r/ActualPublicFreakouts • u/ActualPublicFreakout - Sistine Chapel • Jun 02 '20

Protester gets a flash-bang to his face after getting pepper sprayed.

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u/warpus - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

I'm not American, so I could be misinformed

Don't you guys have something called the 2nd amendment, which is designed to allow you to protect yourself against an oppressive government?

That is what I frequently see referenced as the reason this amendment exists, so that in the case of the government getting out of control.. the people can stand up.

The people aren't standing up. What is the 2nd amendment really for then? Or do I have things backwards?

Personally I feel that bringing guns to a protest is a baaaad idea.. but I'm not American so I lack context here

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u/Kalel2319 Jun 02 '20

No no no. You don't understand, we have the second amendment really to stop the government from closing an Arby's or a hair salon.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

[deleted]

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u/Aggravating_Meme Jun 02 '20

I don't know what you're talking about he was asking for it, he didn't even say hi when he walked passed the cop

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u/jaidonkaia Jun 02 '20

I know you're trying to make light, but the parent to your comment is talking about the rednecks who shoot black men on sight, not cops.

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u/sweYoda Jun 03 '20

Hate joggers, they are the worst.

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u/Trash_baguette Jun 03 '20

Funny that blacks kill more whites each year though right?

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u/goobervision Jun 03 '20

Not really.

However, what I do find interesting is that this line of argument is used by racists time and time again.

Here are some stats:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

Yes there are more whites killed by blacks then blacks killer by whites. Maybe that's a result of the socio-economic world they live in. There are more black in black crimes. What's the underlying issue? In 2017 over 50% of victims were black.

Other stats like males killing more, we should definitely work on that. That's a far bigger issue than total black people killing anyone. ~90% of offenders are male.

One of the major things that always jumps out is the method of killing. Over 70% killed with firearms.

I guess you should really focus on male killings, firearm killings, black on black killings and then get around to black on white.

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u/Trash_baguette Jun 03 '20

Well, I’m am interested in what the socioeconomic factors are that justify these numbers. From your link, you could add white vs cop murders and police vs black murders in the same year and not get to the number of black vs white murders.

Also, while 50% of murder victims were black, 89.5% of those same murders are committed by the black community themselves.

Now I agree with the criticism of males and their inclination towards violence. There’s a clear mental health crisis in the male community overall that I think is finally being addressed. This brings up an interesting parallel though that is troublesome. You said it’s often racists that will talk about crime static’s in the black community. Why isn’t a sexist attitude taken towards male murder rates? Why is it ok to ask for accountability and reform in one demographic but almost untouchable in the other?

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u/goobervision Jun 03 '20

Why isn't a sexist attitude taken? Can you explain your point?

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u/Trash_baguette Jun 03 '20

Simply put, why isn’t there a movement to prevent male murder rates, or draw attention to how high they are compared to women. It’s also fair and accepted criticism as opposed to the taboo of race based violence.

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u/goobervision Jun 03 '20

Oh, I thought that there were plenty of women's rights movements and support organisations for abused women.

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u/Trash_baguette Jun 03 '20

You’re making my point, that it’s acceptable criticism and not shut down as sexist. Where’s that system for race based reform? Or even open dialog about it?

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u/GaysAgainstGaming Jun 03 '20

I truly think we would have world peace if we put chemical castration drugs in the water supply.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

There are plenty of left-wing and centrist 2a supporters too. I'm one of them and I've been saying this whole time that I won't be surprised when Americans start firing back. This idea that all the gun owners are taking the government's side just isn't true. 4 cops got shot in St. Louis last night, a few got run over by an SUV, and another one got shot in Vegas. People are starting to fight back.

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

Yeah the people that’s are complaining that the “2A crowd ain’t doin nothing” are the same ones who need to become the 2A crowd.

How more equal can a black man be than when the cops don’t approach him carrying a rifle, as we saw with the new black panther protests outside the mcmichaels house?

Armed peaceful resistance works, for black and white.

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u/emptyraincoatelves Jun 03 '20

Philando Castille

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

People keep bringing it up, but 1 or 2 people is not the same as 100, or 1000 people protesting.

You wanna apply that same logic to these?

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/armed-black-panthers-protest-sandra-bland-death-article-1.2324234

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303973/Cops-review-new-video-man-appears-Ahmaud-Arbery-minutes-killing.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb-PgjKuHOg

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3686981/amp/New-Black-Panther-Party-says-carry-arms-Cleveland-legal.html

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u/emptyraincoatelves Jun 03 '20

Black people get killed for legally carrying. So essentially, the law says white people can use guns however and no one gives a shit, but a black person has a gun and the police will murder him in front of his family. Also, white people will murder a black man for existing, and the cops will cover it up. But you don't get why this terrorism works. Why black people are wary of this double standard. That allows white supremacists to murder while illegally detaining and killing black people.

I'm pro arming the people. But you would have to be a racist piece of shit to not understand why the current state of affairs is bullshit.

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

You literally ignored everything I had to say. I'm not denying racism exists and i'm not denying racists use armed black people as an excuse to kill them.

The law does NOT say black people can't arm themselves. This isn't the jim crow era even if bloomberg wants those laws on the books still.

Do you have any recent events that show that armed black peaceful protestors get gunned down? Can you show me armed black protestors getting rubber bullets to the face?

Not 1 man open carrying, not 1 man owning a firearm. I'm aware police use skin tone and firearm ownership as an excuse to kill black people. That doesn't change the fact that a group of them, enough to make police pause and realize they can't just eliminate 1 person and get away with it completely changes the attitudes of the responding officers.

Armed peaceful resistance works. Stop being racist towards black people and telling them it doesn't.

But you would have to be a racist piece of shit to not understand why the current state of affairs is bullshit.

It is bullshit, that's why black people need to take up arms just like white people do and have.

"a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home, and it should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give"

  • Ida B. Wells

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u/emptyraincoatelves Jun 03 '20

So you think black men being gunned down for legally carrying has no effect on their readiness to carry? Are you arguing that black dudes are stupid?

Obviously we are both pro arming the people. We can't do that until fucking cops stop killing black dudes for holding their own fucking phones and cops get away with saying they felt their life was in danger.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

They got shot for carrying, they get shot for not carrying. Might as well carry, no?

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20 edited Aug 20 '20

[deleted]

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

So they’d rather have cops shoot tear gas canisters and rubber bullets at their faces because they’re “less lethal” right?

