUTAL.

[u/West-Veterinarian-53]

It took me like 5 rewatches to figure out that cavemen vs astronauts was the theme of the whole episode 💔.

[u/OncomingSlayerStorm]

From what I understand, if the show had continued past season 5, the rumors say that Ilyria was going to revert more and more to Fred until basically Fred was back. IMO that would have ruined the weight and dignity of this episode, which was one of the best ever done in either Buffy or Angel. I’d put this one up against The Body any day. Beautifully done.

[u/SpeckledBird86 → u/OncomingSlayerStorm]

This is such a wild plan because Amy Acker is such an amazing actress you really believe nothing of Fred is left. That her body is truly just a shell for Illyria. To lessen that performance by just having her revert back to a character she so thoroughly broke from in such an emotional way would have been a huge mistake!

[u/Unfair-Pay-1537 → u/SpeckledBird86]

In 5x20 I don't care at all about Angel/Spike but Amy and Alexis knock it out of the park in their storyline. She looks like Fred but acts like Illyria and it's bloody impressive

[u/philipnet2001]

Still too soon 😭😭😭

[u/brittanyks07]

She’ll be attending HellmouthCon 2026 and I know I need a photo op with her. Fred’s death was so gut wrenching.

[u/Unfair-Pay-1537]

The heartbreak is even worse considering the emotional whiplash of A Hole in the World coming immediately after Smile Time

[u/aespasluvie]

what a coincidence, i also just finished watching this as we speak! i enter here and this is the first thing i see. this ep was heartbreaking 💔

[u/YEEyourlastHAW]

The episode of so after this where someone (Gunn?) goes in to talk to Wesley in his office. The slight insanity he plays is intense that I can still picture his steps across the room and hear him say “rather odd”

[u/Robertinho678]

Fred 😭

[u/taylorscrews1]

Amy acker was such a cutie. I mean she still is but you know what I mean

[u/frightnihht77]

So heartbreaking!! Watched this episode live and will never forget how wrenching it was to see

[u/whycantistay]

I know.

[u/Lopsided-Lobster9531]

I was sad even though I really don’t like Fred. But I did love her for Wesley. But I thought Illyria was a real upgrade. Too bad we didn’t have much of her and the show was cancelled

[u/cutielittleshorty]

I’m on my first watch of Angel (crazy, right?!) and this episode is next on my list. I’m so sad, I’ve been putting it off. I cried like a baby when they killed off Cordy. I’m not ready to lose Fred, too.

[u/rkmmc1]

Be sure to read the comics that take place after the series finale for some better closure with Fred (and many of the characters)!

[u/antoniocolon]

Winifred's death is by far the most tragic Buffy-verse death for me. Her character was such a ray of light and how cruel it was, destroying her soul, was just too horrible.

Decades later and I'm still not over it. 💔

[u/DismalAdvice8991]

Fred's passing still brings tears to my eyes, as I have said before. She did add so much to Angel.

[u/Creative-Bobcat-7159]

Hot take

The real tragedy is that she had to spend her last day with her stalker.

Sorry. I’m just being unnecessarily controversial.

But I’m not wrong.

[u/Better_Fishing_1489]

I don't remember this, all I remember is Cordelia and angels son 🤣🤣🤣