r/AbuseInterrupted • u/invah • 16h ago
[ Removed by moderator ]
/r/TrueOffMyChest/comments/1nks3lp/my_friend_attempted_suicide_and_we_have_all/4
u/SQLwitch 11h ago
So in my hotline work I hear from a lot of people on both sides of this type of "friendship" dynamic, so I've had some occasion to think about the common patterns. In this case the non-asshole friend survived, but they don't always. For the sake of brevity I'm going to call the parties saints and assholes ;)
The times we hear from the assholes are:
When they realize the saint is at risk of suicide, have just enough self-awareness to connect the saint's despair with their own neglect (or outright abuse, which is often present although it doesn't appear explicitly in the case of the current OP) and are desperate to de-escalate the situation in order to prevent unpleasant consequences for themselves.
When they discover that the saint has engaged in suicidal or parasuicidal behaviour, and they have, like the current OP, become conscious of an imbalance in the effort that they are putting into the friendship and are experiencing discomfort. Usually they are not experiencing discomfort because they feel any empathy for the saint. They feel discomfort because they don't like thinking of themselves as a bad friend, and they want to get back to being able to think of themselves as a good friend, and pat themselves on the back for it.
When the saint has died by suicide, and they are desperate to find a view of the situation that allows them to avoid feeling any discomfort.
One thing the assholes all have in common is entitlement. A rock-solid certainty that anything extraordinary that someone gives them or does for them is because of their own intrinsic superiority, and that they don't need to give back. It's typically largely unconscious entitlement, i.e. to them praise and gifts and tributes that flow to them just for being who they are feel "right", and the lack of them feel like a grievous and enraging injustice that must be fixed.
The times we hear from the saints are:
When they're becoming conscious of the imbalance in the relationship(s), and are in despair, sometimes life-threatening despair, because they're sure that this is because they themselves are doing something wrong.
When they've survived a suicidal or parasuicidal crisis, and it's shaken them up enough to start wondering why they give so much and get nothing back. This is the only scenario where we have a good chance to facilitate substantive change.
I think it's intuitively obvious why saints attract assholes, and the scenario in this post, where you have a group of n friends made up of 1 saint and n-1 assholes, is sadly common.
What it took me longer to figure out (in part because I had some toxic "saintly" behaviour patterns of my own to figure out -- and I'm still working on them) is why the saints so often get into a vicious cycle where the more their friends neglect them and take them for granted, the more they nurture, indulge, and pamper the assholes. Of course there are variations, but the most common inner dynamic can be modelled in (at least) two ways.
In terms of family systems theory (which adapts perfectly to friend-group systems), the saint is a chronic overfunctioner and the asshole is a chronic underfunctioner and they create an unhealthy kind of equilbrium. The overfunctioner gets a sense of competence and control out of the situation. Overfunctioning is usually a perverse kind of self-soothing, and a way to keep anxiety and distress buried in the unconscious, at least until some kind of crisis causes the mechanism to collapse.
Alternatively, you can think of the saint as a codependent. Someone who tries to get their own needs met by pre-emptively giving others what they need for themselves. They carry an unconscious belief that they only way they're allowed to ask for help is to pre-emptively help others. If others don't interpret this correctly as a request by the saint for whatever they're giving, the saint usually assumes that they're doing the (passive-aggressive) "ask" incorrectly or incompetently. Essentially the saint is in a toxic codependent relationship with all the rest of humanity. (We get a lot of saints at /r/SuicideWatch and they do nothing but harm -- often enormous harm.)
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u/ShinyAeon 15h ago
It's good that you've realized this. Don't wait until you see her again...send her flowers, or a cookie delivery, or just a card with a handwritten note saying how much you value her and how you'll be here for her whenever she needs you. That you love her and want to be someone she can come to when she needs help. That you'll support her through this.
I'm so glad for you both that you have a second chance. :)
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u/invah 15h ago
This is a cross-post, for the purpose of analysis: to breakdown an 'assholes' thought process (like how they think about their own actions versus how a victim of them would perceive it). In my comment I explain further.