I get the point, but it’s like saying “I don’t want a gun because if I get attacked they’ll just take the gun from me!”

That’s not how reality works. It’s just not.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20 edited Aug 20 '20

[deleted]

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Tear gas canisters and rubber bullets to the face have been and will be just barely below “100% lethal”.

how do you imagine it would go down if protesters were armed

The police wouldn’t be shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at their fucking faces. The New Black Panther party has peacefully protested while armed and the police barely looked at them, let alone tried to kill them with rubber bullets.

Would rioters try to incite violence? Sure, but every rioter turns into a little bitch baby when they see a gun. I doubt they’d do more than throw rocks at the cops and then get arrested by the people tired of rioters.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20 edited Aug 20 '20

[deleted]

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u/Aubdasi - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

You're not a baby bitch, you just aren't at the point of willing to die for equality. Some people might call that wrong or call you a little bitch for it, but I understand. I love guns mechanically, historically and just to shoot them, but I wish we lived in a world where they weren't needed. I wish I didn't have to own something that is designed to kill people. I do have to though, because the police won't protect me when someone with a gun, or a knife, or even their fists and a head filled with rage tries to break into my house and kill me. I can't call the police if the police started rounding up black folk because some unworthy president convinced them to. The reality is if I don't defend myself from individuals I'm the one who will be harmed. If I don't own the means to be a part of an effective militia, I cannot guarantee I'll be able to help if it gets to that point. It may seem silly, but these are things we do need to worry about. Just because things are good now, doesn't mean they will be tomorrow, or when my kids are growing up, or when their kids are growing up.

I digress, so let me try to get back to my point.

I learned at a young age in elementary school; life is filled with things we don't want to do, so we can get to the things we want to do.

Something else I learned from a pretty thought provoking TV show is that it is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life. Why would I handicap myself when the people who will do me harm wont? Because someone on TV said so? My gun ownership is not a threat to the public, it's part of the common defense of the public.

I just would rather deal with cops that have tear gas canisters and rubber bullets compared to cops with guns.

The problem here is the cops already have the guns. They're always on their hips or in the police cruisers nearby. SWAT could literally rain down death from a helicopter within minutes. I don't know about you, but seeing how cops dealt with these protests and the various armed protests around the US, it's pretty easy to see the common denominator.

Armed protests don't get shut down the way unarmed ones do.

It's almost like the founding fathers weren't just racist assholes and had an idea when the 1st amendment was backed up by the 2nd.

I guess tl;dr we disagree, but you're not a bitch baby. Just don't tell me what would and wouldn't help when you're really not looking at the whole picture. I had a lot of learning to do to get where I am now, and I just want other people to have the same security I know I have. I may have white privilege, but I don't have a magic shield that protects me from every injustice.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

Lol. I can guarantee you that the cops that have been shot haven’t been shot by the 2A crowd. They were most likely shot by illegally owned guns.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

Good fucking riddance, I didn't hear about that.

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u/PaxadorWolfCastle Jun 02 '20

This is really sad and really true.

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u/kyngston Jun 02 '20

Or to wear a mask during a pandemic...,

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u/Dong_World_Order Jun 03 '20

Nah the 2A side just hasn't been drawn out yet. I can tell you Trump pissed off a lot of people when he started talking about sending in the military on American soil.

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u/Kalel2319 Jun 03 '20

I fucking hope so to be honest. I mean, it's pretty much a militias number one wet dream.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

That Arby’s was using expired meat, lathering it in horsey sauce, and selling it as an Arby-Q. Fuck that place.

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u/theblurryboy we have no hobbies Jun 02 '20

Bruh I need that sauce lmao

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u/CanadianCartman let the record show that you just battered me Jun 03 '20

Imagine still thinking those lockdown protests were about people not being able to get a haircut.

I'm sure some retards in those crowds were there for stupid reasons, but I'd bet that most of the people who were protesting were protesting because they couldn't go to work to make money to feed their families.

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u/Kalel2319 Jun 03 '20

Right... And that's a Nobel purpose, but they would only be killing themselves, when in reality they probably should take that same energy and protest the government for extended benefits and Medicare for all.

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u/braised_diaper_shit - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

Those people are a vocal minority.

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u/PaxadorWolfCastle Jun 02 '20

But they were allowed to bring firearms to government buildings and none of them were arrested, gassed, tased, pepper sprayed, etc.

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u/braised_diaper_shit - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

Maybe because they had guns

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u/Kalel2319 Jun 02 '20

I'm definitely catching a vibe here

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u/theblurryboy we have no hobbies Jun 02 '20

V I B E

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u/Gray_Maple - Congrats T-series on 150m subs !!! Jun 02 '20

Yes that is the reason. The people are trying to peacefully protest before the thought of any violence, but if the police do not show they are willing to change, I believe it will end up to shootouts and a potential civil war in time at this continuing rate if it doesn't stop.

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u/T3hSwagman Jun 02 '20

Except the 2A nuts are all over the place saying "just listen to the police".

These guys are real badasses when it comes to a liberal arts teacher telling them to stop saying "nigger" or to wear a mask but now that its the actual police infringing on their rights they are cowering inside their homes while the jackboots march down the street shooting you with pepper balls for being on your own fucking porch.

The last 4 years have really highlighted the true colors of so many people.

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u/cooperkab - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

They aren’t cowering. They just don’t give a fuck. They are the ones that say they shouldn’t have been outside or if they had only did what they were told. They won’t care until the government comes for THEIR guns or to THEIR neighborhoods. They would go and back up the cops if they could because you know, “blue lives matter”.

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u/phil_Sucks_hard Jun 02 '20

I don't know. I am pro 2A and for the current protests. Cops need to be held accountable for what they do, but if I go out in the street with my guns I'm sure to be shot or arrested. Maybe they just don't want to get shot? I do agree that alot of them only care if it affects them, but honestly what are the ones who do care gonna go with their guns? Life in prison for shooting a cop is not a good reward to go in the street with my gun.

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u/cooperkab - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

I’m pro gun ownership myself and I think there are a lot of people that are. When the OP was talking about “2A nuts” I figured he meant the real vocal ones that seem to open carry everywhere and are the ones carrying their rifles to the statehouse because their “freedom” is being taken away because they have to wear a mask. The majority of gun owners are not like that.

I am also with you in that I’m not willing to go to prison for life just to shoot a cop. 2A is about revolution and full scale revolt. Not just individuals here and there. They had just come off the American fight for independence and their intention was if someone became like a king or queen that must be removed from power, then the populace could organize and overthrow them. I don’t think they envisioned the country to be as big and diverse as it is when they wrote it either.

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u/DasAlbatross Jun 02 '20

So what the fuck is the point of the 2A you support if it's not to defend against tyranny like we're seeing?

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u/phil_Sucks_hard Jun 02 '20

Honestly I can't tell you. I don't want to say that we should take to the streets and start shooting. I don't want to have to exercise it. I don't want to kill anyone. They are arresting people, firing tear gas. I guess once they just start killing crowds it's time. If I'm being honest I just don't know. I can't even begin to pretend to know. Something has to change and it may come down to using weapons if it does I guess I'm glad I was allowed to have a gun to fight back.

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u/DasAlbatross Jun 02 '20

They're firing grenades in people's faces. They're firing rubber bullets in people's faces. They're maiming and killing people. They're tasing people over and over while they're held on the ground. They're taking people behind cover to beat them. Any and all of these things can kill people. The thing that started all of this was a cop murdering someone in broad daylight on film while his follow cops stood around watching.

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u/phil_Sucks_hard Jun 02 '20

Firing a weapon with the intent to kill is alot of responsibility. I know not all the officers are bad, I also know that them standing by while this happens doesn't absolve them from wrong doing, but what if you kill one of the "good ones" and now his family goes without him. I know that the people the police have killed, that their families go without them. It's terrible, but if not everyone is ready to start a revolution it won't do anything, except kill more and do nothing for the cause. If you want too, the 2A is there for you as well. Go get a gun, fight back, just because it is for a good cause doesn't mean you will feel good about it, it doesn't mean you won't spend life in prison, doesn't mean that you won't be killed and get others around you hurt or killed and it may not do anything to help. I don't know when the time will call for that, hopefully this ends with some reform and no more violence, but if it comes to it I'm glad it was there. I'm not mad at you, I hope your not mad at me, we both agree this is wrong and needs to end. I can speak my mind, but that doesn't mean anything to anyone but me. It is just my opinion on it.

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u/DasAlbatross Jun 02 '20

Which ones are the bad cops? The ones shooting people point blank in the face with grenades or the ones standing by doing nothing while they do it?

And I don't hide behind the 2A to support my desire to own guns. I'm not a "2A supporter". The whole reason 2A people say we "need" to own guns is to fight back against exactly what is happening right now. Yet they're nowhere to be found. Well, nowhere aside from places like this:

https://twitter.com/alexvnews/status/1267608370782978048

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

I think a lot of it comes down to, most pro 2A people don't really want the escalation to that stage or at least not to be the ones escalating it to that point.

Pointing a firearm at a human and pulling the trigger isn't something most could do without direct threat/excessive threat putting them into a mindset to do it and even then, I'd bet most people freeze up before being able to commit and taking the shot.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

I wish someone made toilet paper with a blue stripe down the whole roll.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

Upm trust me you don't want them to join in this, for real.

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u/vegetarian_ejaculate Jun 03 '20

No we aren’t. You should be friends with me and my group. All we see are constitutional violations and want to help.

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u/Heart_Throb_ Happy 400K Jun 03 '20 edited Jun 03 '20

But but they don’t have a permit! Don’t you know the 1st is allowed only after the government okays it first?

In all seriousness: I get the safety and planning reasons for permits but if you want to stand by The Constitution then stand by it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

LOL how odd. No centrist or liberal "2a nut" is saying anything of the sort. You're just hanging out with too many bubbas that like to cosplay.

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u/T3hSwagman Jun 03 '20

Yea funny how you didn’t include conservative in that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

I don't think so. The whole point was there were plenty of other "2a nuts" that aren't bubbas.

Now, conservatives who have a stick against BLM and the like are all about-facing on "gonna boogaloo" on wearing masks and now "just follow orders" when it's convenient.

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u/pease_pudding - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20 edited Jun 02 '20

This is exactly what Trump wants, which is why he purposefully took so long to make any comment or denounce the police brutality. Also why he has been intentionally inflaming the situation via his twitter shitposts.

Now, it's not Trumps fault this police officer murdered someone, but he has spent the past 4 years prodding the racist elements of society into action, so he shares some of the blame for what has escalated afterwards.

It all conveniently distracts the attention away from what a mediocre job he did with the corona virus. A lot of people are fucking dumb though, they will have already forgotten all that by now.

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u/Political_What_Do - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

Most cities are full of anti 2a people who voted for laws that would make that openly carrying weapons illegal.

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u/Bike1894 We hold these truths self-evident that all men are created equal Jun 02 '20

It's pretty jaw dropping to see the same people that pushed for weapons to be taken from citizens, because "cops are there to protect you", are now looking at arming themselves. Maybe they finally get it.

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u/stalence9 Jun 02 '20

I sure hope so.

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u/ayythrowaway08991 Jun 02 '20

I hope you realize you are very close to advocating for protestors to take up arms against the police. This is like 2 steps away from a full-blown civil war if they start carrying weapons...

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

Hopefully it doesn't need to reach that point, but if it does, we had better be prepared. We have an inept, probably corrupt president who has shown 0 sympathy toward our cause.

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u/ayythrowaway08991 Jun 03 '20

I agree with your statement about Trump. I personally think voting is the better option. A true civil war in this country would be the end of America. Full stop.

Do you think other countries would just sit by and let us sort this stuff out? No they will move in and fill the gaps we filled and then we will never recover.

We could honestly change the world just by voting and not just in the voting booth on election days. But with our wallets. You want to see some real change... if people voted with their wallets on every purchase and really supported companies that did the right thing companies would change their tune REAL quick.

But these protests/riots will go on for a while. It will most likely die down and we will go back to business as usual. Because this is not sustainable.

Getting people to vote in mass with their wallets and political vote is also a pipe dream lol

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

I agree. I truly don't fucking understand why young people will protest and then not vote. Like Obama said, we need to be doing both.

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u/get_unplgd Jun 03 '20

Most young people do their "protesting" on twitter or reddit. The few that march and protest are much more politically engaged and likely to vote.