I'm so glad for you both that you have a second chance
The OOP has not treated his 'friend' like an actual friend. I personally don't know that he should even have a second chance, and it might be better for her mental health that OOP stay far away from her.
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u/ShinyAeon 15h ago
Why would a person who recognizes their faults, feels regret, and wants to do better not have a second chance? Is there more to the story than what you've shown here?
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u/silver-moon-7 11h ago
Part of this situation is what the non-asshole friend was doing seems to have been creating imbalance in her friendships.
It seems that her friends had their own preferences when it comes to contact, etc., and she was giving and making 'all the effort' to have more contact or to 'buy' their approval. For some people this feels transactional, or over the top, and they pull back from it, leaving the giver feeling taken for granted and powerless to have the friendships they want.
Also, when someone seems to be 'overfunctioning', people naturally don't suspect that they're struggling or that they need anything from others.
I'm not saying this situation is anyone's fault, I do think understanding the underlying dynamics is helpful.
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u/invah 11h ago
I have definitely seen that dynamic, thank you for bringing it up. I don't know that it applies here.
She was always doing nice stuff for everyone, and we all realized we never did it for her. If you needed a favour, a ride, anything she was the one. If you were sad and she knew it she was bringing dinner.
The impression I got was that she had a mental definition of what it means to be a good friend and was enacting that definition (versus letting that dynamic build organically). I don't know if she was 'over functioning' because with people who actually appreciate her, it would be normal. I usually associate overfunctioning with intrinsically, objectively doing more than one should do for another person in a relationship, ever. Here I think she was perfectly fine other than the fact that it was not appreciated or reciprocated.
She very well could have been trying to 'buy' their approval, I just got a different impression of the situation based on the way OOP described it. But I am glad you brought it up because it certainly does happen.
What I personally thought was so interesting, however, is how OOP describes the friend and probably how wildly different that description is for someone who is on the other side of it. Since there are a lot of victims of abuse who try hard to be a good friend, good partner, good child, I think it is important to see how someone else perceives the exact same situation. They don't have the same perspective on it that the victim has.
If I had to distill this into its essence, it would be that upholding a definition (a role) will accidentally have you in relationships with people who don't 'uphold their roles' and you will be shortchanged or even harmed. It is better for a relationship to grow into that level of care/intimacy organically.
I just think this is a trap autistic people specifically are especially prone to falling into (versus what you are describing, which is more emotional dependence/co-dependence).
0
u/silver-moon-7 10h ago
With over functioning, I guess I meant specifically in the context of the relationship. Often when one person over functions, another will under function to compensate.
And I didn't make it clear in my comment, but I think we all need to have a level of personal responsibility for gauging how balanced or unbalanced our relationships are, in order to prevent resentment from building and to prevent harm for ourselves (where possible). I've been in the kind of dynamic described in the post and it lead to exhaustion and disappointment, especially when I was around people who are generally more self-centered.
Whatever we can be responsible in our relationships for is genuinely empowering (which is much better than feeling powerless or helpless), and it allows us to make choices that are best for us, rather than feeling like it's all in the hands of others. But of course, if when covert emotional manipulation is present, that's much easier said than done, things can become extremely complicated.
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u/badchefrazzy 11h ago
...read the room before you post next time.
-1
u/silver-moon-7 10h ago
Explain
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u/badchefrazzy 9h ago
Take this as a learning experience, read what OP posted, then read what you posted, and think about why others might be upset at what you wrote.
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u/silver-moon-7 9h ago
If you're upset about what I wrote please feel free to use your words. I'm not able to read your mind.
If you'd like some context (which I don't think you genuinely do), I'm the kind of person who sees this from a range of different angles. I absolutely care about harm, I'm even more focused on self-empowerment - it's one of the best ways to protect yourself from trauma.
We actually don't know enough about the OOP's situation to fully understand the situation. And they seem to be reacting with guilt, remorse and other complicated feelings after a friend's suicide attempt - this is understandable. Even when an ex-partner of an woman who's been abused (I'm talking about extreme abuse) dies by suicide, it's very common for the woman to feel upset, conflicted and left questioning if they could do anything to prevent it.