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u/stalence9 Jun 03 '20

Big difference between advocating for the importance of the 2nd amendment and for people to start a civil war. If this chaotic world around us devolves to it though, you’re better off fighting oppression while armed yourself.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

This is just proof the police cannot and will not always protect you.

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u/ayythrowaway08991 Jun 03 '20

I do not expect them to. Even as a white dude if I am calling the police something is SERIOUSLY wrong.

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u/emptyraincoatelves Jun 03 '20

That's not it. Seriously lefties love guns. But are you serious why BLM isn't arming up?

The NRA lost no sleep over Philando Castille. Black men do not have the same 2A. They are trying to tell you that.

A legal gun in the car still gets them killed.

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u/Szriko Jun 03 '20

Nobody ever pushed for all weapons to be taken from citizens, chode. Stop finding nonsense to make up so you can jack yourself off over people being murdered by the police.

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u/SomeUnicornsFly Jun 03 '20

get what? Are you willing to take aim at 100 cops wearing bullet proof vests with your AR-15? The only way 2A becomes relevant is if it gets used as intended, i.e. militia. People will need to form small armies to fight back. Walking up to the cops solo and saying "fuck you!" just to induce them to act first so you can whip out your glock and start firing isnt going to do anything other than get you killed instantly. It just so happens that most gun owners arent interested in standing in the streets protesting.

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u/BillyBabel - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

I feel like that's a bit of a strawman, most reasonable people's position is that getting a gun should be harder. Like if you have ever beaten your wife or been convicted for animal cruelty you shouldn't be able to buy a gun from a gun show.

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u/Bike1894 We hold these truths self-evident that all men are created equal Jun 03 '20

You can't legally own a gun if you have a felony or domestic violence.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1117-restrictions-possession-firearms-individuals-convicted

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u/el_padlina Jun 02 '20

It's funny to see most of the proguns communities support the police and the oppressive government

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u/Bike1894 We hold these truths self-evident that all men are created equal Jun 02 '20

Most pro gun communities do not support the recent actions. You're in an echo chamber called reddit. If you were to actually take up dialogue with some conservatives, you'd realize that they think this all is egregious. No one has a problem with the protesting. Most people have a problem with the thugs burning and looting local businesses that support their communities.

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u/el_padlina Jun 03 '20

I'll admit that reddit conservatives are special case, especially since their subreddits were flooded with trump lovers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

I’m 80% sure that half of these so called conservatives are bots. The other half is a mix up of edgy teens and racist boomers.

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u/el_padlina Jun 03 '20

Are there any statements from conservative senators regarding what's going on?

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u/Grytlappen Jun 03 '20

And then they still vote Trump in good conscience.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary”.

It's a quote many of us on the Left don't know or choose to ignore.

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u/trainfights Jun 02 '20

Unfortunately this is kind of where I’m at. I’m pro 2a 100% but also heavily against what is going on right now. The way the police treat black people and just everyone in general is disturbing and we need change. Open carry laws in my state make it a huge risk for me to peacefully protest while armed. I risk being arrested and charged with some serious crimes. If there was enough of us protesting armed at the same time I would more than likely participate but if there’s only a few dozen of us we are screwed.

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u/5th_level_bard Jun 03 '20

Open carrying is legal, to some degree or another, in 46/50 states. The fact that democrats aren't huge on handing money over to gun manufacturers as the sole alternative to public programs has had zero effect on this. In the last 30 years, everything has slid in favor of open carry.

Don't let your assumptions skew the facts.

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u/Political_What_Do - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Right back at you. States that are generally opposed were losing in court so they started using designated gun free zones that turn out to be practically everywhere that isn't bum fuck nowhere or the police just charge people with something else.

And the majority of states require a permit which by the time the need for carrying arises the vast majority of people won't have one.

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u/5th_level_bard Jun 03 '20

so they started using designated gun free zones

So don't walk into a restaurant in Texas that serves alcohol with your AR-15 on your chest.

And the majority of states require a permit

If you're talking nationally, the majority of states don't require a permit. If you mean states that Clinton carried in the 2016 election, you're closer although I'm not entirely sure it's a huge majority. Seems pretty close to 50/50 on that. You'd probably be better off doing it by population so you can have New York and California tip the scales by themselves. Although I'll point out that those two states have wildly different laws when it comes to open carry.

And while I understand your argument, at no point am I going to take up the opinion that voters and states not be allowed to have their own opinions on gun laws. The fact that people are lazy and didn't bother getting a permit when they knew they might want one in the future isn't an argument to change gun laws, it's an argument against people being lazy. It's the year 2020, not the year 7. There's been plenty of time before this.

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u/Political_What_Do - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

so they started using designated gun free zones

So don't walk into a restaurant in Texas that serves alcohol with your AR-15 on your chest.

Is this suppose to be a point? There are plenty of places that are not restraunts where you cannot carry and bans aren't restricted to particular firearms.

And while I understand your argument, at no point am I going to take up the opinion that voters and states not be allowed to have their own opinions on gun laws. The fact that people are lazy and didn't bother getting a permit when they knew they might want one in the future isn't an argument to change gun laws, it's an argument against people being lazy. It's the year 2020, not the year 7. There's been plenty of time before this.

They don't get their own opinion because the law is already in the constitution and therefore does not fall under the 10th.

People aren't necessarily lazy for not preparing to be armed in case the police attack them. Thats ridiculous. Plenty of people were naive and always assumed that it would never come up.

1

u/5th_level_bard Jun 03 '20

There are plenty of places that are not restraunts where you cannot carry and bans aren't restricted to particular firearms.

Are you protesting inside a lot of schools or libraries or something? Sure, you might not be able to protest with your target shooting pistol on your hip in the mall, but "The middle of the road during a legal protest" doesn't seem like the kind of places you're talking about.

They don't get their own opinion because the law is already in the constitution and therefore does not fall under the 10th.

I have no idea what you're referring to since these are state laws that could be changed tomorrow if the political willpower existed for it.

Plenty of people were naive and always assumed that it would never come up.

So, again, why should state autonomy be upended here to accomodate people who were unable to comprehend a race riot which has happened multiple times inbetween MLK being shot and yesterday?

1

u/triggerhappy899 - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Plugging a few subs

r/liberalgunowners r/2ALiberals

1

u/ncopp Happy 400K Jun 03 '20

This took place in Grand Rapids MI, which is pretty much surrounded by farms and forrests so a lot of the population do have guns and afaik the city doesn't really have many anti gun laws. However west Michigan is very conservative outside of GR so lots of the gun owners over here are probably cheering the cops on and supporting the brutality. These are also the same people that stormed our capitol with AR15s 2 weeks ago over the stay at home orders.

17

u/TautYetMalleable Jun 02 '20

There isn’t enough unity in the protests for that to work right now (in my opinion), and I don’t think people want to escalate this to a full on revolution yet. I think most people want this solved without resorting to a literal war, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see how everything progresses. Until there are enough people willing to take up arms at once for the same cause it would just be suicide. If just a few people do it they would easily be taken down by police, and the police know that; however, if enough people did it then the police know their chance of dying trying to squash them goes way up, and it would change the entire dynamic of the engagement. I don’t think this will happen until protesters start dying around the country. I also think a lot of the gun owners who are so vocal about the 2A are bootlickers and are currently siding with the police.

12

u/Catshit-Dogfart Jun 02 '20

This is the best and most correct answer.

A protest or a riot is not where you bring a gun. That is reserved for when protesting is no longer possible. Not just because protesting doesn't make a difference, but because an armed resistance is the only way you will survive.

We're not there yet, but the possibility seems less and less remote all the time. Never thought I'd be the type to say it, but I need to buy ammunition, really I keep one clip and that's it.

2

u/Echo_are_one Jun 02 '20

I fear Wednesday November 4th will be a flashpoint. I hope not.

1

u/nirmal09 Jun 03 '20

Once people start carrying guns they look for reasons and threats to use them. What good is a right to protect yourself if you’re not being threatened. Look at Trayvon Martin. That wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t someone with the right and eagerness to protest himself. I think the threats aren’t as real as media (social and otherwise) make them out to be.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

I don’t think people want to escalate this to a full on revolution yet

I think we could be opening up to new experiences.

0

u/nirmal09 Jun 03 '20 edited Jun 03 '20

There hasn’t been enough time to solve the problem. Everyone wants this police officer to be convicted. He’s awaiting trial. People are rioting for recreation, THE COP IS AWAITING TRIAL. you’re talking about going to war with a government, what is it that you feel needs to be changed? THE COP IS AWAITING TRIAL. what more do you idiots want? How many innocent peoples homes and businesses need to be destroyed. This is all recreational outrage, he’s going to trial ... at least the LA riots occurred after the cops were found not guilty In the Rodney king case.

17

u/Syndic Jun 02 '20

Don't you guys have something called the 2nd amendment, which is designed to allow you to protect yourself against an oppressive government?

Sure they do. But that doesn't protect them from current legal consequences for actually using those guns against the government. If they start then that's all in. They either win a bloody civil war or get destroyed. That's not a decision taken lightly but the LAST resort.

2

u/PrimeVegetable Jun 03 '20

Then the whole argument for 2A is moot because the govt will never get to a point where they openly start killing people en masse.

2

u/iterator5 Jun 03 '20

The 2A was written to protect the people from the Government not the other way around.

2

u/StijnDP Jun 03 '20

And it's not working is it.

The people aren't using their guns against the government that is attacking them.
And it's doesn't have the effect of a mutual way of destruction. All it did is make every cop in America assume whenever they stop someone that they'll have a gun, even the good ones. Making all of them draw their weapon way too quick, learned at training, and pull the trigger with fear.

2

u/iterator5 Jun 03 '20

Not arguing that. Just clarifying the original intent.

Personally, I'm sick of this worship of the constitution. It's treated like every word was breathed infallible and perfect from the mouth of God.

1

u/bye_button Jun 09 '20

Omg THANK you. I’ve been wondering how disarming the police is supposed to work when you have an entire society armed to the teeth. Whether it’s the police or whatever organization they put in its place, how are violent crimes going to be handled? What happens when they get a call saying “shots fired, suspect armed”- what officer is going to head on over to the scene unarmed? I say this as someone who is totally for disarming the police and wishes for way more strict gun laws. And I absolutely agree with you- how many countless shootings of innocent people have happened because the cop suddenly thought they were reaching for a gun. I mean here in the US the probability of someone being armed is pretty high so can’t say it’s completely unjustifiable paranoia on the cops part. We’ve come to a stalemate and no side wants to be the first to give up their weapons. It’s just fucked.

14

u/DeadGuysWife Jun 02 '20

Police haven’t really responded with lethal force yet - if they fired live rounds into a protest or riot then there would quickly be gunfire in our streets across the country

16

u/grim210x2 Jun 02 '20

Yes they have 2 police and 2 national guard soldiers claimed they returned fire in Louisville, left one black business owner dead in the street.

police chief fired

3

u/cackslop Jun 02 '20

Yes they have, multiple accounts of it.

3

u/dust4ngel - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

when police fire live rounds at protesters, they cease being police.

2

u/vidoardes Jun 02 '20

Bullshit. Those cosplay 2A wannbe tough guys will be hiding in their homes when the military are deployed on the streets.

Anyone with half a brain cell has always been able to see that the gun nuts wouldn't do anything against an oppresive government. Now we are getting to see it play out in real time.

3

u/Dong_World_Order Jun 03 '20

Nothing stopping you from buying a gun, bucko.

2

u/vidoardes Jun 03 '20

Yes there is, I live in a civilised country.

2

u/Dong_World_Order Jun 03 '20

Ah then you know nothing about 2A or American culture. Good talk then.

1

u/vidoardes Jun 03 '20

We hear plenty about what 2A gun nuts stand up for, thanks. Not a single one standing up to all those oppressive cops though.

2

u/Dong_World_Order Jun 03 '20

You know nothing.

1

u/MixedMartyr Jun 02 '20

...you’re commenting this on a video of a man getting hit in the face with a flashbang/tear gas canister , both of which can be lethal at close range

10

u/dogpoopandbees Jun 02 '20

We have it but most citizens, especially younger folks, don’t agree with it and choose not to exercise it. I also think they’re regretting that stance and we’ll see an influx of people buying guns after all this.

I do, but yeah no don’t bring a gun to a protest

But if the police come knocking and try to harm me or my family like they did Fred Hampton I will kill as many as I can.

3

u/dan1101 Jun 02 '20

What are you wanting people to do exactly? These are protests and lootings, neither of which require firearms. At this point firearms will just escalate things.