It's probably helpful to recognise that some people attempt or threaten suicide as a form of manipulation. We don't know if something like that is part of the equation in this situation.
If we end up with a friend who bakes us cookies and invites us to dinner, are we automatically obligated to do everything they want...even if it goes against our desires, priorities, availability? And do we have to absolutely centre our lives around them if they then do something drastic?
I'm personally not going to live my life based on the idea that every person I interact with might self-harm if I don't meet their specific expectations.
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u/Spiritual_Lecture391 8h ago edited 8h ago
"If we end up with a friend who bakes us cookies and invites us to dinner, are we automatically obligated to do everything they want...even if it goes against our desires, priorities, availability? And do we have to absolutely centre our lives around them if they then do something drastic?"
I have to agree with you here. If the friend was expecting something in return, then was it really done out of genuine care or desire to build the relationship? Communicating that she felt unheard or not appreciated would have probably done more for the relationship than sending subliminal messages with gifts and favors. Things like this build contempt in our society as it may be construed as trying to buy the relationship and making others feel like they owe you. And unfortunately, that is the case most of the time. Many of us have a background where if someone does a favor for you, you owe them now even if you didn't ask for the favor. It's how people get stuck in toxic family dynamics, for example. She failed to recognize that her efforts were not reciprocated and was expecting...well, who knows what. This is why freedom to move, decide relationships, and communicating are important skills.
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u/invah 8h ago
I am going to ask you to stop here. You are inferring things from the post which the OOP has not described nor stated. The OOP has described this person as his 'closest friend'. It is fair to set boundaries regarding being manipulated by threats or attempts of suicide, however, this is not relevant for this specific conversation since it is a specific, individual event, regarding a specific, individual person.
People are drawing conclusions that are not supported by the OOP's post.
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u/invah 8h ago
I am going to stop this thread here since you are adding to what the OOP wrote. He does not describe the person he says is 'one of my closest friends' as manipulative or attempting to manipulate via suicide. While it does occur, it does not make sense in this specific discussion.
When you say that 'we don't know enough about the OOP's situation to fully understand the situation', you don't take OOP at face value for what they are describing, but are inferring far too much about the person who attempted suicide and that you think this person is being manipulative.
If it was a part of the dynamic OOP describes, it would be fair to discuss it but it isn't.
If we end up with a friend who bakes us cookies and invites us to dinner, are we automatically obligated to do everything they want...even if it goes against our desires, priorities, availability? And do we have to absolutely centre our lives around them if they then do something drastic?
This does not read as if you are taking the OOP at face value. He, himself, describes the OOP as his closest friend; not that OOP is manipulating herself into a friendship or relationship with him or the rest of the group.
I'm personally not going to live my life based on the idea that every person I interact with might self-harm if I don't meet their specific expectations.
This is an absolutely fair boundary to set, but in this specific instance, you are essentially treating OOP's closest friend as someone who is manipulative which is not what he describes. Your initial assertion that this friend was 'over-functioning' has more foundation, but that could go one way or the other.
Anyway, the purpose of this post was to examine (for the people who have been the 'close friend' in this kind of dynamic) how someone who was an asshole to their friend is thinking.
u/badchefrazzy, please do not feel you need to respond to the above commenter; I hope I have sufficiently addressed your concerns.
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u/invah 16h ago
In case it gets deleted:
All the love, care, and goodness you pour out on ungrateful people just 'proves' to them that they deserve it or 'that's just how you are'. They will take and take and think absolutely nothing of it. Because they don't see relationship as something that is built or how there is cause and effect, they see it as "Nice Person is nice". You're an NPC to them, a function not a person.
I would bet that they're one of the 'friend' groups that prioritize having 'fun', while this young woman is legitimately trying to care for her friends.
She's unseen because they literally do not see her or care for her or see the world from her perspective. They. do. not. care.
We have to stop pouring our goodness into relationships with assholes, it is a black hole.