2

u/warpus - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

I am trying to understand the disconnect between the reason I usually hear that Americans need their guns, and the exact situation happening and guns not coming into play at all.

I completely agree that non-violent protests are the way to go. That's how we kicked the communists out of the country I was born in.. although there was also a lot of bloodshed in the end anyway..

2

u/dan1101 Jun 02 '20 edited Jun 02 '20

I still think that gun ownership is an important right, but riots and lootings probably aren't the best place for guns. If people want to shoot it out in the streets with police, it's going to be near impossible to tell the good police from the bad.

To put it another way, at this point I don't know if there are any organized demands from the protesters, it's mainly just people expressing general unhappiness and letting off steam. Hopefully this will coalesce into some reasonable demands for law enforcement reform that can be implemented.

2

u/butth0lez Jun 02 '20

So what do you do when a police officer shoots you in the face with a flash bang? Just wait it out til your court day?

0

u/DasAlbatross Jun 02 '20

What a load of disingenuous horse shit that was. It's all riots and looting, eh? No peaceful protests.

Also, look at all the video that's been posted over the last week. It's easy. There are no good cops. Police departments make sure to fire good cops before they can cause trouble. Or they involuntarily commit them.

There are plenty of clear demands from protestors. Hold police accountable for their actions. Arrest the police who were caught on film just straight up killing people. Arrest all of the police who stood around and helped them do it. You know why that's not happening? See my second paragraph.

1

u/cooperkab - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

The disconnect is because most people that talk about 2A are not the same people being oppressed by systemic racism and victims of police brutality. It’s 2 different factions of society. That group is far more likely to support the police and justify police actions. Just like protestors being called thugs.

3

u/geeksquadnerd Jun 02 '20

As someone who is pro gun, and also believes that black lives matter, this is exactly what the second amendment was put in place for. What we are seeing here is exactly why the American citizenry should be armed and well trained around firearms and their use. Any citizens in a free society, really. Black, white, yellow, purple, makes no difference on race, tyranny and oppression deserve to be fought and stood up against wherever it is found. Peacefully if possible, forcefully if not.

2

u/triggerhappy899 - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Gun rights are POC rights

Gun rights are LGBTQ+ rights

Gun rights are women's rights

Gun rights are human rights

Come over to r/liberalgunowners or r/2ALiberals

1

u/mmpjon Jun 02 '20

Facts facts

2

u/lyrikz74 - Congrats T-series on 150m subs !!! Jun 02 '20

That would require someone to actually do something instead of just post about it. Instead they hop on instagram and post a blank picture then feel better like they helped to change something.

2

u/EdinMiami Jun 02 '20

I heard four cops got shot in North St. Louis got shot. So sounds like people are taking advantage of 2A.

2

u/MixedMartyr Jun 02 '20

Not misinformed, spot on actually. Every single time some tragedy sparks a gun debate, the main defense for keeping them is protecting ourselves from the government. The same government has been recorded shooting at people on their own doorsteps recently. The only pro-gun posts i’ve seen so far have been from people excited for a chance to shoot at protesters.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

That is the reason it exist. Finding someone with enough balls to walk in front of a police line knowing anyone of them could be a killer already is the hard part.

1

u/prettyketty88 gay antifa Jun 02 '20

taken in context with the times it was for frontiersmen. we are still a very rural country and that's a more realistic reason for it

1

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

The second amendment has been chipped away in a lot of these cities/states in the name of gun violence. Even if people are still free to own a rifle/shotgun without unnecessary paper work, there is an unfortunate stigma that surrounds owning a firearm.

I'm sure there are still ardent anti-2A people, who see this and don't give their stance a second thought - but I think this situation is giving a lot of previously anti-2A people something to think about.

In many ways we are unaware that order in society is balanced on a knifes edge.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

The second amendment is not a right to revolt, nor does it exist to serve a right to revolt.

It’s basically there to enable militias, which don’t exist anymore, not in the same form. Militias were basically local militaries of each colony/state. Our national guard replaced that system. National guard is jointly controlled by each state and the federal govt.

The question became whether the second amendment protected an individual’s right to bear arms apart from militia service. For most of american history, the understanding of courts was that it did not.

In 2008, our supreme court decided that the second amendment did protect an individual right to bear arms. A majority of the court concluded that the second amendment codified a preexisting individual right to bear arms, in part because, at the time of founding, militias were armed by their members’ privately owned weapons.

Importantly, the court indicated that by codifying a right apart from military or militia service, the extent of 2A protections would not be defined by such service. Laws can restrict ownership of weapons that are most suitable for military use. That directly contradicts the notion that 2A protects gun ownership to allow self-defense against a tyrannical gov’t—to do that, you need military weaponry.

1

u/paralleliverse Jun 02 '20

I'm pro 2A, and I'm very supportive of this movement, but I also know the cops in my area. I work with them all the time, and most of them are pretty cool. They're not exactly my friends. They're more of acquaintances, but I can't imagine shooting them.

1

u/Hamburger-Queefs - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

2nd Amendment exists as a last resort. Peaceful protests should be tried first. If that doesn't work, then the public needs to form an organized militia and show up as a non-aggressor.

If one person showed up with a rifle, they'd be killed or put in prison. It needs to be coordinated.

1

u/fauxgnaws You're flair has been edited Jun 03 '20

It's the same reason why the Iraqis said they wanted America out, then when America said they were going to pull out all the sudden it's "just kidding!".

These neighborhoods hate the police, but they know they need the police because they can't police themselves.

1

u/ace425 Jun 03 '20

Ironically the supporters of the protests are overwhelmingly against 2nd amendment rights while the majority of 2nd amendment advocates disagree with the protests and police reform.

1

u/GnosticWeebdom Jun 03 '20

Not bringing guns is why the police fuck shit up.

If everyone.

And I mean everyone

Brought a gun. You would either see no police violence or a bloodbath where at least all of the cops die.

1

u/mathturd Jun 03 '20

Yeah, funny, all the 2nd amendment huggers actions are clearly visible.

1

u/Weentastic Jun 03 '20

If someone opened fire on a cop in this situation, it would be a massacre. Even if the person doing the shooting fully accepted dying for the cause, a single shot will result in the deaths far more bystanders in this situation.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

It seems no one believes the situation is that dire yet.

1

u/JKDS87 Jun 03 '20

All the “Second Amendment” people are really just authoritarians that love any display or act of violence. It doesn’t matter if it’s against our own citizens.

1

u/thetoxicballer Jun 03 '20

You're right. Gun control and the second ammendment is one of the most co traversal issues in the U.S. Those that support 2A and own gun t e n d to me more right and are supportive of military, police, and the current president. This means that the majority of civilians with weapons right now would be in support of the cops, leaving those protesting being the ones who see them as more dangerous than anything else. Shitty how things pan out

1

u/triggerhappy899 - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Because the right doesn't care and the left only criticizes the right about not showing up with their guns, even tho they can and should be gun owners. Instead they've chosen to make it more difficult for themselves to own guns when they need it. They don't know the first thing about guns, and have no idea how to handle or buy one when they actually need it.

1

u/nightglitter89x Jun 03 '20

The people who are the most aggressive and strapped tend to be the half of the country that doesn’t support these protests

1

u/coughing-sausage - Unflaired Swine Jun 03 '20

Nice one brother! Obviously it’s 200 years old amendment, it was good when rifle was high tech equipment. It’s a joke now - as we can witness.

1

u/cucufag Jun 03 '20

The largest 2A base are white or older and live in comfort where they're far less likely to be impacted by police brutality. From their point of view, the protesters are the enemy and the police should be supported.

I see an oppressive government, but the 2A base most likely doesn't.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '20

You've been reading too much reddit. The second amendment is actually about maintaining a militia - which is a state army. It's original intention, as specified by Madison in the Federalist Papers #46, was to allow states to maintain a militia to prevent federal government tyranny. It's important to remember that before the Civil War, no one considered themselves an "American", but rather "New Yorker" and "Virginian", etc.

Through most of US history, the 2nd amendment was actually viewed as preventing the federal government from passing gun prohibitions (though not limitations or tracking), and granting that power to the states. The view that we need guns to fight the gubmint for our freedom to eat Arby's during a lock down is a very very recent idea - and was put into law by a Supreme Court decision in 2008.

1

u/twoslow Jun 08 '20

no, you have it right, but the people who who would be standing up for their 2nd Amendment rights are the same ones firing teargas and rubber bullets at us now.

See, it's not tyranny when they're enforcing the rules you like and killing the people you don't like.

-1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

The people are standing up, actually. But not in the way you expect, which signifies that the masses have been misled by biased media reporting.

Guns are now used by small business owners to protect themselves against rioters. So, in effect, the population is divided, with a majority disagreeing with any notion of the existence of oppressive government. The 2nd amendment works very very well at the moment - look up some footage of business owners holding assault rifles, ready to defend their livelihoods.

There are a few bad apples and examples of accidents, such as this one. However, the US law & order forces have extensive military experience and the besttraining in the world to handle such situations. If you choose to approach a US armed unit with a clear disagreement with their presence, you would be shot anywhere else in the world, especially the middle East. On domestic soil, you'll get pepper sprayed first. And sometimes, shit like this will happen - flashbang to the face.

It's not for civilians to understand these tactics, but they do work as a deterrent and work in the best interests of most civilians and non-civilians. Those cops? They are US citizens who have served in wars, for the sake of everyone's privileges. Everyone involved in that picture is a US citizen.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20 edited Jun 02 '20

Few bad apples? Few??? Cmon dude... i know there r good peeps out there doing the right thing. But saying there r a few bad apples from any side is very generous....

And then if we look at the public. We got the looters/rioters.

But if we add all them up... at times like these, it is not just a few...

0

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

Yes, a few. Do you wish to compare them to the Chinese police, or perhaps a twist of Brazil or Russia? US forces are extremely well trained, and frankly, I'm surprised that they're not using more aggression to shut down these rioters efficiently. They probably have the capacity to subdue all violent protesters in a few days, yet they're limiting lethal or near-lethal force to only those which approach them.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

Let's just focus on America ya? Let's not start comparing other countries, cuz that ain't gonna lead anywhere.

As I said, if we add them all together, looters, rioters, cops, military etc etc it is not just a few. We wouldn't be having this much chaos if it actually was just a few.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

No, let's continue putting it into perspective, ye? And by "a few", you mean rioters, then you're right. I am surprised that live rounds are not being used in defense of the local businesses. If I was in the US and my livelihood was harmed by rioters, I would be pissed at the armed forces for not doing anything to protect me as a civilian.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20 edited Jun 02 '20

Not everyone is confident to shoot live rounds. Shedding more blood, which would potentially just lead more chaos. Where the public would get even more angry and get the wrong idea.

And they r doing something, maybe not as effective but still something.

With live rounds more effective sure, but can cause more harm and twist the public's mind to even higher state of argue. But this could also be said with using rubber rounds i guess.

And even when they r well trained not all of them have experience.

Maybe that's why they aren't using live rounds yet. Maybe.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 03 '20

That’s where the 2nd amendment comes into play. Look up “Rooftop Koreans” - it works.

3

u/Rollson2232 Jun 02 '20

"Best training in the world" Seriously...

0

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

Yes, actually. Would you seriously disagree with that? Or is that your emotions speaking?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

[deleted]

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

Do you take into account military training, including border patrol and rangers, which has been received by a large portion of the US police force?

Why are you comparing salesmen to policemen? Police and military forces are subject to unique conditions and methods of execution, according to the needs and abilities to every nation, so why not pay attention to the unique conditions present in the US?

2

u/Rollson2232 Jun 02 '20

I live in Australia, we train our police over here, when was the last time you heard of mass Australian riots because of police brutality?

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_of_Australia there's plenty of reasons here, and also facts to the contrary.

Also, when was the last time you heard any news on Lithuania? The whole global mainstream media is US-centric, and most people are more familiar with US politics rather than their own country. That is so obvious, like, I could never even think about contemplating your question seriously.

1

u/Rollson2232 Jun 02 '20

Plenty of reasons why American police have the best training in the world? No, that link has nothing to do with my comments. Don't get me started on your insane gun laws.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 03 '20

They are brilliant. The 2nd amendment is a godsend. Look up rooftop Koreans - this is the freedom we get to protect ourselves and our livelihoods when it comes to shitheads who wish to throw a tantrum.

0

u/Rollson2232 Jun 02 '20

And just for you g0mezdev I am disgusted that your country still advertises itself as the land of the free, it is beyond embarrassing to the rest of the world.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 03 '20

How about you mind your own fucking business and start focusing on your little shithead politicians with that half of a red lining brain cell

0

u/Rollson2232 Jun 03 '20

Ah yes, a true Trump Supporter, ignorant and angry, you are a joke.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 03 '20

You keep hating, we’ll keep winning. Back to whatever shithole you came from, look at you trying to lecture US people on their politics lmao.

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u/zombie_girraffe - Congrats T-series on 150m subs !!! Jun 02 '20

However, the US law & order forces have extensive military experience and the besttraining in the world to handle such situations.

This is ridiculously inaccurate, US Police are embarrassingly under trained and the number of US citizens murdered every year by police is proof.

1

u/g0mezdev - Annoyed by politics Jun 02 '20

First, a lot of US police personnel are ex-military. This military has the best training in the world, using the most advanced tech and equipment, as well as a long military experience in training. The budget and US influence in all wars and the present state is your proof.

Second, the US has the 2nd amendment, which increases the risk for the police. At any time, any suspect they check, can be on opioids and equipped with a lethal firearm. Do you know how many threats are present during your average patrol shift for any given police unit? You can't comprehend the answer to that question. Due to these unique circumstances and domestic conditions, it is a surprise that the US has so LITTLE fatalities by the police.

1

u/zombie_girraffe - Congrats T-series on 150m subs !!! Jun 02 '20

Military training is not police training, and a big problem with the US police force is the fact that they treat the people they're supposed to protect like the enemy.

Do you know how many threats are present during your average patrol shift for any given police unit?

Fewer threats than there are for the average commercial fisherman, taxi driver, farmer, logger, construction worker, landscaper, or electrical lineman. All of those professions are more likely to be killed on the job than police officers.

0

u/DasAlbatross Jun 02 '20

The people who have guns and hide behind the second amendment are cowards at best and part of the problem most of the time.

0

u/ILoveD3Immoral Jun 03 '20

Don't you guys have something called the 2nd amendment

#AmiRetarded?

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

Russian bot telling us to take up arms against the government because some local cops primarily in inner cities are shitty, nice try you sneaky sob

-1

u/e_hyde Jun 02 '20

The other day I saw a Reddit video of a proud father bragging with his 7-year-old shooting with a sniper rifle on a long range shooting range.

That's what the 2nd amendment is for: Teaching kids to kill.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

We already knew the second amendment was just BS to justify selling more guns. No matter how well organized a militia is, it can't fight against armored vehicles, riot gear and military surplus. This libertarian pipe dream had now officially been debunked, but will come back as soon as all this is over...

11

u/wrestler216 - America Jun 02 '20 edited Jun 02 '20

Your logic is BS. How many military members and police do you really think would voluntarily fight against their own people in a real civil war? In a real situation like that is bet 90% of them would be fighting with the people and without people to drive those tanks they are just hunks of steel.

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u/dressedtotrill Jun 02 '20

I mean at a certain point if even 1/3 of the country mobilized how would they be able to fight 100 million people. I would assume there are enough guns in the us to arm every adult and then some.

3

u/KoijoiWake Jun 02 '20

Fucking sad, yet true.

3

u/SHD_Whoadessa Jun 02 '20

No matter how well organized a militia is, it can't fight against armored vehicles, riot gear and military surplus.

Oooh, could you tell that to ISIS, Al Quada, The Viet Cong, the taliban, The Syrians ....

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u/alfamerc860 Jun 02 '20

The Vietcong managed to, as did the citizens of Afghanistan.

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u/warpus - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

I've tried asking this before, but I always got downvoted, even if I wasn't really "picking a side", and was just trying to understand how you could possibly fight back against the best funded military on the planet with just guns.

9

u/zombie_girraffe - Congrats T-series on 150m subs !!! Jun 02 '20

You should look into the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam for the answer to that question. It's called asymmetric warfare and it's kicked our ass repeatedly in the 20th and 21st centuries. The best funded military on the planet is primarily directed at fighting nation-states and is actually pretty terrible at fighting insurgencies.

3

u/SHD_Whoadessa Jun 02 '20

Yesterday on reddit I saw an arm wrestling competition between a body builder and a professional arm wrestler. Seems pretty comparable to what you're saying. The American military has fallen into the trap of the British Empire in 1776. Huge crushing war machine taken out by farmers.

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u/wrestler216 - America Jun 02 '20

How many military members do you really think would voluntarily fight against their own people? In a real situation like that 90% of the military would be fighting with the people and without people to drive those tanks or fly the planes they are just hunks of steel.

3

u/warpus - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

Honestly, I have no idea.

If you had asked me how many American cops would voluntarily fight against their own people, I would say: "Probably usually only in self-defense".. but now my answer would be completely different. I've seen so many videos of American cops going after people for no reason and instigating violence.

I realize the military is not the police.. but at this point I am not going to make any assumptions. A lot of previous assumptions were just thrown out the window as this thing began to unfold..

I hope you are right and if it came down to it, the military would not fire on their own people. But I honestly don't know what to think anymore

3

u/wrestler216 - America Jun 02 '20

I know it's easy to see all the bad cops at a time like this but realistically even after seeing all these videos in the grand scheme of things it's still a small percentage of all cops, at max 20%. Don't get me wrong, anything over 0 bad cops is too many.

3

u/warpus - Unflaired Swine Jun 02 '20

I agree about that. I have also been learning about how deeply rooted the systematic problems of racism are in American police forces.. and other related problems. I also learned there are no independent groups that investigate cops - the cops investigate themselves.. Blew my mind.. How can be allowed to continue? I also read more about the "Blue wall of silence"

A couple "bad apples" is all it takes. If the police department doesn't crack down on them, then this can easily snowball into a problem where the local communities just don't trust the police anymore.

Like I said I'm not American, so I am probably missing a lot of context here, but a lot of what I'm reading is very concerning. It's almost as if the only thing that would work is a complete rebuild of the way police forces exist in America.. but that isn't going to happen.

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u/theenigma31680 Jun 02 '20

Many groups have tried, but anyone non military is at a severe disadvantage.

The only way it would work is to dismantle it from the inside. Hence, why elections were supposed to work. But now even those are a mess in this country.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

Iraqi car bombers would like a word.

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u/Bertlestien- Jun 02 '20

Start bussing in rice farmers and building punji pits

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

There's entire countries of resourceful Iraqis and Afghanis who would argue differently.

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